1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Need Help Understanding Pzb Overdrive And Sifa For German Routes

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by ScottN, Nov 25, 2020.

  1. ScottN

    ScottN Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    74
    Hey I've been running the Schnellfahrestrecke Kolm Aachen and have recently wanted to use PZB overdrive and SIFA, but I don't know how it all works since I ran with them off during other runs on it. My situation is when I run around the speed limit indicated on the HUD but then I get an alert that stops my train when I'm under the limit on the HUD.
     
  2. BjornGroen02NL

    BjornGroen02NL Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2019
    Messages:
    391
    Likes Received:
    755
    Have you watched Matt's tutorial about PZB, LZB and SiFa?



    It includes all you need to know to get you started ;)
     
    • Like Like x 5
  3. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    1,159
    Likes Received:
    2,528
    I would also recommend you to watch the video by Matt above. PZB in its core is logical, but the way it works is far from intuitive. Matt did a great job on explaining the important points and making pzb more accessible.

    By the way, he also recommended to turn SiFa off while you are learning pzb. Sifa ist the easiest one, press SiFa button when the yellow light lights up. But it gets confusing and overwhelming when you are focusing on what to do with PZB at first.
     
  4. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    1,601
    As sh1.org says, "The theory of operation is (theoretically) quite simple (If it would practically be simple, it wouldn't be German...)." :)
     
    • Like Like x 5
  5. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    Indeed operation is not very difficult but you need to know the basic signal rules. In general words:

    - SIFA: this is just a deadman system like the alerter included in the american trains or the DSD in the british ones. You need to acknowledge it periodically when warning is triggered to tell system driver is still alive. If not done brakes are applied.

    - PZB override: you need to press it just before passing signals displaying red or red/white aspect. Also required for the stop boards included in routes such as the Wuppertal one. Prevents system to trigger the brakes. In the case of red aspect signals and stop boards you also need to contact signaler before to get authorization to pass them or scenario/service will end. So both things are needed in that case.

    - PZB release: used to override some of the PZB restrictions like the initial 45km/h one that happens when you start moving train. Also needed to restore system while at standstill after an emergency brake application was triggered.

    - PZB acknowledge: needed to acknowledge the speed boards, signals and signals with speed boards that require it. Typically they are the ones giving the 1000Hz magnet. For speed boards they are the ones giving a significant speed reduction and in the case of signals they are the ones which contain yellow aspects like stop announcement (yellow) and reduced speed announcement (green/yellow in a diagonal pattern). If not done brakes are applied.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2020
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
  6. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    207
    For begginers it's good praxis to acknowledge anything that tells you to slow down. You'll get the hang of what you don't have to acknowledge as you drive more and more.
     
  7. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2020
    Messages:
    612
    Likes Received:
    1,012
    As said before, SIFA is the deadman switch. You have to push it every 30 seconds the latest, if not, the indicator on the dash will light up for 2.5s, then an audible warning will sound for 2.5 seconds and then the emergency brakes are applied until you press the SIFA button. In regular operation, you don't wait until the SIFA lights up, you just press it regularly by yourself. You will get used to it quickly, I often don't even realise I am doing it, it becomes automated quickly :)

    The PZB override is something you rarely use, especially in TSW. I only encountered one situation so far where I needed it (running the freight service on RRO from Wuppertal to Hagen). Since you never pass red signals in the game, you basically never need this button. I do not know your background, but in general, the German safety systems are very different from the British ones for example, in a way that you have to act and the system intervenes if you don't, rather then you reacting to the system - something that often amuses me when Sam is trying his luck with PZB on :D And once you missed the point where you were supposed to do something, emergency braking until standstill ;)
     
  8. L89

    L89 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2020
    Messages:
    1,067
    Likes Received:
    728
    PZB Override is only used in rare instances. RRO has freight and passenger services that require it. RSN I think you can use it if you are early into a section and no trains are ahead (as I have run the same service twice...second time didn't require it?). In all cases you must get permission. Important thing when it is used is to hold, not press it over passing a danger signal or post.

    As already posted, Matt's video will go through most of PZB and SIFA. You should learn more about PZB Override when you come across those services.
     
  9. ScottN

    ScottN Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    74
    In his video he mentions you have to acknowledge the PZB at signals and set speed limits in advance to go at the right speed
     
  10. Quentin

    Quentin Active Member

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2016
    Messages:
    174
    Likes Received:
    152
    I assume SIFA as modelled in TSW accurately reflects the real world implementation, but it triggers every 30(?) seconds, irrespective of any driver actions in between, whereas the UK equivalent has the timer reset whenever the driver makes adjustments to the power or brake settings (proving they're 'alive'). The result is that SIFA often alarms when I'm busy trying to respond to a signal indication or speed limit with LZB, which can be distracting. It seems an odd way to design a safety system.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2018
    Messages:
    920
    Likes Received:
    1,601
    I agree, it can be a little annoying to quickly peck Q while paying attention to signals, but I've found it to be much easier and more intuitive after having mapped it to a pedal. I use JoyToKey to map the up position of my G29 gas pedal to the Q key, so it will "release" DSD/Sifa whenever the pedal lifts and presses the Sifa pedal when I push back down. This way, by operating Sifa with your foot as in real life, I find it to be a lot easier to mindlessly control. :)
     
  12. jeanmarc094

    jeanmarc094 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2020
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    411
    this video is the best for me in term of learning german safety system.
     
  13. ScottN

    ScottN Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    74
    I had my train stop and it’s constantly beeping and the HUD says Befehl 40. Don’t know how to recover it
     
  14. jeanmarc094

    jeanmarc094 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2020
    Messages:
    280
    Likes Received:
    411
    pzb release
     
  15. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    Exactly. The 45 km/h limit is active everytime you start moving after system is active for instance. If you can see the first signal ahead and it has a non-stop aspect you are allowed to press Release button to remove that limit. But you can't relese the speed limit that appears after emergency brake was triggered. You can just release the brake application itself.

    Cheers
     
  16. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2019
    Messages:
    800
    Likes Received:
    763
    I just want to add to geloxo as I have learned it, maybe I'm wrong (ofc correct me then): You are allowed to release from the restriction if it is NOT a 500hz magnet that's currently active and if the route ahead has a green light and at least 30 km/h line speed
     
  17. ScottN

    ScottN Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2020
    Messages:
    122
    Likes Received:
    74
    I tried following a method from a YouTuber who goes by Train Simulator Gameplay and PZB gets me. I have the video he made
     
  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 20, 2020
    Messages:
    4,454
    Likes Received:
    6,346
    Matt makes a very good practical point, which apparently mirrors real-world DB policy: do 5 km/h under the PzB book speed limit. In other words, when initially starting up and under control (flashing alternate lights), go 40 not 45. At a 1000-Hz magnet, drop to 80 not 85. The reason? any speed at all over the limit is verboten. 45.1 in a 45 is a violation and will trigger an emergency braking.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    133
    Do not forget that using the PCB, in passenger mode you are restricted to a maximum speed of 85KM, and cargo mode to 70KM, for all mode, when in main station area to 45KM
     
  20. kalteVollmilch

    kalteVollmilch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    432
    Please stop confusing people, this is just wrong.
    First, it's PZB, not PCB (from Punktförmige ZugBeeinflusung).
    I assume what you mean with passenger mode is PZB mode O, which is the fastest of the modes. Your maximum allowed speed is 165 kph, in praxis a good speed to aim for is 160kph so that you have a little bit of slack.
    The 85kph is a limit you have to slow down to once you passed an active 1000Hz magnet. Otherwise the 85kph is irrelevant.
    Just for reference: For PZB mode M, the limit after an active 1000Hz magnet is 70kph, and for PZB mode U the limit is 55kph.

    The 45kph limit you mentioned is only relevant if you are in restricted monitoring. I'm not going to explain what this is, I'm sure it is part of the videos linked in this thread. It has nothing to do with being in a station area or not.

    Finally (and I know this was already discussed in another thread, but for some reason I can't help myself..), km (kilometer, 1km = 1000m) is a unit of distance, what you are talking about is kph or km/h (kilometers per hour) which is a unit of speed.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  21. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    133
    THe 85KM or 70KM is lit in every locomotive that use it at all time when the system is ON, so therefore you can not exceed the speed of 85KM or 70KM depending on the type of train you are riding, 85KM for passenger ,or 70KM for cargo, unless there is a way that I do not know about to turn the light OFF and the system ON
     
  22. kalteVollmilch

    kalteVollmilch Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 13, 2018
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    432
    Depending on the PZB mode, either the 85, 70 or 55 is lit, that is correct. As long as it is steadily lit, it only lets you know that the system is on and which mode you are in. You are allowed to go faster than the number indicated.
    Only once the light starts blinking, you have to slow down to that speed.
    If a 85 and 70 flash alternately, your max. speed is usually 45kph.
    Those rules are simplified, but work most of the time.
    Just to hihglight the important aspect: if the 85, 70 or 55 is steadily lit, it only tells you the system is turned on, but this is NOT your max. speed.
     
  23. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2020
    Messages:
    390
    Likes Received:
    133
    But if you go faster, tehn a yellow and orange light below the blue light with the speed in it lights up and the train brakes to stop
     
  24. involvedmass

    involvedmass Member

    Joined:
    Sep 19, 2020
    Messages:
    47
    Likes Received:
    37
    If you go faster when in restricted mode, then yes you will be stopped.

    I would recommend anyone wanting to play with PZB to read this chapter on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punktförmige_Zugbeeinflussung#Function

    There, all the speed restrictions you need top follow in the different PZB modes are listed.
    The speeds you are talking about, 85, 70 and 55, are the max speeds you need to slow down to (in a certain timeframe) when passing certain speed restriction signs or a signal showing a non-green aspect.
    You will then have (depending on which mode you are in of O, M or U) 23, 29 or 38 seconds to slow the train down to 85, 70 or 50 respectively. If you miss that timeframe, then emergency brakes will be applied. If you managed to slow down in time, you should continue slowing down to whatever speed the signal or sign told you was coming up.

    If you just started moving you will be in restricted mode, with a max speed of 45. Once the flashing yellow light on the dash is gone, or you manually release from restricted mode, then you can accelerate up to the allowed speed on the line.

    Also, everything I wrote here only applies to 1000hz magnets which will be the most common (at least that you need to react to in any way). But when approaching a red signal (i.e you have just passed a yellow signal) there is a 500hz magnet about 300 meters from the signal, when passing this magnet you have other target speeds that you need to reach in a certain distance. And those speeds are also differnet depending on the PZB mode.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2021
    • Like Like x 1
  25. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2018
    Messages:
    719
    Likes Received:
    1,183
    The general rule is to be below 40km/h and to press override when the signal magnet is passed. The best is to press and hold until signal mast is passed to be sure. You also need dispatcher permission before that or game will trigger a service termination.

    But if you had stopped before the signal (as normally you would do) then once you start moving the restrictive mode will be active. This means a lower overall limit will be active. In the worst case for heavy freight it's 25 km/h so override must be executed below 25 km/h in that case.

    In the manuals a table with all speed limits for the 3 modes is included. There the restrictive limits are listed as well.

    Cheers
     
  26. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    1,216
    Likes Received:
    1,878
    Just dropping in to say that anyone who wants more information on how PZB actual works (which will make it much easier to use) should check out the links in my signature:)
     
  27. Class395

    Class395 Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2020
    Messages:
    132
    Likes Received:
    207
    PZB Dash lamps:
    85: 165km/h (passenger trains)
    70: 125km/h (fast freight)
    55: 105km/h (heavy freight)
    5km/h below pzb speed is mandatory.
     
    • Like Like x 1

Share This Page