Midland Mainline - Skyhook Feedback

Hello All,

Firstly a quick introduction,

I have just joined Skyhook as CTO (Chief Technical Officer). Like all of you on this forum I am a dedicated (rabid!) railway fan. I grew up spending my childhood cab riding Deltics (I was on the last train to Kings Cross), chasing around on Class 40 railtours (any of you guys were on the famed Christmas Cracker tours too?) and dashing around all over the UK. My family come from a railway background, stretching back to LNER days. I also have spent my entire career in simulation development.

So, down to the meat and potatoes of this thread. Everyone at Skyhook are absolutely committed to making this route the best it can be. So many of you are really enjoying this route. We have had fabulous feedback.

However, I agree that there are issues that need addressing. The headline is that we have developers doing that as I type. I have taken the unusual step of connecting with you all directly as we are very serious about creating something that we are proud of and something that you all enjoy, that includes followup support. Note, I am the technical person at Skyhook, this is not placatory PR.

I believe that the team on Midland have worked incredibly hard and done an amazing job (I love the 158 especially). We have had many people tell us already just how much they are enjoying MML.

Yes, issues have become apparent. We are already working on a patch that addresses many of the items that you have all flagged (we started this before release, for reasons I can outline in a follow up post). I will be totally transparent and say that some of the posts from you guys have pointed out some things that are new to us. I have asked that they be added to our post-release patch list. We are genuinely grateful for all of the feedback.

The beta team at Dovetail have been fantastic and I know some have posted here. Our QA team led by Cayne at Skyhook are also coordinating constantly. Unfortunately with the best will in the world, bugs creep in to projects, especially ones with so many moving parts and complexity as this one, releasing across multiple platforms.

I have one wish that everyone enjoys this route (I am a fan of both TSC and TSW and bought all the UK routes myself before taking this role at Skyhook), We are going to do everything in our power to address issues that are affecting people.

I am happy to discuss with all of you in this thread (although keep it civil please) and provide feedback.

Bottom line is, we care just as much as you guys do about TSW and are passionate about our products.

Jane - CTO, Skyhook Games

 

Thanks for posting Jane. I hope the responses from the forum are as well considered and constructive in return

 

Many things are not good enough, you'll find them pretty quickly on other posts. Most of them are simple things that I would presume made it into the final build due to time constraints set by having to release on arbitrary deadlines. If these things were patched (and for some maybe the announcement of a route extension or more rolling stock in a pack to come later) the route would be made so much better. Most of the modelling on the trains is superb, I have noticed night lighting on the HST is a bit funky. I can elaborate more on things I have spotted so far.
Advice for next release: take your time!

 

Now, that´s what I call a good customer communication. Great initiative!

The only thing you have to do now is walk the talk. And my bets are all on a happy sim community if you do so.

 

Welcome to the bear pit - I mean forum.

Its great to hear that you are taking the communities concerns seriously and are working on patch. This is a route I want to own and enjoy so I really hope the actions behind this post live up to it so I can make this route part of my collection.

 

Thank you Jane it's nice to get communication. Let's hope the patch is a good one and then I will purchase.

 

I'm curious to see what'll become of this. I've been very critical of Skyhook in the past, but I'm more than willing to give it another shot if the quality improves. This is certainly a step in the right direction!

 

158
❌Guards button label wrong
❌The local door closers along with the rest of the doors .
❌The instrument light switch doesn't turn off . (It has no effect ie of it on )
❌The blue notification light above the AWS doesn't work like it should it .(doors releaseed when lit)
❌People stand behind the cab door so you can't get out .
❌ Fault lamp test doesn't light up when pressed.
❌ The guards buzzer in the cab should light up when pressed.
❌ The DRA could be made a little brighter as it's not that. Dim in real life.
❌The window wipers are a bit weak for heavy rain
❌ They is no door chime a few seconds before the doors a realised
❌ Pressing the sand button should light up as well.

HST (I haven't really played it much so might not get everything but this is what I have noticed)
❌I'm not sure on this one but it seems like the hst is little low to the ground. The doors look really close to the ground (maybe some one else can explain more on this one as the camera just seems a bit high even when your insides walked around (
❌The CDL lights are always on when doors are locked as or the door unlocked lights


The route.
❌ Beeston is missing a yellow mile post on P2
Nottingham coming in is missing a AWS gap post



Also is it possible to add a few more AI trains ie more trains going to places or even deporting for off the map ie a train for the segness platform.



Also I did notice I finished one of the newwoek castle runs and the train whent towards the Robbin hood line instead of going past the right way which is sright on past east croft .

 

Thank you for coming on to the forum to talk to us. Fundamentally I like the route and the trains supplied, the bugs are irritating but I tend to expect them with new releases and I believe most of them will be fixed as you have undertaken to do.

Are you able to comment on the timetable however, as there are many services missing which is a source of frustration and I am not sure whether to keep the route as it stands.

 

Thanks for reaching out to the community. If you take onboard all of the feedback, I’m sure MML could be a great route. I want to own it, but actions speak louder than words.

 

Pipe, I absolutely agree with you. I will post shortly on progress so far.

 

thank you for this. I have passed on to our people to compare against our internal list. I genuinely appreciate you sharing. I will comment on your other stuff shortly

 

Thankyou jane-skyhook for your response to our grievances.
I so much wanted this route, and I still do.
However I will only purchase it, if you do as Pipe suggests and Walk the Talk. I just simply can't afford to throw away £30
with just hope that the issues will be fixed?
I'm also not happy that sections of this route have been made out of bounds to the player!
Take Ratcliffe power station. What on earth was going through the planners heads with the decision to not use this monumental asset as part of the routes scenarios? It would have given the player more freight runs like coal and machinery deliveries.

 

I haven't personally bought the route due to feedback currently but it is definitely on my radar like a few of the other posts above I do want to own the route, Especially with the 158. So its nice to see you have personally take the time to come onto the forums and connect with us directly

Will definitely be keeping an eye on the route and upcoming patches so I hope Skyhook can follow it up well and make the route live up to the potential.

 

Hands up, the timetable is too thin. I have asked the guys to look at this. To quickly explain the reasoning, we have built the route with numerous expansions in mind, from route expansions, new timetable stuff with new traction, freight services and a whole host of items. We have created hooks in the route for extensions and so many things.

Caveat - This does not mean that these things come to pass, that is a commercial call (I am tech!) but we have so many ideas. So being totally transparent, the timetable fell in to that list of things we would like to add. Short answer though I agree with you on the timetable and I have asked that to be looked at, which is now happening. I just wanted to share the mindset that led to the thin timetable. I agree, I think we went a little too thin.

all the best
Jane

 

Hello Jane,

I really think you should read down this forum and pick out the bugs people have raised.

https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...e-leicester-to-derby-nottingham.64765/page-25

there is a chance for this dlc to be great if these bugs are addressed

 

Thanks Jane for that response. That sounds positive even with the caveat applied. I shall enjoy the route and see what comes to pass. .

 

I only had a chance to drive the HST last night on the training centre, what I saw was both power cars has the same number (43061) and all carriages were Coach A and they also had the same number as the power cars.

 

jane-skyhook
You and your team should be rightfully proud of your product.
A silent majority enjoy it quite a bit while a vocal minority is calling for rebellion.
As a newbie in TrainSims (after my experience with MS Train Simulator back then...) i came to expect that things will get fixed and not abandoned. And i wouldn't want to be called naive and be proven wrong.

Don't read through threads of people complaining about a product that they didn't even buy or got refunded in the sentiment of induced rage... You won't learn about bugs there because bug reports are buried in endless complaining.

An obvious thing many people mentioned:
❌Class 158: Awkward reflection in windshield (was seen in the stream and mentioned but not touched/removed for release).

 

Can we have an ETA for the patch and what will the first fixes be?

Thank you for coming forward

 

Heya Marc, I saw this about 5 minutes after release and a groan spread around my desk. I think people thought I had appendicitis Good news though, this is already on our fixed list.

 

Thank you for kindly responding! I will address bugs and patches in a post I am about to write for you guys.

 

Hi and welcome jane-skyhook .

So just to echo others views.. the timetable needs additions with the current stock, make it more lively. The problem you have currently is that someone could complete these services in less than a month and that's it. I mean if you are a free roamer like me, you'll sit at a station and 1 train per hour is present, maybe 30 mins each way. Please do action this as it is an important factor to some people's purchases.

Also, there are some speed posts that are in the wrong place or have mixed speeds attached, so if you use a speed HUD, it offers different speeds to the speed post.

Anything else like scenery and bugs, other people may need to answer who have a list.

From my personal perspective (and echoed by others), please do apply an increased and enhanced timetable. If you do need reference to this, I can locate that and provide it to you. The HST's can certainly sit in for Meridian services on this route.

Oh.. and please revisit all stations to apply the correct/missing stop markers...

Cheers.

 

Hi

Firstly i like the route here, there are a lot of positives and i like the variety of service patterns from the 158 and 43.

There are a few issues i've experienced so far, such as:

- Emergency brake applications in two locations when driving with AWS enabled.. one on the approach to Nottingham station and one on the northbound fast line between Leicester and East Midlands Parkway.

- Cannot hear AWS sounds when using external camera on Class 158

- I drive using the external camera view, positioned on the front nose of the train looking ahead at the track. On almost all overhead signal gantries between Leicester and East Midlands Parkway on the fast (HST) lines, passing under these gantries using external cameras is instantly makes the view distort and shift, as if there are invisible barriers at these gantries, could this be looked into please? This occurs when using external view cameras.

- There are also a lot of signals (mostly on the eastbound Derby to Nottingham route) that do not have AWS ramps on signal approaches.

- A lot of speed restrictions are out of sync with the speed boards.

Hope some of these issues could be fixed (especially the external camera issue passing under signal gantries for me personally) as the route has the potential to be a great one!

Thanks
Katia

 

Thanks for your message. I have noticed these discrepancies and bugs that really do affect the driveability and immersion of the sim and it does seem to have forced people to get refunds

class 158

❌ door close button in vestibule areas incorrect texture (shows open)

❌guards local close does not do its job and all buttons in the guards panel are wrongly labelled do the wrong functions (for example guard buzzer operates local close)

❌DRA too light is too bright

HST

❌ there is no delay between opening the power controller and the engine picking up. This prototypical to a VP185 engined power car.

❌the mk3 TGS (guards coach) coach A window is incorrect and does not have white window in reality. It is transparent as this where the guard hangs out of on departure and contains the CDL panel on the wall adjacent to the door.

❌I can’t sit down in any of the mk3 coaches

❌the logos on the coaches are raised off the bodyside

Route

❌random TPWS interventions near Leicester and Nottingham

❌the approach control simulated is totally incorrect and the berth track circuit to clear the signal is only ever in rear of the AWS magnet of the signal which is protects

❌the TPWS overspeed is simulated incorrectly and causing intermittent interventions. The emergency brake being applied at the yellow before even reaching the arming loop (first) OS sensor before the red in the next section. Even in cases of TPWS+ this would not happen. This makes the simulator completely undriveable

❌platforms are misaligned and are zigzagged is some places. The ends being the clear giveaway.

 

Thanks Jane, loving the communication. Personally I'm enjoying the route although I'm not as much of an expert on trains as many on here, but there is one bug I've experienced which is the HST emergency brake not releasing, unless I've done something wrong.

 

Based on this attitude, I am now ready to purchase this route.

 

Bugs and Patches and Release Candidates.

With the best will in the world I cannot give an ETA for the patch as we are still collating everything to address and the whole team want us to do this properly. I will happily give updates and ongoing feedback. I want this patch out to you all as rapidly as possible, but not to create more issues or miss key items. So please bear with me and the team as I want to play this carefully and diligently. Please keep feeding back to us.

In terms of how many patches we have addressed so far, roughly around 100 items have already been dealt with. We have been working on the patch since before release. Why since before release? why not in the release?

Without breaking confidentiality (I want to be in a job next week), there is a lead time from our issuing a release candidate to it shipping for you guys. This is because of certifications and requirements and other commercial issues with people such as Steam, Sony etc. What that means is we "release" quite a while before you guys see the product. This is also why the build you saw on the stream, was behind our internal build. We couldnt for example, see something on the live stream and have it in the release candidate which had already been submitted some time before.

Between our sending off the release candidate and public release, other issues came to light, which we started addressing immediately. That process is ongoing with over 100 issues already addressed or in progress (including my personal one I wanted fixing, the strange windscreen reflection on the 158!)

So there is a lag in the publishing process due to the nature of all of the partners involved. Which means what you see we have put in "the pipe" some time before you guys get to see it. This is why we have already addressed a large number of issues.

We will get you guys a list of all issues addressed just as soon as our QA people and devs etc are assured of the quality of each fix and stability.

Again, all that waffle means that we saw issues on the release candidate shortly after it left us, we have already diligently addressed around 100 items. We are working on more as I type and will report back to you guys whenever I have firm detail as I dont want to accidentally mislead on the status of any fix until we are satisfied with the fix quality.

Jane

 

It is not you, we have seen this and currently under investigation with our devs. We think we have a handle (brake handle? bad pun) on what is going on and will report back soon.

 

Welcome to the jungle, only thing I’d say is the glare in the windscreen, more AI services, freight services, Speed on the HUD and the in game signs don’t match up and TPWS is doing some strange things, and dsd is broken in the hst and the AWS is in the wrong place, and some floating signs at nottingham(blame the sheriff) but apart from that good route

 

Brilliant thank you lol.

 

I think one thing that developers should probably reiterate is, that if they had their way every product would be perfect, but every product would take 10 times as long to make, and they would go bust.
People need to remember that the developers don't control the release timetables, and they have to have a product ready to ship when they are told too.

 

There's been a few issues with the 158 tutorial I have found. When starting up the cab there's no indication to change the headlights which there really should be.
Then there's no indication to turn off the master key when leaving the cab to change ends.
And there is nothing to mark where you need to go when you change can ends until you get into the rear carriage.
The wheels are incredibly loud for some reason.
There's a very strange sudden change in the audio for the engines with no wind up when you push straight into notch 7, the same occurs at low speed when changing from notch 2-3.
And there's no door opening alarm.

I will also say the textures generally need looking at again to add some level of depth and wear (even a little grime on the exterior would go a very long way). The door to the cab when open to the passenger compartment makes it look like there's no partition between the dorr and frame which look very strange.

 

Really pleased to read this. Thank you, Jane.

I'm loving the route so far, but I do wish we had the Class 222 to add more variety. Hoping this can be considered for a future DLC.

The route feels a little empty in places. Some AI freight services on diversion would be good to see.

Also, something I have always wanted in a UK TSW route is line-side track workers. It would be nice to see some orange jacket track workers alongside the rails in places. Just makes everything feel more alive.

Really hoping the Class 222 comes in the future.

Thank you and the team for bringing the Class 158 to TSW. Looking forward to the upcoming patch.

 

Oh yes, the mastery is unlockable however you can’t activate it

 

Welcome to the forum and thank you for releasing this game. I bought it last night played the training missions then went to bed. I liked the training missions they were different and gold was easy to achieve. I’m looking forward to playing more.

thanks for committing to making the game the best it can be. We’re all passionate railfans and we all want our virtual railfanning to be as immersive as possible.

I appreciate that more content is coming. The only thing that would bother me would be to be asked to pay more for services that should have previously existed

 

Hi Jane it's great you're communicating and will put the problems right that are occurring thank you

 

Hello Jane thank you for reaching out. I have made a bug report in the Technical Report section of the forums if it helps. I'm sure most if not all items on that list have already been noted but I thought I'd share it anyway

 

[Added in by DTG Alex, this was initially a report message but I believe it was intended to be here and visible to jane-skyhook]
Your welcome.. I myself am from Nottingham and really was looking forward to it it's got so much to offer.

Ignoring the bugs one drowback is the time table. And lack of traffic. You could if added more traffic at Nottingham ie unplayable ones. Or AI only.ie the Mansfield train being around and the Liverpool lime Street it just adds that bit more . And I kinda of think that it has made a lot of people think twice. It's not so much the big things it also the little things in the game which bring it to life. And a few more of the trains being in the depo . I used to work at Etches and I can put all my money on the table and my life that they was never ever more then 2 trains around lol . Etches is the main service hub for the fleet and they is always more then 2 units there.

Thank you for your time to read this

-------

Just out of interest.

The walk around camera does any one think that it's a little high. Because when your walking around in the MK3 your really close to the roof lights

 

Can also add the light bleed at mk3 which was obvious at night. Theres a service of HST at late night that kicks you out at Derby despite stating you should enter Depot. There is a 15mph that was correctly placed but mistaken as 10mph from Derby to Notthingham's Junction. A whistle board that was red which was very rare. Font size on signs generally too small etc etc, I can think of these for now.

 

As for the bug, there is no help for it
The problem thinks that the bug that time to correspondence cannot arrive at the necessary results in a short time or a feeling of devotion disappears in an instant is speed of coping

I am worried about a railroad crossing not working definitely

 

Hi,

I noticed this incomplete switch in Nottingham.

 

Firstly, I appreciate you inviting this feedback.

I'll focus on the timetable because I'd expect bugs to be fixed and they've been well-covered. Ultimately what we need to see is

HSTs covering all Meridian services as well as their own*
158s covering all 156/153 services as well as their own*
Many more freight services

Possibly more controversial/difficult:

HSTs covering AI Crosscountry Voyager services
158s on XC services operated by 170s

* I understand that previous routes have limited themselves to the actual number of units operated by the TOC in question. If this is a restriction - e.g. that there aren't many EMR HSTs - it's definitely worth faking a few extras to pad out the timetable.

 

I'll just copy and paste what I posted in the Technical Reports section

General:
-Cooling towers at Ratcliffe power station look really bad at a distance
-Level Crossing lights at Attenborough station do not illuminate or make noise
-Cars drive on the wrong side of the road at certain places
-A PIS board at Derby is clipping through the station building
-Speed limits on HUD don't match with the signage at certain areas
-Loughborough station has skewered platforms
-Floating scenery objects observed throughout the route including benches and signs
-Passengers do not board player driven trains in Scenarios




Class 43 HST:
-Pressing the 'Circle' button on a controller does not acknowledge DSD
-GSMR functions do not work
-Coupler hatch does not open manually
-It is not possible to sit in any passenger seat on the train
-Collision when walking between carriages is obstructive and limits player movement (seems to only affect the 2+8 formations)
-Saloon lighting leaks from the carriages at night
-Door interlock lights appear to be permanently on
-AWS doesn't always alert the driver at a yellow or red aspect
-HST carriages appear at Etches Park depot with GWR livery (Unsure if bugged or intentional)




Class 158:
-GSMR turns itself off after a while
-Guard Panel buttons are incorrectly labelled
-Interior PIS seems to display incorrect destinations
-Cab light does does not appear to illuminate during the day

 

When you traverse the menus in the game it says “jump into a life like timetable” …. If it’s going to say that then it better be lifelike when I open it.

I don’t know midlands mainline well enough to tell but y’all seem to know what’s missing

same holds true for New York to Trenton … it says jump into a life like timetable only to find it missing a large portion of it. That route I know is light.

 

Scenario planner does not work. I’m driving a 6-car 158 to Nottingham from Derby (Nottingham Platform 7B & C), I was going through the route smoothly until I arrived at Beeston where strangely there was a red light ahead of the station. So I stopped a Beeston, the game then decides to say that Nottingham Station is behind me. Here is a picture of what I mean.

please fix this.

 

Hi jane-skyhook really appreciated post and love the honesty.

You and the guys @ Skyhook should give both of these videos a watch (if you haven't done so already) -
One from Train Sim TV and the other Dad Rail... I watched both last night and they both offer fantastic feedback for the entire route, trains and stations.




Within the first 10 mins of both videos, bugs / errors are found with ease.

Two Q's from me which are mentioned in each of the videos...

Train Sim TV Video - Why were Trams not implemented and the track on the bridges? Obviously this would have taken time to develop but a static model could have been implemented or modeled? The track doesn't appear to have been laid either, some has, some has not.

Dad Rail Video (8m:55s) - Why dont we have working GSMR ? As Dad Rail points out in his video... ever since Cross City released, working GSMR should be the norm.

For reference, I haven't purchased the route yet which is not like me... I was awaiting the initial feedback on this one and i'm personally glad I did as it would have ruined my experience and first impressions count, right ?

I am eager to see what gets fixed as this will determine my purchase in the near future.

I and everyone else certainly hope you live up to expectations -
"Everyone at Skyhook are absolutely committed to making this route the best it can be."

 

I appreciate the feedback very much (thank you also Alex for directing it!). I have passed this on to the production team. Really grateful, thank you.

 

Hmm, from a neural standpoint that comes across as intentionally releasing a route with minimal content and *potentially* using various £8.99 expansions in order to bring traffic quantity upto more acceptable levels.

 

To start out with the good, here are some things that have been done well:
- Route building: Great job on the overall feel of the route, it does do a good job of conveying the East Midlands countryside and the stations and assets overall are good.
- Loco choice: A 158 and a HST? A great duo, 'racing' them on the slow and fast lines is a feast for the eyes and ears.
- Collab with DTG on sounds: The sounds are great, when I first revved up the 158 I actually thought DTG had finally enabled vibration on controller coz the bass was coming through the speakers on my desk so hard, honestly probably two of the best sounding British locos in the game.
- Approach control, can't vouch for every signal where it is implemented, but all the ones I have experienced it with have been seriously immersion-enhancing, like I didn't expect it, even thouhgt it has been implemented on other routes, so when I figured out that is why I was being bought down for a red, only for it to change, it was a very pleasant surprise.

Now some things Skyhook could improve on:
- 158 window reflections. Though it has been mentioned as an issue in the front windscreen (and it is most annoying there), the same effect of the sky actually reflecting on the windows is present throughout the train. I'm not talking about the usual shallow reflections you get where it only renders what's already visible in screen, I'm talking about a low res reflection of the distant sky, it's very noticeably low res.
- HST door loading distances. This did show up in the stream, it is basically that the doors the furthest away from you when viewing a HST with the external camera, remain open after closing them, moving the camera closer 'updates' them, but it obviously not ideal given how great the loco looks stood at a platform!
- 8 car HSTs on platforms too small. I can't remember the exact service, but I think it was morning service with a HST from Derby to Leicester, and I think the train was timetabled to stop at the last station before the line converges with the route from Nottingham, and it's basically a station that barely fits 6 cars, but the HST was far too long, even overhanging significantly. Is this a service supposed to be done by a Meridian? Seemed like the only reason by such a short platform would be included in the stopping pattern for the loco.
- Timetable. I've been lucky with the services I have picked so far, the route hasn't seemed as dead as others have mentioned, but I will say that the y shaped nature of this route means you need more trains simply to keep up the appearance of a busier schedule, it won't matter to me if of the 6 trains moving on the route, 4 of them are on the Nottingham branch whilst I'm coming from Derby. It's important to see them, even if all they are doing is driving past yo, it helps fight distractions, and makes for nice pictures too ofc.
- Freight. I am hesitant to say this, because I am not a fan of seeing that EWS 66 rolled out, I would love something else, even just another livery, but as that doesn't seem to be on the table, can some more freight services be added? Doesn't have to be many, just enough to create a few unusual moments when passing them in sidings or on the mainline.
- That annoying blue light that remains illuminated above the AWS gauge, despite saying it only illuminates when the doors are open!