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Maybe Quality Assurance Does Find And Report Bugs...

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by FeralKitty, Oct 11, 2020.

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  1. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I was reading an interesting TidBITS article about Apple, and this paragraph caught my eye:

    “In my years working at Apple, I developed a deep respect for Apple’s Software Quality Assurance (SQA) engineers. They do a tremendous job. When software ships with bugs, it’s usually not because SQA didn’t report a problem, but because the schedule didn’t allow time to track it down and fix it...”

    If a large, successful company like Apple ships software with bugs because of a deadline, perhaps we could be a bit more graceful towards DTG’s QA department who probably finds more bugs than we realize and wishes there was time for the issues to have been fixed.

    Thanks to DTG’s QA people for all you do, and sorry for any undeserved blame you get.
     
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  2. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Yea, DTG QA is fine. There's little doubt they notice and report the bugs. DTG just makes a conscious decision to launch and fix it (or not) later. It's been their MO for...well forever.
     
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  3. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it’s the fault of any of the actual developers or QA who actually care about the game, it’s the higher ups and management who decide if and when to release a product.

    I doubt they actually care about the quality of the final product, all they care about is making the developers work their socks off to create as many products as possible for £££.

    No wonder DTG has such a bad reputation. They have no one else to blame apart from themselves.
     
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  4. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Do they? Because you say and think so? What do other companies think of them? What do banks think of them?

    It’s as if there’s no bigger picture, and narrowly focusing on some inadequacy should define who or what they are.

    Are you or I greater than the mistakes we make, or is a particular mistake what defines us? If you or I wouldn’t want to be labeled by one singular shortcoming in our lives, perhaps we should resist doing the same to them?
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  5. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Have a read of reviews, steam forums, these forums and other social media. Yes, you'll find some die hard fans, but the reputation that DTG hold is not great.
     
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  6. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I take it you're new to DTG? if youd been around anytime longer than a year or too you'd know what DTG's reputation is and has been for years. spoiler - theyre not known for high quality work, the fact most of their first party TSxxx releases are met with "AP pack when?" tells you alot.

    But I get it, you're new to the block.
     
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  7. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Group A players think DTG's reputation is good. Group B players thinks DTG's reputation is bad. But the world is made up of far more than player groups A and B.

    If a vocal minority were all it took to determine what kind of people we are, we'd all have bad reputations.

    Perhaps DTG has a reputation in the larger world view that might differ from what some in the community may think?

    (I don't think the forum is toxic or hostile or anything. But it does seem that we like to be back-seat drivers, and somehow know how to run companies better than the people who currently do that job. Those decisions likely aren't as easy as we seem to think.)
     
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  8. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    to be realist for a second -

    the people who like DTG are here, the people who dislike DTG completely largely arent here, ask most PC gamers "what do you think of DTG, the train sim devs" id say ALOT would say "the ones with £6000+ of DLC" - they arent known for anything outside of this niche crowd we're part of. theyre known pretty much only for the amount of DLC, nothing more.

    take from the people that know DTG abit more than that - the original PC crowd, from that Id say a majority consider their work sloppy. People play DTG content because they have too, they then apply community made patches, enhancements etc to make it as non-DTG as possible.

    now take those of us here, the forum will be pro-DTG for the majority, because - why would people who dislike DTG bother posting here or caring about their product anymore? those of us you do see complain are the ones who have some form of hope better things are coming....there used to be alot more of us but alot have left and been replaced by new players, who havent put up with DTG yet.

    noone is right, noone is wrong, end of the day TSW was promised as something it isnt, and wont be - but its found its own crowd. its just a shame the route it took to find it, it had to abandon its roots and original fans to get there.

    Im sure a few of you here, LM I know for sure does - will remember the "big reveal" and the rest of the fallout. that was the day TSW as what it was promised to be died.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  9. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    First you ask me if I'm new, then you tell me that I'm new. ;)

    I've apparently been around long enough to know what some people think of DTG. But I've not been on this world long enough to become cynical. I'm still an idealist who would like to think we could still be a bit more kind and compassionate toward the people working at DTG, despite any shortcomings they might continue to make.

    I enjoy driving the trains. I enjoy the scenery. Shouldn't simple pleasures like that be enough, rather then me being jaded about the quality of their work?
     
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  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Can you be any more patronising?!

    If they are so bad why have you even got the sim? If they have that bad a reputation why have you given them money?

    I have had their products since Rail Simulator days and whilst they are not perfect, the enjoyment I have got out of their products far outweighs the bad points.
     
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  11. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    Take it this way :
    While developing = $0
    Releasing DLC = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    so for software companies in general fixing many bugs before release is not a priority as there is no money coming in, once the software (DLC) is release money is coming in, and then it is time to fix bugs
     
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  12. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    I dont really care for your feelings, you're an avatar on a online forum - just like me.

    we're not going to get along and see eye to eye, and who says I paid for my copy? sometimes people buy you things, doesnt mean you play it, but it does me I have an interest in where it goes.
     
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  13. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well I am sure now you have read his/her lecture you will feel suitably equipped to go into the world and bash DTG at every opportunity and seemingly hate this unusable sim even though you still buy DTG for it.
     
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  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I just wonder where you got all that from? This forum is more anti-DTG I would say and I suspect there is a silent majority playing TSW and TS1 who don't come anywhere near here.

    As for the $6000 of DLC for TS1, it is called variety and choice, you don't need to buy it all, unless you are incredibly stupid.

    Still I shall remember to come to you in future when I want advice and expert knowledge regarding train simulators!
     
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  15. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    You're a person, not an avatar. They're a person, not an avatar. DTG is made up of people.

    Let's please try to be respectful of others and of DTG (even when we don't think they deserve it). Personal attacks aren't helpful or welcome.
     
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  16. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Or have nothing better to do with your money!
     
  17. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Lol yes I guess. Maybe if you won the lottery or something.
     
  18. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Why does it matter what other companies or banks think of them? It's the consumer that buys their products, not the bank.
     
  19. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Reputation matters very much if you are a business, especially if you want to borrow money from said bank or want a credit account with said company.
     
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  20. Lombra

    Lombra Well-Known Member

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    You're of course free to feel however you want, but the comparison to Apple upsets me.

    First of all, don't compare to other companies. At least not as your sole argument. Why does everything need to be judged in relative terms? This means that something can only be positive if there's something else that's negative, and vice versa. Then we can just take random lousy developer and claim that "at least Dovetail aren't as bad as those guys" and be done with it.

    Always judge things on their own merits.

    Even then, comparing to Apple still doesn't make sense. Apple makes much more complex software. (more bugs) They also have many times more employees. (more bugs fixed) It might balance out compared to Dovetail in the end, or it might not.
     
  21. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    That wasn't the intent.

    What drew my attention to the paragraph was that QA finds bugs that can't be fixed in time (and we should be more understanding of that situation, rather than assuming QA doesn't find bugs and being critical of them).
     
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  22. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘rather than assuming QA doesn't find bugs and being critical of them‘

    The problem is that you don’t really understand how systems teams find, handle and resolve bugs. This isn’t some team playing the game to find problems it’s a much more structured exercise. It also ignores that programmers will do their own testing, teams will do integration testing and there should be plans around regression testing when problems are found and resolved. QA is just another layer in the effort and it’s not intended to be a hit and miss effort. Layers of people are doing testing and responsibility for releasing software is again a team effort. Products with bugs in don’t get released because QA say so, the Project And Product managers will also have a vote.

    QA may not be finding all the issues they should but that also implies that the programmers and teams haven’t tested their work properly. Quality isn’t something that’s ‘nice to get to’. In the Commercial world many projects have interfacing systems (which can be changing themselves) which makes testing even more difficult. DTG don’t have that issue as each DLC is a system in itself. Their task isn’t that hard by comparison.

    Why should we be more understanding if the situation? DTG have had quality issues as long as I can remember. It should have been fixed a long time ago. It’s effort, but it’s what software houses do and what we, as customers, ‘pay’ to have done. If they don’t have enough time or resources to rest properly then add a pound or dollar to each product and use that money to fund a decent quality program. Most would happily pay that additional cost for better quality software.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020
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  23. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    You know it’s Sunday when discussions get a bit lively and personal on the TSW forum.
     
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  24. Lombra

    Lombra Well-Known Member

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    Okay, sure, we can be more lenient with the QA people, but this is essentially semantics, then. When people speak of poor QA, they simply mean that there are bugs... it doesn't matter whether that's a fault of the QA team or someone else.

    It's the same thing when people say "don't blame the devs, they're not in charge". Everyone knows that, it's just a way to address some entity that's believed to be responsible.
     
  25. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Ah yes, the community is upset because the game is full of bugs and problems, but hey, at least the bank lends them money. Cool.

    Really what is your point, my man? People have been complaining about the reputation of DTG for years now, and you're trying to defend it by saying "oh but what do the banks think"?
     
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  26. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    I don’t believe the game is full of bugs and problems. While there are issues, I think that much of it is still playable and enjoyable.

    As for DTG, I’m glad they’re still working on routes, locos, and bug fixes. I hope they are doing well financially, and will be around for a long time.

    To be fair, I was the one who brought up banks, and my point was not to defend DTG’s reputation but to suggest that there’s more to a company’s reputation than merely what some gamers think of them. It matters what their employees think of DTG, it matters what their creditors think of DTG, etc.

    We should strive to not be so narrow-minded that what we think is more important, or all that matters.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2020
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  27. Medellinexpat

    Medellinexpat Well-Known Member

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    ‘It matters what their employees think of DTG’

    if you look at Glassdoor, a site where people rate their employer DTG used to get some pretty awful reviews. One of the common complaints was not being given enough time to produce quality work and that the pay was poor. Glassdoor has it’s drawbacks though, employees who have left unhappily don’t tend to write stellar reviews. However the reviews that were posted didn’t suggest a happy ship. It’s also difficult to measure things like turnover but the role of looking after this forum has had multiple incumbents over the past couple of years.

    So at best lets give that one a ‘don’t know’

    As for their banking ‘rating’ who knows but they were borrowing I believe at one time from Private Equity and potentially using the back catalogue as collateral.

    Wikipedia (again a flawed resource) says in summary

    ‘Dovetail Games has been criticised for their pricing, bug fixing and overall communication with their community, which improved slightly due to a Discord server, where users can ask questions to staff.’
     
  28. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I suggest you brush up on your comprehension skills. I never said such a thing and I wasn't defending anyone!

    You asked why does it matter what banks and other companies think of them, I answered. I suggest you read what people write not what you want to think people are saying.
     
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  29. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    I'm locking this one here as it's become an opportunity for those with differing opinions to lay into each other.

    Two notes however -
    No. This is not acceptable. Everyone who conducts themselves in accordance with the rules of this forum should expect to be treated decently by other posters, even when you disagree with them. If that's too hard for some people, they will find themselves removed from the forum.

    The challenge with finding community managers is that the right people are extremely hard to find. The "dream" community manager has experience with the game (before arriving) and experience of working with a demanding community on a day to day basis. We've tended to have CMs who tick one or other box historically. As far as staff turnover is concerned, it's probably the position that is rehired most frequently in the whole company.
     
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