New British Routes Speculation

Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by londonmidland, Oct 6, 2022.

  1. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Why such negativity? Its a lovely route and worthy of inclusion, with the fixes in place for the save game it comes ever closer to fruition. Although I am sure you'll agree with the shortest run end to end being just 8 days a save function is hardly a prerequisite!!
     
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  2. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    The scenery would pose little problem as well, a win, win!
     
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  3. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Fair enough I had presumed they are shouts for the whole lot which I have seen somewhere over time. After a while I gave up on the suggestions forum as it was ECML, WCML, Merseyrail and repeat or at least thats what I think I read!

    But like I have said earlier if the imcumbent operator doesnt want to licence then thats an issue, nevermind the emptiness of it all. Maybe the WCML is on the cooker as the 323 would beef it up around the West Midlands...Still need a lot more though!
     
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  4. dosto762

    dosto762 Well-Known Member

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    Would be nice if DTG included 13 locos as a DLC in the future to celebrate 13 years of Dovetail rail games
     
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  5. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Only 1 per year, I think they can and should do better. How about 1 loco for every month over the last 13 years? I mean what's 156 new locos between friends? Its not like I am being unreasonable and asking for 4,745 which would be 1 for every day of the companies existence.
     
  6. carlanthony24

    carlanthony24 New Member

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    No Negativity. Can't believe you think it is. I know the CCL really well use to run on that line nearly every week. More referring to you saying WCML ECML to come as one package is never going to happen.
     
  7. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Oh believe me I hear the requests for ECML and WCML and part of it literally is down to costs and time to produce it.

    This route is this route and now because it was felt that even this is a bit long after the release of TSW3 before the first "new" UK route given SEHS was an extension. Had it been ECML it'd be another few months yet before the first bit of UK content.

    It's not just about one dimension, there are many factors to take into consideration as briefly outlined above, I can't just work my way down the "top routes to build" list and without likely leaving you with no content for much longer times than even now.

    It IS however taking too long to find ECML or WCML a place on the schedule, acknowledged, but no answer right now.

    ... and every time someone replies to this post saying "ooh! ECML or WCML confirmed!" i'm gonna bump it down the list a bit more :)

    Matt.
     
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  8. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Out of interest, how much reference was done for this route by visiting the real life route and train, or was there a bit of 'this is how it looks in TSC, so we'll do the same for TSW'?

    I ask because with the TSC version, there was quite a few inaccuracies with both the Class 323 and route itself.

    Not criticism at all, I'm genuinely interested in how this route was built for TSW 3 :)
     
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  9. jacob.davies1855

    jacob.davies1855 Member

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    So I can assume its coming by the end of November?
     
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  10. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    To clarify do you mean the route is too long or the period of time since TSW3 is too long? I've read it a few times and can't work out what you mean, although it's late and my mind isn't functioning to well
     
  11. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Its been advertised as coming out on the 15th of November.
     
  12. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Surely a big route deserves more resources and time spent on it? The payoff would be worth it, no..?

    If we had known a EC or WCML route was in the works, I'm almost certain we would be happy to wait until it's right.

    See above, but once JT and ATS start knocking out content, does that essentially "free up" more time with DTG to work on EC or WCML routes, or is that why ATS was brought in, they've done WCML and ECML haven't they? JT seems to love the MML too (as do I).

    How far ahead do you plan, a year? Surely there comes a point where you have to make time and find space on the schedule for it or it'll never come.

    I'm sure I'm wrong but it feels like DTG are happy to get "quick win's" rather than dedicate time on a bigger project like the ECML/WCML.
     
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  13. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Matt.

    I do have a question if I may please. In relation to this cross country route and any future are they now being built differently so extensions in the manner of SEHS can now be bolted on easier in the future?
    Could that make unnamed routes easier to build in stages or is too much of a faff time wise?

    I don't recall seeing it being asked anywhere before and I'm assuming SEHS with the high play rate recently published was a commercial success?
     
  14. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    I hear what you say Matt and despite my reservations expressed in the other thread I may still get this on Day 1 if it's not a silly price. Certainly true the route has been requested in the Suggestions forum more than a few times. However just seems this should have gone the extra mile. Not expecting the BVE style West Midlands network, but come on not having the line out to the main depot is a major omission. More so than Cathcart any line around Birmingham is going to look bare without additional rolling stock. At the least a Voyager and Class 170 as any run out towards Longbridge direction is almost inevitably going to have you passing one of these. New Street needs to be alive and vibrant, constant stream of trains coming and going, announcements going off every few seconds, hustle and bustle of people everywhere.

    Oh and a driveable canal boat!
     
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  15. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I am intrigued to see how much of New Street is modelled. I'm thinking of Harlem and Grand central not having the upper concourse modelled. I'd go so far to say in the same way as Grand Central, the upper concourse and shops will look really odd if they are quiet and if I recall from my time in this station you'd need the concourse to walk into the differing platform zones upstairs?

    I'm hoping there are some layer treats in here and looking forward to seeing what's what in a couple of days.
     
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  16. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    I guess folks are happy to have all runs on green lights and bare mainline stations. It's great that Matt comes on and explains some thought behind the release. This is one of the busiest stations in the country though and will be looking like T3s on all routes bar Cross City. I can't see me buying this for any reason even on sale unless some mystery x factor is lurking....
     
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  17. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    With regard to running on greens, if not doing a one off Journey run, the devil in me might introduce a little pertubation by leaving Redditch 10' late, a bit of station overtime at Selly Oak while the chavettes get their baby buggies on board. 25' late by Lichfield...
     
  18. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Interestingly, with a busy realistic timetable and the approach control system in place (which is all over this route affecting you in numerous places), beta team are saying they're really enjoying that it's *not* a green-light route.

    The duration of time from TSW3 releasing, to the first bit of UK content after that, also keeping in the back of our minds that the last UK content was steam and means there's been no modern-focused content for a long time since... London Brighton?

    We don't bring in third parties to do particular things - if they ask to join the programme and we think they are going to be up to it (making a TSW route is a lot more complex than a TSC route) then we onboard them - and then from that point it's up to them what they make, we provide guidance on what we think will react well with the wider player base or what links with our future plans but whether a third party wants to work on WCML or anything else we'll certainly leave to them to come up with viable product options - and if they want to spend 3 years making something amazing I'm not going to stop them other than perhaps recommend they find alternative incomes while they do that of course :)

    I'm looking forward to seeing how the third-party teams get on and how their projects are received, they're certainly working hard for you :)

    Planning releases is a complex process with competing requirements from numerous places, one of the hardest bits of what we do, it's not about "quick wins" or anything but i'm going to leave that comment where it is, you're entitled to your views and your pain. Suffice to say this route was NOT an easy route to make at all.

    Honestly, Vern. :)

    We've worked closely with a local on the line and their connections to capture as much detail as possible. However, I will say what I always say to people - your local line will never ever live up to your expectations because it's just not feasible. We do our best to capture the feel of the area and the key locations. We are doing an article with the person we worked with and they'll outline some of what they did to help to give you an example but suffice to say a massive reference library has been accessible and the team have tried to do the best job of recreating it.

    We have not re-used any resources from TS1 at all, they really just don't convert well and it's frankly easier to make them fresh for TSW. The priority has been on capturing all the different stations as accurately as possible and I think we've done a brilliant job in the detail on those. I took some screenshots for a company meeting the other week and was also able to appreciate how well the team has captured a variety of different areas of the route comparing with google earth so i'm feeling really positive about it - but I'm not a local :)

    It's a fun route, takes about 1h15 or so to get from end to end, the approach control keeps things interesting and the train with its interesting sounds is fun to drive too. The gameplay team have done some fun new things here as well, some of which involving features on the train that we've not done before like Pantograph isolation.

    Anyway, enough of me praising the team and what we do, it only really matters what you all think of it when it comes out, so I look forward to your feedback as you start seeing it and get your hands on it.

    Matt.
     
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  19. MAX1319

    MAX1319 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you Matt. I do have a concern that seems lately on both TSW3 and TSC I’m hearing the same that it all comes down to cost an Time to produce it. I hear you and thats business. But I do believe sometimes we need to invest in order to grow. I know the rush hour had lots of issues but to be honest that’s what got me into TSW2. Those 3 routes are on my top list of as they have the variety.. I’m not sure what the outcome was as far profits but I would pay double for a route. And please don’t that to negatively. I think all these post are good for the game and it’s future. I will keep buying good content. But hopefully in the future we can expand and go back to some routes that need gaps filled in. Anyways thank you for what you guys do. You guys got me into train simulator and I do appreciate it.
     
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  20. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    There have been many complaints on here about the lack of recent UK content, I think there would have been a lot of moaning if DTG announced they were making the ECML or WCML and it wasn't going to be released till next March!

    Personally I am happy with the Cross City line as it is an interesting route and the class 323 quite a characterful train for a modern EMU. Pre covid it had an intense timetable so should be busy even with one train.
     
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  21. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As mentioned, I shall put my "Mr Pertubator" or as I was known in the Control "The Destroyer" hat on, see if it's possible to mix things up a bit. That's where a "Chaos Mode" would really score on a route like this, so if you're running 20' late on a Lichfield service you get the option to turn round at Four Oaks or maybe run fast to recover the lost time.

    I just hope we get a decent number of start and end points so those of us who want to attempt a 1981 style* classic diesel timetable won't be thwarted by lack of paths. Access to the entry and exit portals would be nice too, as I already suggested.

    And I wasn't entirely joking about chugging along in a canal boat, train spotting as you go. TSW needs an interactive spotters'/bashers' notebook so you can clear the traction units you've driven. Could be a nice little Steam achievement, actually.

    * My first run to Redditch was in 1976** doing a Midland Rover ticket for a week. Mon to Fri service only ran during the peaks, so you had to do it on a Saturday when there was an out and back shopper's trip around 1200 from New Street. Class 121 or Class 122 bubble car on its own if I recall.

    ** Now I feel really old!
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2022
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  22. fakenham

    fakenham Well-Known Member

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    Well great news regarding the busy, realistic timetable and it sounds like plenty of adverse signals to keep us on our toes. Approach control is a must and I'm glad it's implemented as in reality (for all new TSW routes now). Just need to update those speed signs!
     
  23. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I love that, my goal with any TSW route is to end up playing hudless and for that the stations and their appearance, as well as the existence and accuracy of things like stopping boards, CCTV screens and other clutter than can help as a visual reference could be a deal breaker, which was somewhat of a let down between Dartford and Gravesend.

    All the writing about how interesting the route is to drive and the relatively long service length (you mentioned 1h15m) is really starting to make this a more interesting proposition that what I initially thought. I just hope that approach control is not the only source of adverse signals.

    All that's remaining now is to see how good the Class 323 is in terms of physics and sounds, if that's good, then you most likely have my money :D
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2022
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  24. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    We've got a second UK route coming out which has yet to be announced. If DTG came out and said we're making an ECML route which we're working hard on and won't be out until late Q1 or early Q2 2023, people would be cool with it. (I know they don't announce dates until they're certain but for arguments sake..). In that scenario, 2 UK routes in 5 months is pretty good actually.

    Alas, this doesn't matter as currently we're not getting anything like that so, hey ho!
     
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  25. deeuu#6908

    deeuu#6908 Active Member

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    People might be, but this is a business, they need turnover in the short(er) term to keep solvent.
     
  26. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    Can absolutely confirm no driveable canal boat, sorry :)

    Matt.
     
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  27. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    So in the case (which I totally get), we'll never see an ECML or WCML route as it costs too much and takes longer to build. There needs to be a point in the life of TSW where the 3rd Parties can keep the money coming in over a year or so while DTG build a ECML/WCML or vice versa.
     
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  28. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    We will get it at some point in separate shorter sections. It just requires some time to make.
     
  29. mbjbjm#7281

    mbjbjm#7281 Member

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    How about a tour of the Cadbury factory?
     
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  30. TSW Nathan

    TSW Nathan Well-Known Member

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    DTG Matt, Will you be posting images or videos on you guys doing research about the route IRL. You did that previously and I found it to be very interesting. If your not would you concider doing it in the future?
     
  31. TSW Nathan

    TSW Nathan Well-Known Member

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    My first thought when I saw Matt posted.
    “Wow! Matt Looked in this thread!”.
    Lol. It's always nice to see the Devs looking at our thoughts and suggestions.
     
  32. Warspite

    Warspite Well-Known Member

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    I must admit I was disappointed with what seemed to be another one ‘loco’ suburban route with “green signals all the way”. However, Matt’s description of the route and particularly the application of the approach control system with a busy timetable makes me think this could be an interesting and challenging route to drive. Quite looking forward to it now.
     
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  33. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. It’s genuinely great to hear that the approach control is re-created, but the reason I focus so much on having some signal check is not an irrational hatred of the colour green, but a wish to have an element of unpredictability and variation in a journey (as there is in real life). Approach control doesn’t do that, because it’s still the same every time you reach that signal. To get the variation you need some conflicts with other train movements, and if only 323s working the cross city route are represented, it’s difficult to think how that will happen.

    I suppose it’s possible there could be some conflicts between Lichfield - Bromsgrove and Redditch - Lichfield trains over the junction at Barnt Green. Apart from that, if everything runs to time (as it does on all TSW3 routes so far) then it sounds as if every run will be the same.

    Hopefully I’ll be proved wrong, though. There are lots of good things about Cross City as a choice of route, and the screenshots we’ve seen so far look great. With some other services layered in (even if only AI) to get in the way a bit and give that variation, it could be one of the best routes yet.
     
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  34. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Remains to be seen if the timetable includes Walsall services between Birmingham and Aston and vv.
     
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  35. max1313

    max1313 Active Member

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    I can only think one UK route that has adverse signals and that’s BML. All that route needs is the 700 and to fix the current bug . I have been playing BCC is TSC and there you get the 350 as AI to fill new street station. In quick drive you also get some 66 freight services as AI but other than that I don’t see too much happening
     
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  36. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Just playing devils advocate, what if ECML is 12months into a dev cycle and these routes are paying for it. Stranger things have happened. I hope somewhere commercial viability helps it over the line.

    Are routes now made differently to accept bolt on extensions or is that giving the game away?
     
  37. SonicScott91

    SonicScott91 Well-Known Member

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    Considering how much detail would need to go into either of those routes, this is an interesting theory. As long as that ECML route has a Gresley A4 or Deltic running on it, rather than an Azuma. They can do it anyway they want to ;)
     
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  38. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    No differently to previous, we have common origin points the same as we did in TS1 which makes the process of joining routes technicalyl feasible in the "old" way of doing it but there is as yet no further progress on "extension" tech that would let it happen dynamically.

    Matt.
     
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  39. seagull81006

    seagull81006 Member

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    Does this route use a pre COVID timetable or 2022 Timetable for services?
     
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  40. mattwild55

    mattwild55 Well-Known Member

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    I really think this would be something worthwhile investigating and even prioritising, not only from a gameplay point of view but actually as a sales incentive.

    At the moment I (and I'm sure others) buy some DLC not because I particularly want to drive the route but because stock from it layers into my preferred routes. For instance, I've just picked up LGV in the sale because it adds extra trains and variety to SEHS, one of my favourite routes, whereas previously it didn't figure at all into my wishlist.

    Bolt-on route extensions or network merging (however you want to call it) would effectively do the same thing but in the environmental domain as opposed to the locomotive domain (I hope this makes sense). It would also allow complex route networks (such as that around Brum) to be built up in stages and provide a varied and satisfying gameplay experience that builds on all of the hard work that the DTG team have put into it.

    For instance, the next West Midlands Network (I'm calling it that now) release could be Rugby - Stafford via New Street with a Class 350, then Trent Valley introducing the 390 (and maybe a freight loco DLC). Rivet could even contribute by doing the Coventry to Nuneaton branch with a Class 230 derived from their 484.

    The point I'm trying to make is simply that TSW's core strength is how DLC can become more than the sum of their parts through the layering and timetable systems, and bolt-on extensions are in my mind the natural endpoint of that thought.
     
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  41. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Ah well, rumor has it that you guys spent about 2 years producing SPG/ CSX Heavy Haul and look how well that turned out - still the best route overall in TSW in this player's opinion.

    Could that ever happen again? Probably not, I guess. The youngsters in the player base don't have the patience. ;)
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2022
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  42. DTG Matt

    DTG Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I mean we were also building a whole train simulator in that time too, to be fair, thankfully we dont need to do that again for each route and the tools are a tad better now too :)
     
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  43. TSW Nathan

    TSW Nathan Well-Known Member

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    I'm also looking forward to it. I hope it has a busy timetable like London Commuter
     
  44. frabjousvector

    frabjousvector Well-Known Member

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    Roadmap today, right?
     
  45. Train sim world

    Train sim world Active Member

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    yes there is
     
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  46. TSW Nathan

    TSW Nathan Well-Known Member

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    I thought it was tommorow. I guess we will see later on in the day
     
  47. Train sim world

    Train sim world Active Member

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    its today
     
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  48. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Well I sincerely hope BCC is not a burner route and we do indeed start to see extensions in all djrections. And while slightly OT for this thread I fully support starting to extend existing routes SEHS style as a viable alternative to all new projects, whether that be Boulby and Bishop Auckland on TVL, York and Liverpool on NTP, Oxford and the branches on GWE. If these extensions sell with a new loco or trainset, so much the better.
     
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  49. uvm0902

    uvm0902 Well-Known Member

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    I imagine for a moment that the Dartford-London Bridge/Charing Cross line and the Rochester-Swanley-London Victoria line are being added to the SEHS. East extension to Sherness, Ramsgate, Margate, Dover. We would get crazy gameplay. After all, sooner or later we can get it, I believe in it!

    This can happen with any railway junction and direction. Fantastic journeys await us.
     
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  50. Jpantera

    Jpantera Well-Known Member

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    Post of the week Vern, massive potential in those routes with a base to start with already. Many of us hanker after seeing enhanced already existing content not new trains and new lines every release. I am always interested in transition periods and if I was a dev would be looking to sweat popular types of traction more without diverting from reality too much. 56s and 37s are still in operation today on many different types of train although everytime some modern stuff is done licensing is needed. These types of traction attract huge numbers of enthusiasts out still and that includes younger ones. RHTT and test train work literally dominates YouTube for 37s for example. Many of us are happy to have modern units but just want something a bit different to pass or change to in timetable mode. London Commuter is needs more freight for example and the Thameslinks running to finish it off.
     
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