No Yellow Signals Before Red.

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by iDidntAsk#4635, Apr 25, 2021.

  1. iDidntAsk#4635

    iDidntAsk#4635 New Member

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    I was operating the BR 101 to Duisburg Station. I was traveling at 150kph, and I passed a Green Signal, then all of an sudden a Red Signal is right ahead. Because of the Red Signal being right ahead of me, I didn’t have enough time and distance to apply a Full Service Application, until I eventually passed the Red Signal and: Game Over.

    DTG needs to add a yellow signal upon approaching Red Signals in Haupstrecke: Rhein-Ruhr because that’s unacceptable and a waste of my time.
     
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  2. forteanjo

    forteanjo Active Member

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    Yeah, got something similar and it's about the one time a SPaD has resulted in a certain crash (if I could share the vid, it looks great as the screen fades to black as an on-coming train powers towards your cab!!)

    Now that you know it's there, though, you can anticipate it and use the map to monitor the progress of the other train(s).
     
  3. diamondderp

    diamondderp Well-Known Member

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    The yellow-green distance signal is ‘missing’. The signal itself is there but it won’t show you yellow-green before the yellow-yellow distance signal. (This information becomes more clear when you drive with PZB).
     
  4. DaVeTheDaVer

    DaVeTheDaVer Member

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    The Signal in the HUD shows only Green and than comes after the one green "Red" in about 450meters. But if you Look the Signals on track you will see a yellow Signal. Its just bad because if you just trust the HUD, you will pass the Red signal for sure.

    Now i always be careful 6,5km before Duisburg and watch the Signals on the track
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  5. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’ve noticed a few times on various services the need to suddenly whack on the brakes as you go from a green to a red signal on HRR since the 101 was introduced (whilst driving the 101). I can’t remember what services off the top of my head, but I’ve triggered PZB far more than I ever have before.
     
  6. diamondderp

    diamondderp Well-Known Member

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    Take a look at the distant signal aspects in this screenshot:
    Schermafbeelding 2021-04-25 om 11.00.18.png

    Normally, you get first aspect C and then A and after that a red signal, but on HRR it skips aspect C and goes immediately to aspect A.
     
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  7. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Just run service IC2450, where you are behind a freight train much of the way. The signals are definitely messed up on this service. I would say they need to be looked at urgently really.
     
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  8. Dave Mel

    Dave Mel Well-Known Member

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    i have spad a few times entering duisberg. there seems something wrong with the signalling. or speed boards are missing, i have noticed 2 speed boards when maybe just over a klm out 2 boards pointing down but they are just black or grey but cant read numbers on them. im thinking do they need turning so the light shines on them
     
  9. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’ve had a few PZB stops, which I’m not sure of the reason for triggering. One minute everything seems fine, the next I’m coming to an abrupt halt. I’m not noticing anything untoward before hand. All very odd. Hopefully DTG can fix it ASAP.

    I’ve got all the trophies for the 101 now.
     
  10. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    It seems on HRR that some speed reduction signs are either missing or effectively invisible- missing one can cause a penalty braking like you've experienced. (Warning for the unwary: the HUD shows German green/yellow and flashing green signals as green- don't trust it!)

    I'm having a different signal problem on HRR: on the majority of the freight services, you start at a red signal which never clears. It seems the signals on that route are truly borked.
     
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  11. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I've not experienced this when I did a fair amount of freight, however this was prior to the 101.

    Can you give an example service? I'll give a go and see.
     
  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    DB87303 Eastbound Mixed Freight, for one.

    UPDATE: Traffic jam. If one has the patience to wait 13 minutes, like I didn't yesterday, then there's a break in the passenger traffic and you get a Proceed Medium. Your cue is when two Regios pass by, one in either direction. But it's still looking like a PZB-fest of adverse signals all the way.

    UPDATE 2: very busy as far as Essen; after that it clears up and it's plain sailing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  13. iDidntAsk#4635

    iDidntAsk#4635 New Member

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    Well, most of the services do this problem.
     
  14. F.Barnes

    F.Barnes Active Member

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    That's wrong!
    The distant signal yellow/yellow means: next main signal is RED (Stop)
    The distant signal green/yellow means: next main signal is green/yellow (40km/h speed limit until end of switching area)

    There is no relation between a green/yellow and a yellow/yellow distant signal!
    The distant signals at your picture:
    A) Next main signal -> red (stop)
    B) Next main signal -> green
    C) Next main signal -> green/yellow (40km/h until end of switching area)
    D) Next main signal -> green (distance to main signal more than 5% shorter as usual .... normally used as a distant signal repeater)
    (Edit: sorry .... mixed up a and b, now it is correct.)

    --> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_signals_in_Germany#Main_signal/distant_signal_(H/V)_system

    --> http://www.tf-ausbildung.de/SignalbuchOnline/signalbuchonline.htm
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
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  15. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    Just runned it in ps5, with sifa and pzb. No problem on the route and signal and arrived at duisburg at 12:39:16 and techically in time
     
  16. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    Runned all freight service, and i have found just 2 problems. 1 near bochum yard were the signal not inform you abaut the 20kmh section and the second one that some service for bochum starts too early and you need to wait up to 5 train before start.
     
  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that one keeps catching me. IRL one would think there would be a Zs3v/Zs3 protecting it when the route diverges into the yard.

    Another one: approaching Bochum on the main (passenger) line there is a reduction to 80, but there is no Lf6 warning of it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 25, 2021
  18. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    The problem is that in real life that one is a shutting yard and not a parking yard for freight. Normally if you run at 120kmh (light freight) you will see first (in kv signal) a flashing green (speed change incoming) as a distant, than you will see green with the 4 (yellow number) for upcoming reduction and than you will see the shutting signal as a main, red with the 2 pin white. And you will go in the yard after this one, because the shutting signal means max 20kmh after this one. But normally we driver got an info incase we need to go in shutting yard o some "special" speed reduction directly from the cab signal man (i don't know the correct name in english). For the 80 yes i know and i say the 140 at the station before bochum that need to be indicated on the kv signal
     
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  19. sukihersch

    sukihersch New Member

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    Ok, can someone clarify whether or not it should be the case that a red Main signal be preceded by a green-and-yellow Main signal? This is what would happen in the parallel situation in the British system, but is this just not necessary in Germany?
     
  20. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    My understanding is that it should go:

    Green > Yellow/Green > Double Yellow > Red
     
  21. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    No that is different in german
    A red main comes after a yellow yellow signal.
    The yellow-green indicates a switch area incoming and if you haven't a number near it, you need to brake around 40Kmh.
    Than there are the ks signals, where the red comes after a main yellow. And the main yellow comes after a flashing green distant signal.
    Yellow-green distant: start brake to 40kmh
    Yellow-green main: 40kmh from this point until a new info (signal or board line info)
     
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  22. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    No it is incorrect.
    Hp signal
    Yellow-yellow > red

    Ks signal
    Flashing green > yellow > red
    And sometimes you have a second yellow before the red
     
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  23. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Since advance signals are usually about 1-1.2 km from the main signal, that double yellow should be plenty of warning to get stopped. Though it helps to start braking as soon as you see it, not when you pass it.
     
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  24. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    This is how works in real life, and if the main becomes green as soon as you pass the distant yellow-yellow (you know it for the HUD but in real life a driver think that is red until you see it) you need to continue to run at 40kmh
     
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  25. F.Barnes

    F.Barnes Active Member

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    Wrong!
    KS Signal: yellow > red

    Flashing green (Ks1) only as a distant signal with a speed indicator (Zs 3v -> yellow number beneath).
    It says: You have to slow down and pass the next signal with the announced speed.
    The next signal could be:
    a) Ks1 Zs 3 (green with white speed indicator above) (not flashing)
    b) Ks2 Zs3 (yellow with white speed indicator above) (not flashing)

    A flashing Ks1 signal without the Zs 3v speed indicator does not exist!

    You find all possible Ks signal combinations right here:
    -> http://www.tf-ausbildung.de/SignalbuchOnline/kssignalbilder.htm
     
    Last edited: Apr 26, 2021
  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    In general, don't trust the HUD on German routes. For one thing, it only reflects main signals, not advance signals, so you will almost never see a yellow in the HUD (reflecting a yellow/yellow). It also, bizarrely, reports green/yellow and flashing green aspects as "green.' And it never repeats Zs3 signal speed limits, only the Lf7 fixed signs. Use your eyes and watch the signals!
     
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  27. sukihersch

    sukihersch New Member

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    You seem to be talking somewhat at crossed purposes. Are you saying "a yellow Ks signal need not necessarily be preceded by a flashing green signal" (or some other more restrictive signal)? Or are you just talking about something parallel to what delucadomenico2009 actually said?
     
  28. F.Barnes

    F.Barnes Active Member

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    Just to clearify:
    A yellow Ks signal (Ks2) need not necessarily be preceded by a flashing green signal (Ks1 Zs3v)!

     
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  29. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    The flashing green indicate a new speed restriction incoming with the number. It can be a reapiter too. However the correct sequence with ks is: green(d) > yellow(m) > yellow(d) > red(m)
    If there is a combined signal (distant and main at the same point) it is just > green(d) > yellow(c) > red(m).
    In this case normally the green is flashing because the braking area is shorter than normal (just 2 blocks) so the flashing green (maybe with 8 or 10) inform you to slow down for a slower section and than when the yellow comes you will slow down to 40kmh up to red.
    I don't like a lot the correct form cooming from manuals, i just say what normally happen in real life. The ks system has been created to improve the hard braking section that happen with the Hp one, expetially at 160kmh.
     
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  30. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    Ps. The really problem of the game is that the HUD show you the mani switching signal as a normal main signal. So for exemple, approaching to duisburg happen to see yellow > green > red with the red just 450 after the green.
     
  31. F.Barnes

    F.Barnes Active Member

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    I don't know from whatscource yourinformations are, but they are not correct.
    And the original "DB Signalbuch" were i get my informations from, is not a manual, it is a
    binding guideline from the Deutsche Bahn!


    DB Signalbuch: https://www.google.com/url?q=https:...FjAAegQICBAB&usg=AOvVaw35IK7PX1RNqRbq31u19yy_

    The Ks signal system was not created to improve hard braking!
    It was developed because of the reunion of east and west germany. West germany had the Hp/Vr signal system and
    east germany the Hl signal system. Both were incompatible to each other.
    The Ks signal system was developed to replace the old systems.
    The most important improvement of the Ks signal ist the possibility to use main signals as distant signals or
    as distant signal repeater.
    If you see 2 yellow signals before a red signal, the second yellow could be a distant signal repeater (Ks2 with a white point
    in the lower left)
    These repeater are between the first yellow and the red signal. The distance between the first yellow and the red signal is not longer, if there is a signal repeater.
     
  32. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    It seems that the Br 101 DLC is absolutely packed with user errors/misinterpretations labeled bugs. Perhaps Matt should consider doing a video on the German signalling system. I admit that I‘ve got an advantage as I‘m German, but just like PZB, the German signalling system is very intuitive once you‘ve grasped the basic logic behind it.
     
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  33. sukihersch

    sukihersch New Member

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    You are in luck
     
  34. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Ah, didn‘t know Matt covered signals as I never watched that video. I haven‘t got the time to watch the video now, but I‘m not sure if he went into enough details. The fact that German signals only cover one block (with very few exceptions) seems to be really confusing to people.
     
  35. sukihersch

    sukihersch New Member

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    Yes this certainly seems to be the main issue for people more used to other systems – it certainly is the case for me (as you can see from my earlier posts)
     
  36. sukihersch

    sukihersch New Member

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    nb. the links in your sig have just resolved a strange PZB encounter I had yesterday that I was going to post a question about! Passed a 120km/h warning board then 'randomly' got the emergency brakes about 15 seconds later – which I didn't know could happen for a sign that didn't need acknowledging :s
     
  37. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    Thats not correct you can get distant signal A immediately.
    There is no such thing that aspect C precedes A.
     
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  38. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Very happy that my link helped you! Yes, the Geschwindigkeitsprüfabschnitte (as they're called in German) are not explained in any TSW documentation. The site in my link is the only one I could find which explains these in English. I'm always happy to see more people explore PZB in its entirety :D
     
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