Nec Signal, Atc, And Acses: Fixed Or Not?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Nozomi329, Nov 25, 2021.

  1. Nozomi329

    Nozomi329 Member

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    So I've been driving the ACS64 out of Boston and approaching Providence I get a strange 45->30->45->30->20 speed limit pattern from ATC/ACSES.
    I'm pretty sure this has appeared all the way since this route first came out, and there seems to be some update about ATC and ACSES in the 11.24 update, but...
    1. Is this a problem? I've always been confused by US signals, although it doesn't seem right to me anyway.
    2. Any idea on what caused this problem? Is it on the signal side? or ATC? or ACSES?
    3. Has there any attempt to fix it? Is it done?
    This is my No.1 disappointment about this route.
    Besides it seems that the throttle on ACSES64 acts strange after enabling and disabling cruise. Throttle at 0 will give a little power. Is it just me...?

    Thanks.
     
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  2. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    It wasn't in today's update, I tried that. I've been trying to get an answer on this since the route launched and nothing so far.

    1/2 - I agree, I don't think this is correct, but I don't know much about ATC/ACSES and how it's implemented in the real world. It is an issue with ATC however (the signal safety system, ACSES is the speed enforcement safety system, in simple terms), and it seems some of the signals between 1 and 4 miles outside of Providence carry some sort of "approach" signal, usually "Approach Medium" which forces the 45 / 30 reductions. Absolutely no idea why those signals are like that because there's nothing around and no track changes that should result in adverse signalling until the approach outside of Providence leading to the red signal at the platform, which obviously doesn't start 4 miles out. In my run today to see what the update did, I ended up turning off only ATC on approach to Providence and it ended up being fine. ACSES aligned with track speed (60-70) so ACSES seems to work just fine.
    3 - Matt did confirm on a stream recently they are still looking into ATC/ACSES and acknowledged that there are still some issues with it, which is why we still haven't gotten his American Signalling tutorial video.

    Hopefully soon, because I agree it's a disappointment and has meant I rarely play the route.
     
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  3. zefreak

    zefreak Active Member

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    I also dont think this route is quite fixed yet, and avoid playing it for that reason. A shame because I otherwise like the route
     
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  4. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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  5. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would think american ATC/ACSES is simplier than the german SIFA and PZB for example. Wonder why it appears to be so problematic then.
     
  6. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I tried a couple of runs with ATC/ACSES switched on but it became impossible to keep to the timetable. As noted above you are getting 45 or even 30 limits popping up with a clear line ahead for several miles. There are several locations, I think just beyond Ruggles where it goes down to two tracks you get a 30 when the track speed is 45 or even 60 through the junction. Likewise approaching Canton Junction you are getting a reduction of speed advice two or more miles out. It would help if we had some basic information, i.e. are you expected to match the speed display immediately or by the next home signal (not a track balise).
     
  7. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Definitely not simpler than SIFA - doesn‘t get much simpler than press a button every 30 seconds :D

    I‘d guess it‘s availability of resources and experience. DTG are quite good with PZB now, but their first try on Rapid Transit was somewhat lackluster with some severe mistakes in signaling and how PZB reacts to it. And then there‘s the availability of research material. If you google ATC/ACSES, you won‘t find a single piece of real, actual documentation on it. If you do the same for PZB, a lot of the real, authentic DB manuals are available online for free (same for LZB). They‘re in German, sure, but DTG have to have an in-house solution for translating German material based on the number of German products for TSW.

    All just speculation on my part, though.
     
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  8. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    All very true. And the patchwork of different rules and regulations in North America doesn't make everything more clear.
    So I would really appraciate DTG telling us on what actual body of rules and regulations in which version the signalling/train control in a given DLC is supposed to be based on. Then we could at least discuss it here.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2021
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  9. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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  10. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    This is what I think, for the trackside signals.
    And the 9 aspect cab pulse signalling (for ATC) and ACSES should imho follow rules and patterns as outlined in this rather oldish document.
    But since versions of rulesbooks change and regulations overlap, it would be nice what exactly are the sources for the implementation in the game.
    And I still have to find any rules, regulations or directives for how (when, under which circumstances, etc) exactly to use (especially as a signaller or whoever controls them) the in cab signals, especially if there are more than one train in one block. This might be one of the crucial points in the Boston DLC, where you always seem to get very restricting signal aspects (in one line with the question whether ACSES really needs to restrict you to constant 5 mph when you are doing the most tedious loop around Boston South station).
     
  11. wxtr7

    wxtr7 Well-Known Member

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    I actually don't think PZB is ~that~ complicated, the rules are pretty straightforward, it just has the learning curve which is mostly because PZB yells at you when its too late. I get the impression ATC/ACSES aren't as nice. ACSES doesn't seem that hard, since it's just speed limits, and generally seems to work. ATC is like a signalling system within a signalling system: you have the code change point blocks that sit inside the trackside/overhead signal blocks (which work together), then letting multiple trains within a single block, combined with also needing to manage input from ACSES and I think all that leads to a bunch of deviations to the "rules" that make it quite challenging to implement. Then it doesn't help DTG's dispatcher isn't truly "dynamic" as everything still follows predefined paths that don't change. This of course is just my speculation based on my limited understanding of ATC...

    Always follow in-cab signals. If there's more than one train in the block, you operate under a restricting aspect (15 mph max) and line of sight.
    I think it was said somewhere (may have been a preview stream) it's not just ACSES that controls the turn back loop, the track speed there is actually 5 mph.
     
  12. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    Since ACSES is merely enforcing the track speed limit, this may very well be so. Then the tediousness is actually implemented correctly.
     
  13. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    What I am saying is, is that we all know more or less how it is supposed to work, but not the exact body of rules. And this makes is difficult to put the finger on exactly what needs to be changed to make this DLC more fun to play.
     
  14. Nozomi329

    Nozomi329 Member

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    They do have more chances to practice implementing PZB for sure. Basically every German route comes with that...
     

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