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Low Fps On The New York Dlc

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by keksman, Mar 26, 2018.

  1. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    How much Fps do you guys have in the new Dlc? I was pretty suprised when I saw how low the Fps Counter was when I started the DLC today for the first time.

    I have constant 60Fps in Rapid Transit and Great Western Express but on the New York Dlc only around 25-30 Fps with the same Graphic settings.
     
  2. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Active Member

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    do you have any engine.ini tweaks?
     
  3. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I think that the question to ask is not so much "How many fps am I getting?" as "How is my visual experience?" On the new NY DLC, my visual experience is just fine. Fps isn't everything!
     
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  4. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    Actually yes, Viewdistance is on 20. Im going to test it with a lower Viewdistance if its actually not a common issue. Still weird to me though how theres more then a 30fps difference between the Dlcs with the same Settings on my system.
     
  5. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Active Member

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    I actually get better more stable frames on NEC than GWR. Rapid Transit probably is the most optimized for me.
     
  6. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Active Member

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    Try 3 - anything higher begins to eat fps and doesn't actually add much in terms of visuals.
     
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  7. Rudolf

    Rudolf Active Member

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    Why do you need 60fps? You must have extreme fast sight. Humans normally will not see more than 25fps. I run NEC at an average of 35-40fps, which is good and comparable to the other routes.
     
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  8. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    Sure humans see more then 25fps... i can sure tell you if a game runs on 25fps or on 60fps, its definately smoother if you have more fps.
    You even see a difference from 60fps to 100fps
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  9. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    It does actually to me. I have tried it though on 4 and the Fps only on this Dlc remains far lower then in any of the other Dlcs. With View Distance on 4 I even have around 70-90 Fps on Rapid Transit but still around 25-35 in the New York Dlc. Really weird to me how this isnt a common issue...

    Let me guess.. You never played on a 144hz Monitor with more then 60Fps?
     
  10. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    No more than 25fps? Are you sure about that? If that was true then everything would seem choppy when moving around. Tell me you can’t see the difference between 25, 30 and 60fps...
     
  11. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    While it's true that you don't need 60 fps and everything over 30 but under 60 doesn't detract too much from the experience this is PR bullshit. You can even see the difference between 60 and higher FPS, otherwise there would be no need for 144 Hz monitors.

     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2018
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  12. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    You can see how much Fps you have by pressing F3 ingame
     
  13. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Active Member

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    You can have the default FPS in all games on Steam.
    In settings, see the screen below.
    Capture.PNG
     
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  14. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    This is a common misunderstanding. Humans require at least 24 frames in a given second in order to see a scene in motion, enough to fool the brain into perceiving that a series of still 2D images are depicting motion. Any less than 24 frames and we would be able to tell that the moving scene was made up of a number of single sequential frames.

    The reality is that the more frames you can squeeze into that second would produce a clearer moving scene that would be "perceived" to be smoother overall. The human eye can perceive smooth motion to thousands of frames per second and even where a frame has dropped - as this is effectively a key characteristic of the brain in that it notices when things do not appear to be physically correct - anyone who's ever had a faulty fluorescent tube (even though it might look ok to everyone else) and got a headache as a consequence will know this all too well. We all grow up interacting with the physical world and therefore our brains learn how things should behave and we instinctively notice when things don't seem quite right.

    Some people are better at spotting frame rate deficiencies than others. This again is a key characteristic of how our brains work and interpret what we're seeing. Some people may be quite happy with a lower frame rate as their brain is interpreting the smoothness of the motion differently than those who feel they're not quite getting the cue that things are working right.

    It's worth noting that a sizeable portion of our brain is dedicated purely to interpreting what we see and is actually bigger than any other part that's dedicated to our other senses - so it seems perfectly reasonable to me as to why people think frame rate is quite important.

    Also, on the actual topic of the thread - thanks very much for the feedback on frame rates. It is really interesting to get some feedback on your perspectives as to how this looks over the different routes in TSW. I'd really like to get some more thoughts on this from you guys so please keep it coming but I'll raise this as something to investigate further here.

    Best, Steve
     
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  15. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Active Member

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    Steve, one thing ive noted, and shown matt is the ground textures on the NEC route - there appears to be either some clipping or overlay going on creating an ugly appearance, Matt is active in our discord and numerous pics have been posted of the issues :) [​IMG]
     
  16. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Great to hear you've shared this with Matt already but I'll get it logged down just to be on the safe side. Thanks for sharing that with me Naydog :)

    Best, Steve
     
  17. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    I will say that I can get 60 fps plenty of times in NEC using default settings, but looking at AI Amtrak trains is a reliable way to slow things down to 30 fps. Not sure why that is.
     
  18. Jef-F

    Jef-F Active Member

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    Yep, today I was down to 13 fps with two of them in sight + my 45-car freight train + snow. GPU isn't the bottleneck judging by its load sitting at around 30% at that moment.
     
  19. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    Agree on the whole GPU not being the limiting factor here. GPU load seems to correlate with FPS pretty well, even in NEC. High FPS is high GPU load, low FPS is low GPU load-so it’s not like the GPU is being overwhelmed. I imagine it’s another case of CPU usage optimization not being good enough, since my CPU never goes above like 60% with TSW-and when it is that high, the game is lagging. Sounds like it only knows how to use 60% of the CPU and completely ignores the other 40%.
     
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  20. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    I'm not sure why people seem to think that not running their CPU and GPU at 100% load seems to equate to not getting the full performance out of the hardware - I can assure you the reality is actually quite different :)

    60% load on the CPU simply tells me that your CPU is comfortably handling all of the demands being placed on it and is therefore not deferring instructions. 100% load would tell me that your CPU is actually being pushed to its limits and it is highly likely that instructions are being deferred - a clear indicator that your settings are set way too high and you should bring them back a little.

    Best, Steve
     
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  21. Jef-F

    Jef-F Active Member

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    TrainSim-Steve
    we make these assumptions because when TSW runs with low FPS, we see that it isn't limited by GPU performance (in case we are discussing now). It is very unlikely to be limited by RAM throughput either. CPU is the logical conclusion then. And when we see it it is barely utilized too, we think that is because your simulation engine or UE is bad at multithreading and bottlenecked by its single-threaded nature somewhere.

    You could ask tech guys what is the limiting factor there and post the real reason, but I bet you wont be allowed to.
     
  22. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    But Steve, that does not answer the question as to why the game could be at 30 fps with only 50% CPU load and 30% GPU load-there is plenty more power in that situation to do more frames, but the game isn’t using it. Something is stalling other than the hardware, as if the game, not any computer parts, is what is pushed to the limits.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2018
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  23. Jef-F

    Jef-F Active Member

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    It does. If you have, for instance, quad-core CPU, main game thread could be occupying one core fully, that would count as 25% CPU load in OS. Another 5% can be occupied by different insignificant game threads, like UI update, sound and whatnot. It cannot magically "use more power", it must specifically be programmed to do calculations in several threads in parallel and synchronize them. It is quite tricky to do in games specifically because of... reasons.
     
  24. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    I was referring to what Steve said in his post as not explaining it, not what you said. Completely agree that lack of multithreading of the heavy hitting CPU users (physics probably) is hurting performance.

    As much as 60% CPU load may be comfortable for the CPU, it’s definitely not comfortable for the game!
     
  25. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Active Member

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    Baffling how people can even post something like this. This is almost equivalent to flat earthers...
     
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  26. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Games like this need to run at 60fps otherwise with everything going on in the background it would to slow the game down and make it unplayable. But in NEC 30-40fps for this guy might be okay, but there is a major difference with this route there nothing else going on to take away from the frame rate. There is little train traffic, no cars and very little people once this were to be added then he will be wanting better frame rates.
     
  27. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Indeed, that's exactly it, and actually multithreading is notoriously difficult to do because it can have a massive impact on performance as a whole - it's one of the reasons why it takes so long to do because it's inherently complex.

    Effectively, there's more work being done on how UE4 handles multithread loads - at the moment, UE4 is limited to using only four cores despite the fact that your CPU may be able to provide more. I'm not 100% on this but based on what I've been reading across Epic Game's forums, it seems to imply that it is limited in this way. I do believe, however, that this is going to improve with successive core updates and we'll naturally look to import those improvements into TSW as we move forward.

    We are aware of the frame rate differences you are all experiencing - we just need more information from you guys as to any key areas on the route that seems to be worse than others, any particular circumstances you're finding has a bigger impact than others, etc. The more information you can give us, the better the chance of finding the root cause.

    All I'm saying here is that we need more information to assist us in tracing the problem properly - I'm not saying it's not this, that or the other but merely attempting to help you understand more about how these things work, correlations between loads placed on CPU and GPU is not a key indicator of a fault but actually more indicative of how well your hardware is coping with the demands. We are actively looking into the framerate issue, we just need more information to help us look at which of the components are more active in those areas to help narrow down our search.

    Hope this helps :)

    Best, Steve
     
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  28. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    It would be helpfuil if you could give us more details on how to do this. Better still would be if DTG built in some diagnostics into TSW that we could activate to collect additional info from our systems and TSW itself.
     
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  29. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Active Member

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    I maintain almost a solid 60 on the route but whenever I enter Penn (come out the tunnel but not at the platforms I drop to 23 - once I reach the platform it rises to 45....something about that area between tunnel exit and platforms is killing my fps

    And AI - they still kill frames, one ai train can knock 10-20 fps off you
     
  30. TrainSim-Steve

    TrainSim-Steve Staff Member

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    Sure Sam, I'm not sure how easy or difficult it would be to build in some diagnostics but I'll certainly mention it to the team.

    Essentially, whilst you're driving along, with the frame rate counter up, capture a screenshot and post it here (or better yet a video) when things start to look a bit choppy or the frame rate dips to a point you're not happy with.

    It would also be useful to let us know if you're doing anything specific at the time, for example, you were adjusting a control in the cab or pressed a particular key, applying brakes or putting the power up a little, or something came up on the displays in the cab (signalling command), an AI train was approaching, you were slowing down for a station stop, coupling up to cars, etc.

    Hope this helps.

    Best, Steve
     
  31. NAYDOG

    NAYDOG Active Member

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    just look at any AI train - Ive tested it by looking at my cab floor = 60fps - looking up - 60fps - looking at an AI train = 28-34 - so im pretty confident in AI trains needing some major optimisations, as hopefully stations will start to become busier.
     
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  32. keksman

    keksman Active Member

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    I always loose around 20-25Fps whenever a AI Train passes by, no matter what Im doing in the Train.
    I assume it has something to do with them being as extensive structured as the Players Train? Would it be possible to replace those detailed Trains with less Frame consuming models? Would probably mean that the Players have to wait out a loading Time everytime they want to take over a Train but Id rather have that than loosing a ton of Fps whenever a AI Train passes by or when I drive past a Yard or something.

    Small other question: Do you Guys have a System in your office actually capable of running this new Dlc at Max Settings with constant 40-50 Fps? I feel like I should be able to with a 1080ti and a oc 7820x but unfortunately Im not.
     
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  33. SimonM719

    SimonM719 Member

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    My 1080ti 5930k does, ultra settings and 3440x1440 res, 60 to 35 but drops to 25 in new york Penn?
     
  34. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Active Member

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    That wouldn't work given the nature of TSX's free roam, where you can leave your train at any station and then operate the next train arriving on yours or another platform. I get these frame drops too, but I'm content with them since the freedom to control other trains in that instance makes for an entertaining experience.
     
  35. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I have no change in FPS when going between Ultra and Low settings. I get FPS in upper 20s.
     

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