More Freight Oriented Routes For Uk

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by BlaringHorn, May 2, 2022.

  1. BlaringHorn

    BlaringHorn Well-Known Member

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    It might be the case that freight isn't such a big deal in the UK compared to passenger traffic, at least nowadays, but I really hope the future British routes have more focus on freight services, loading, unloading and shunting. Because especially the modern UK routes in the game have very anemic offerings in this regard. Something like Tees Valley (although that had a surprising lack of shunting services), but on a route that's not 20-something miles long.
     
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  2. jamesthepershing

    jamesthepershing Active Member

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    There are very few routes that have no passenger traffic unfortunately, so it would have to be more of a Tees Valley style thing.
     
  3. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    I'd be quite happy with some decent shunting timetables in the routes already available. The ones at Tees Yard with the 08 are quite short, and you can't pass the exit signals to shunt around of your own accord to do some free roam shunting. The timetabled shunting on the US routes is much longer, some give you up to an hour's work to do.
     
  4. BlaringHorn

    BlaringHorn Well-Known Member

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    I didn't mean that there shouldn't be any passenger traffic of course, Tees Valley has a good mix of freight and passenger traffic after all, just the length of the freight services leaves a lot to be desired. Ruhr-Sieg Nord is another good example of a route with lots of mixed traffic.

    There are so many industrial sidings and yards on Tees Valley that it's rather "criminal" how uninspired the shunting services are on that route (basically the same boring service repeated a couple of times on a small section of the yard). The single shunting scenario with the steel wagons is much better, and should have been the template for the timetable services.
     
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  5. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    I think the problem is most freight services aren't full length i.e. driving from start to finish without stopping and handing it over to AI. Most freight operations in the UK are too long to make as a practical route. Freight is also slower paced, generally less frequent and may not be as 'exciting', so I can see why it lacks the appeal. I do enjoy seeing freight pass when driving a passenger service however.

    My personal preference for another freight-oriented route would be the Barton Line with the area around Immingham Docks and Scunthorpe Steelworks. That way you get to drive full length merry-go-round trains from the steelworks to the docks and back, in addition to local passenger services to Cleethorpes, Barnetby and Barton-on-Humber and a handful of extra freight workings such as oil and grain. Route length would be around 40 miles, though I can't find an exact figure for that with all the freight spurs and short branches.
     
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  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I have previously mentioned Yorkshire Coal around Knottingley. South Wales going back to the mid to late 90’s would also be a good area for freight, Llanwern, Ebbw Vale, Cwmbargoed, Port Talbot, Onllwyn - take your pick.
     
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  7. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    That deserves a full detailed suggestion, would be a worthy addition to my collection.
     
  8. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. I have been revisiting TVL quite a bit after Adam's update and it really stuck out to me just how much track isn't used - neither in scenarios nor in the timetable. There are countless sidings all along the route and a lot more tracks in the industrial areas than are ever used. Maybe that's prototypical for the time period? I'm not familiar enough with UK railroading to be able to tell. But I'd love to see those sidings getting some love.
     
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  9. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I'd like to see more use for the class 66 beyond a 30 mile straight run up the GWE or a little 8 mile jaunt along southeast. GWE is a green light run most the time. It'd be interesting to see more units. The line between Cambridge and Peterborough runs a lot, the old line from Peterborough to Northants was fairly busy with freight too and would support an older timetable.
     
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  10. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Another area that could be quite interesting would be NE England - Ashington Coalfield, various locations around Newcastle and Gateshead, line up to Consett etc.
     
  11. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    To be honest it's a little frustrating that there are so many routes within close proximity in the London area that carry freight but we can't yet link them up.

    Not only BML and ECW but also extending that up a theoretical West London Line DLC to meet up with Bakerloo / GWE (about 6 miles of track, plus the Wivelsfield - Lewes stretch) - potential for what, about 2 hours straight running, maybe a little more? A Chatham Main Line DLC could link up SEHS too, although I have no idea if there is much freight running on it.
     
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  12. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Something other than a Class 66 would be nice.
     
  13. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I think there's a bit of stone traffic from Acton Yard out towards Hoo Junction then the Isle Of Grain, but nothing to equal the intensity of the (former) industrial north and Midlands.
     
  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't know why people think this. Yes you're doing 60 or 75 rather than 100 but if you see a double yellow you're much more likely to get elevated heart rate in a fully loaded freight than in a passenger (where you can stop from full speed on a single yellow for the most part)
    Some of the best scenarios I've seen on TSC are fairly long freight runs which don't have to be "full runs" but can provide a lot of things you don't see on the typical long passenger run, such as the aforementioned yellows
     
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  15. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    The new East West Rail link between Oxford & Cambridge would be another cracking route and could actually be launched before the full line is completed and operational, with both passenger and container services running along it.
     
  16. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    wouldn't be a straight green run if they actually implemented a realistic timetable for gwe
     
  17. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    How about WCML South Birmingham New Street to London Euston via Elmdon Airport Northampton Loop. You have Freight terminals rugby Daventry Class 325 Mail Runs out of Wilsden Junction Freight Classes 90 & 92 electric. Dual Mode 88 93 99.
     
  18. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    Yes please- i'd love to run more UK freight.

    For my own information, if the Class 66 is the most ubiquitous UK mainline freight loco (or maybe it's just in TSW lol), what are the equivalent road-switchers or shunters?

    Is it the venerable Class 08? Is there any intermediate loco in size/power that's used primarily for freight that we don't yet have in the game?
     
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  19. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The 08 or 09 is still the de facto shunting locomotive. Or, these days, the train engine be it a 66 or something else does the shunting as required.
     
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  20. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    There could be a lot more freight on both retro UK routes but will we see it? The lead time on developing anything seems to have increased dramatically. My gut feeling is that the older DLC routes are done in the eyes of DTG and apart from some pres crew stardust that's your lot. TVL was massively going in the right direction when the 31 and 20 DLCs came along. Then nothing. Either sales were not good enough or other projects required the focus. Massive shame as some serious untapped potential. The 08 would have been working all day as would be constant trains out of the yard. The lack of speedlink type traffic in both UK older routes is a gap I would like to see filled. This type of traffic was wiped out in the 1991 ending of it and lost masses of railfreight almost over night.
     
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  21. paulc

    paulc Well-Known Member

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    If more freight was added to BML that would help! There are several unused yards that could be utilised! Don`t want to hear anyone banging on about realism & this is not how its done in real life, there are many examples of fictional runs in game just give us some A-B freight workings to do :)
     
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  22. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    What makes an interesting route is the variety of rolling stock.
    Freight is always a good addition.


    Bring back the weed killer train as well.
     
  23. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    This ^^

    The 66 is a wonderful loco, but unfortunately massively underutilized.

    I once did an off-the-rails run with the 66 on Rurh Sieg Nord, and it was a pretty interesting drive with the changing speed limits and the various gradients.

    The UK routes with the 66 only offer a boring drive. It's either short, or just a straight flat run along the GWE without any interesting things happening along the way.
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    This is my problem with the timetables in general. Because there's no variation in timings there are very few runs which offer anything other than "PING green"
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    GWE had so much potential for freight. All the stone traffic off the B&H to and from Acton. Freight to and from Brentford and Colnbrook, branches which should have been included. DB Network traffic out of Didcot that also runs up via Acton towards Willesden etc. Various engineers traffic and of course on track machine moves.
     
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  26. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    66s are by far the most common freight loco here. They built hundreds to various specs, whereas other classes they only built a couple dozen:
    Class 90 (electric) - 50 built, 36 in service
    Class 92 (electric) - 46 built, 18 in service
    Class 88 (bi-mode) - 10 built
    Class 70 (diesel) - 37 built
    Class 59 (diesel) - 15 built
    Class 69 (diesel) - 10 ordered, 5 built so far
    Class 56 (diesel) - 135 built, 34 in service
    Class 60 (diesel) - 100 built, 29 in service
    Class 66 - 480 built, 489 in service (including 2nd hand imports)
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2022
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  27. paulc

    paulc Well-Known Member

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    The freight runs we do have are often cut down to what they could be! The scenarios on GWE for instance could be so much better! The HST rescue rather than waiting in the platform for the 66 to be brought to you why not start in the sidings or maybe start at Acton Yard & run light to Reading then return to Acton yd when done! Or the aggregate scenario could be expanded upon by starting away from the aggregate terminal, stopping then reversing in ect rather than starting out already in the aggregate terminal siding.
     
  28. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    Cough, don't forget the lovely class 60 ;)
     
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  29. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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    D'oh! Knew there was one I missed.
     
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  30. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    Of the 66s built for the UK, less than 400 are still in the country and a fair portion of those aren't operational, the number is closer to 300 in service. It's still a lot of locos, but nowhere near that many.
     
  31. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    And 37901... Although I think that largely worked in South Wales.
     
  32. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    I still have so many left to see the, I've only spotted 242 of them
     
  33. BlaringHorn

    BlaringHorn Well-Known Member

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    I think you could also add the Class 67 to that list! ;)
     
  34. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The 67 is a good shout because it’s quite versatile, although it is more widely used as a Passenger hauler.
     
  35. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    The problem with the 67 is that because it's geared for 125 MPH top speed, it doesn't have much grunt when it comes to hauling heavy loads.

    Going back to my Control days, the maximum unassisted load up the Lickey for example was far less than many other locos - something like 200 tonnes trailing as opposed to 1070 for a Class 66. Less even than a 47 or 57.
     
  36. georgedayy7

    georgedayy7 Member

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    I think the Trent valley line would be good (WCML) daventry to stafford maybe with class 90s as they operate a lot from there
     
  37. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Not much in the way of freight operations along there, though, apart from Rugeley Power station. What we want is something with a big yard, maybe even a hump so we can do some hump shunting. Another area of interest then might be something around Carlisle, centred on Kingmoor Yard. You could maybe go out to Workington for the steel traffic, set it when Dentonholme Sidings behind Citadel were still operational, basically early 70’s pre electrification as depicted in the SIAM traffic control game. Longtown could be an issue as it’s MOD, but you also have the trip workings along the S&C, Tyne Valley etc. which could be covered.

    Edit: At the time you also had trips out to Brunthill on the old Waverley route and several rail served terminals in the Carlisle area itself, including Willowholme Power Station and various sidings at Petteril Bridge. In the meantime, a constant procession of main line and local trains plus through freight passing Citadel. Joe could have a field day with the timetable. Apart from the Class 50 and Class 25 (plus Scottish 26 and 27) most of the motive power needed is already included in TSW.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2022
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  38. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Just did a quick RTT scan on Atherstone and and there's over 50 separate freight pathings per day on that line
     
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  39. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    WCML Trent Valley would be good, but might prove to be a bit awkward in timetable mode as not all express services call at both Stafford and Rugby on the same journey, potentially resulting in many of these services needing to be AI only or make unrealistic technical stops for gameplay purposes.
     
  40. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Make them AI only. Shouldn't have to reduce the scope of a route when there's over a hundred services which CAN be driven.
    There are services from scotland on that route which run fast from "up north" all the way to London
     
  41. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    My point was no yards or terminal complexes which would be the focus of a freight route, as on TVL. Driving a Class 4 or Class 6 freight non stop from Rugby to Stafford would be no different to any other A to B run.
     
  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I agree, but this is true of almost all freight runs
    And TSW doesn't have the timetable setup for freight marshalling within yards outside of scenarios so that's something else to be thought about.

    Maybe freight just doesn't work in a game setting when the routes are 50 miles or less
     
  43. Clumsy Pacer

    Clumsy Pacer Well-Known Member

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  44. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    To some extent I agree which is part of the problem on the American routes. You are shuffling cars around to no real end. In Run 8, when I work the hump at Waycross or one of the yards on the SoCal mega route, the cars are tagged for destination or sorting into local (i.e. trip) workings so there is a real purpose to it.

    However that's not to say in depth marshalling operations shouldn't be on the "to do" agenda for DTG to look at. Imagine forming your trains up in the yard then trotting across to the depot or stabling point to bring the train engine across. You can either then work the traffic yourself or assign an AI driver to it.

    And something based on (say) Carlisle with extents to Workington, Longtown etc. would fall well within the 50 mile paradigm.
     
  45. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I can't see how hump working really fits in with TSW as the timetabling just wouldn't work
    Would all be scenarios

    Yep, but all those workings are A2B so unless they included yard workings... which goes back to timetable vs scenario again
     
  46. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Sad to say you are probably right Alan (?) but at some point I would like to see Carlisle freight brought to life in TSW.
     

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