Newton Heath Crash - Class 08 & 47

Discussion in 'Troubleshooting' started by TinTin_57, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I was working the 0500hrs class 08 service on NTP. Approaching a red light 40 yards away and....,.,.......

    My error? Should I be able to get right to the red? Or, another signalling bug as a few have reported at various places in NTP?

     
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  2. xD 2Bad4You

    xD 2Bad4You Well-Known Member

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    I was there a bit earlier, at around 5:10 and could couple up to the wagons just fine. However on the way out i saw that 47 pulling away to the same line as mine. I had a green signal and we crashed.
    I´m not sure how the yard rules are in the UK in that time. If you drive on sight, let other trains pass and how its deceided which one is allowed to go first. So i cant really tell if its a signaling error or a user one. But given i had a green signal it looks like it could be some signaling stuff thats weird.

    On the second run i was on the crossing at around 5:11 with all wagons coupled and i could get out just in front of the other train. So it really has short timings
     
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2019
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  3. KMAN

    KMAN Well-Known Member

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    I had a similar experience with this service took 3 attempts to get it right. In some of the early morning gronk services you can hear the AI sound the whistle. Not sure if that means they have the right of way
     
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  4. xD 2Bad4You

    xD 2Bad4You Well-Known Member

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    Yeah i wondered about the whistles aswell. Could be that they indicate that they are about to cross or something.
     
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  5. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm I was working to the signal, I would expect the 47 to have a signal his end also. Let’s see. DTG have been in touch with me and will look into it
     
  6. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    in yards the headshunter is in charge not the signalman. the signalman is in charge of the mainline and not for movements in the yard or sidings. ~so basically the 08 is in charge as there is no headshunter in this game all traffic movements should wait until the shunting has been finished. i used to be a headshunter and i used to give light engines or trains the go ahead to move and i also had to know what was coming into or leaving the yard/sidings.
    the signalman would ring me and tell me what trains were around if i could let them into the yard. i would then make sure a reception road was clear for them to enter. its vice versa when i had a train ready to leave i would contact the signalman to let them know such a train was ready to leave and what signal they were waiting on
     
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  7. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks Dave. I think you are saying here that in the real world I am fine all the way to my red light 40 yards on? The 47 was on a mission and not stopping for anyone
     
  8. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    yep tintin you was correct in your movements. even if that light loco was late it should have stayed where it was until it was told it could move.
     
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  9. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    It was probably very low on fuel and in a rush to get to the pumps. ;)
     
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  10. underwaterdick

    underwaterdick Active Member

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    On one of the Brink services there was an AI whistle... Seconds before we crossed tracks inches apart. Which just turned out to be luck that we didn't hit as I didn't see it in the dark, just heard it then saw the wasp stripes on the back.

    One of the scenarios it does tell you to whistle before crossing any tracks in a yard.
     
  11. xD 2Bad4You

    xD 2Bad4You Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I´ve learned that apparently Loco´s created by Meshtools do whistle when they are near a player.
     
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  12. underwaterdick

    underwaterdick Active Member

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    Just doing "Vans to red bank" and narrowly missed a 47 on the same line by seconds. Thankfully I came to a stop fully loaded, just as the gap was big enough for them to squeeze past.

    Then I noticed the points were all set for the AI service and greyed out until it passed over them! So of ever you see greyed out points in the map view, it is because an AI service is using that route.

    Now the 47 is blocking my line... Turns out that it wants to come down the branch I am on in some kind of stalemate. Very strange situation. Does this mean I was too quick, or too slow at picking up my wagons? - about to reverse back into the siding and see what happens ...
     
  13. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I think you have it there re the timing. I did have a good look around before I set off in the crash above. As I wasn't due anywhere against any sort of timetable you assume its ok. I think maybe the AI don't account for latecomers
     
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  14. rhysdabeast0011

    rhysdabeast0011 Member

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    Might play this service just to get this to happen for myself
     
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  15. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    TinTin_57: in your video, based on the destination marker, it seems that you were headed in the wrong direction. If this is the service I think it is and you were picking up a second cut of goods vans, which- requires pulling out of the previous siding just enough to reset points and then picking up a second cut there. For this maneuver, the destination marker is near the second cut.
    Is that possible?
     
  16. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Second set was right next to me so I had to come out from where I was upto the red (according to the map), then reverse back in again to connect with them.

    Thing is that I should have been able to go all the way to the red in complete safety. Thats the strange thing
     
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  17. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I can't think of any TSW activity (not that I've run them all, of course) that instructs the player to advance to a red signal (which is not the same thing as being told to stop before reaching one), although being told to wait for a red to change to yellow or green is common at the start of an activity; thus your assumption that you should be able to drive right up to the red is, in many cases, faulty. Rather, the player is told to stop at or go via a specific location; however, reaching that location may involve completing two or more maneuvers. Instructions, especially in shunting activities, are becoming more and more sophisticated, in the sense that they require the player to set points/switches, with or without providing specific instructions to that effect, and to take the time to study the required maneuver before just launching into it. Using the 2D map to check destinations and look for other traffic without spending much time doing so is becoming more and more important. I'm enjoying these challenges, even though they sometimes require restarting an activity -- and not always from the previous save point.

    By the way, the video you posted is the first time that I've seen a collision occur in TSW -- the experience is certainly much improved over the sky-high explosive spins found in TS.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  18. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    I would have thought though that the red provides safety for anyone either side of it. For there to be a red in front of me is suggestive of being ‘this is the point you don’t go beyond, stay this side you are fine’. Dave Mel has real world experience of it and confirmed as much above. Others have reported a near miss with it too but I assume they didn’t go as far forward.

    On the video it is green then rapidly goes yellow and red as I assume it realised the 47 is coming in at a rate of knots. I think unless DTG acknowledges if it’s a bug or not we won’t know the answer for real
     
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  19. underwaterdick

    underwaterdick Active Member

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    This seems perfectly normal to me, and a feature of having AI running around yards.

    As I say, I had no idea that the AI were there until the last second and it passed in front of me, blocking my route.

    And yes, on that scenario the yard to the red light should be yours to move the wagons in, only, like me, you were too slow and another loco moved into the yard.
     
  20. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I just ran the session in which you experienced a crash and can confirm that you had driven well past the points to be reset so as to reach the second goods van pickup. During the first part of this session, while the two racks of goods vans are being picked up, there is quite a lot of other traffic in the area where you are working. It has been carefully programmed so as not to interfere with the work you are doing, providing that you follow the instructions without going beyond them. This is, in my opinion, an excellent example of how scenarios and sessions should be programmed.
     
  21. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    NO! in this session the driver is instructed to pick up two racks of goods vans. To reach the second rack, the driver is given a specific destination on a track adjacent to the one where he just picked up the first rack. To reach that specific destination, the driver has to move away from the track where the first pickup took place just enough to clear the points that will allow entry to the track where the second rack is located: NOT to drive to the nearest red signal. Period.
     
  22. underwaterdick

    underwaterdick Active Member

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    I wasn't saying that the signal HAD to be driven to.
    I have done the scenario and know they are in adjacent lines.
    I also know that locos are moving around.

    You don't appear to want to listen to anyone.

    I have even had my exit lane blocked by a class 47 in a scenario. The 47 cut up the points ahead of me, moved out of the yard lead in, the driver changed ends and they pulled up to the sidings red entry signal.
    There was no way round the loco, and it wasn't moving because either I was in its way, or the points were incorrectly set for its intended route.
    This was the route I was instructed to take, not me having free reign of the yard.

    Collisions are perfectly possible if you are not paying attention visually. It is NOT a feature of you straying two foot past the junction of a point.
    FULL STOP

    And after watching the video again, I firmly believe that the 08 had ONLY JUST allowed the rear of the wagons to clear the points that required changing and did NOT pull miles forward through the yard.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2019
  23. TinTin_57

    TinTin_57 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, as said earlier I was 40 odd yards from the red and was going far enough ‘I thought’ to clear where I needed to be to reverse again. My intention wasn’t to go to the red, I thought I was safe behind it. If you watch the video I was spending that much time looking at the map looking at the points, I was going over fast and hit the brakes.

    So in real life, how does the 08 driver know how far he has to pull forward with the rake of wagons behind him to be sufficiently clear of the points he needs to then be able to reverse again? Is that not the red light which signifies the furthest he can travel? Any answer has to apply to what we have here in TSW. So if the real world driver has a spotter, or someone at the back on a radio that doesn’t count. He also doesn’t have an interactive map as we have.

    Also, someone plainly tell me what that red signals use is if you can’t go up to it, whether the instructions say that or not.
     
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