Not Going The Extra Mile

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by Samo1, Aug 19, 2020.

  1. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    DTG do a very good job with TSW but I’m so frustrated they never go the extra mile and polish routes, I know each route facies time constraints but adding announcements and even animated ticket machines would turn a decent experience into a more immersive experience, providing benches you can’t sit on, end of line passengers that don’t leave trains, the Bakerloo line speed limit from the back of the train and not the front, so many little things spoil the overall package and the dev team should be aware of these very very annoying niggles, especially when you release content knowing these niggles exist, each route released should be as good as you can make them, sometimes the experience feels good but very bare bones and that a real shame and a sense of frustration for me and I’m sure I’m not alone, file this under constructive criticism but I’m still looking forward to TSW2

    Please please please go the extra mile to make the product shine without the niggling annoyances that never get fixed or added, that would make a good but not great overall package feel more alive, real and more immersive

    here’s hoping
     
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  2. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    It's good criticism.

    The extra mile, as you describe it, is a very good way to think of it. In some cases, like the Bakerloo speed limit, this happens because of the way the game is built: it was never designed to have signals trigger from the rear of the train. To add that functionality is a major amount of work, and we'd have to drop something else from the list to add it.

    Animated ticket machines is a good example from the other end - a small piece of immersive flare that would bring a smile and isn't a massive amount of work. Again however, it comes at a cost - what should we drop to have animated ticket machines?

    There comes a point when developing any game (or software) where you have to say "that's as far as we can afford to go". The development team would almost certainly like to keep going and add more, to go that extra mile, but without limits you end up never shipping the game. Five years pass, and there's still more to do.

    Speaking with Matt after yesterday's stream he gave me an update on what the team are working on. Right now the main piece of effort is on completing the Preserved Collection. Once they're done with that the route-builders will join those who are already working on upcoming routes, modellers will do likewise. The core engineering team however is going to move onto tool development in the short term.

    Tools are something you don't get to see, but they aid our development significantly. Basically, the tools are what make the process of building new routes faster and better. One of the first tools they'll work on is for PIS. They'll take the prototype used on the Bakerloo line and turn it into something that can be used on other routes in the future, but better than it does now. The end result being more regular use of PIS in future routes - extra polish. Obviously, there's more to it than that but I'm simplifying for the purpose of an example. The extra mile, if we go for it all at once results in a major elongation of development time and cost, and is not an effective way to work.

    Building, then iterating tools allows us to move forward in increments that, much like the frog in a gradually heated pan of water, don't seem like much if viewed close up, but over time amount to something far more significant.
     
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  3. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the in-depth reply, I read and enjoyed the roadmap and will continue to keep updated, I realise the preserved collection will be a handful in the near future and there is some very good stuff to come after that, I certainly look forward to the new stuff and I 110% understand that DTG has the bills to pay especially at this very difficult time we live in but lots of SMALL improvements would make a BIG overall difference to the game and I sincerely hope the team can at some point find the time and add the gloss and polish this game deserves because it does deliver on so many levels, just for the record I’m a very mature gamer of over 35 years and this Is a top game that could excel with just a bit more love and attention to detail in my opinion, again just file this under constructive criticism
     
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  4. Slemcer

    Slemcer Well-Known Member

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    This is indeed a very interesting thread, and I think it's the right place to post one topic which has been bothering me for some time.
    I've seen on the roadmap that there are numerous new routes in the chain, with many different styles, so that everyone can find something that suits their taste. That's quite admirable. But then I see several routes in countries that don't use English as standard language and also have some unusual letters, e.g. in German the umlauts and in French the accents. I also see frequently used converted spellings for certain German cities (Cologne instead of Köln, Munich instead of München). I'd want to encourage DTG to pay attention to these things and do them right and not to spoil the immersion.
    The worst example I've seen so far were the route maps (one part of the collectables) of the RRO route, which contain so many easily avoidable typos ....
    So please go that extra mile! :D
     
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  5. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    I fully understand that. But the trouble as I see it is that when new features get gradually introduced they rarely get added to the existing routes we've already bought.

    Extra features, polish and fixes being added to existing routes as you continue to make advances would go a long way to keeping folks contented with their investment into TSW. And would then also probably help in sales of further dlc.

    While the game continues to develop the best route is always the next route. It'd be nice to go a mile back occasionally. :)

    Just an observation. ;)
     
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  6. BROCK

    BROCK Active Member

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    I just want to run an intermodal train on Sandpatch, that's all.
     
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  7. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’d love to see the older routes getting tweaks and updates to improve them over time. It seems such a shame they should be stunted as they happened to come sooner rather than later.
     
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  8. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I think it boils down to what expectations people have, I try to remember DTG is a small developer team, compared to the more known AAA studios and that they don’t have an infinite amount of money and extra developers to work on those small things. In that context I think they are personally doing a great job.
     
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  9. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    The usual £25 for a route is not exactly cheap, regardless of the size of the dev team, customer satisfaction could be lifted and maybe even more sales obtained if all the annoyances were ironed out and older routes weren’t ignored, couldn’t a few extra devs be added to the team? DTG know exactly what needs to be done and what should have been done and I think it would benefit the product as a whole if they addressed those issues and it would enhance their reputation at the same time
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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  10. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    DTG charging $30 for a route is expensive compared to what other company charging for train routes? With the amount of time and work it takes to create a route $30 seems fair to me for the quality. The fact that Train simulator world will only appeal to a small group of people compared to more main stream games, $30 seems fair to me. As they create more routes they will learn tools and shortcuts to make development easier and eventually they will be able to focus on the smaller details.
     
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  11. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    The last of us part 2 cost £50 and was in development for nearly SIX years! Ok different size companies but it’s all relevant, I think if you did a survey the majority would think £25 expensive and see £15 as a sweet spot but this is off topic, the post is about quality not price and going the extra mile
     
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  12. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    It’s human nature to want things cheaper. The price is what it is, you either pay it or you don’t. Personally, the amount of gameplay and pleasure I get from the routes, I think the price is reasonable, but I get why people might think otherwise.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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  13. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    The two things are very very closely related.
     
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  14. olikas.g

    olikas.g Member

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    When I buy any digital content I compare the price to either a cinema ticket or a movie purchase in iTunes (not netflix, and other subscription services). A movie gives me about 5 hours of entertainment in a year. So if a DLC costs me twice the price of a movie (this is roughly £25), I expect at least 10 hours of entertainment from it. To this measure all existing routes qualified, much less the loco DLCs. TSW2 will definitely give me more than 10 hours of entertainment, so it qualifies. E.g. the NTP with the buggy class 47 was quite good as I didn't know why I can't complete some scenarios so I did the route many times. And now that it is fixed I enjoyed it even more. On the other hand WSR was beautiful, but less entertaining.

    To be on topic, I would definitely appreciate the extra mile especially if it about the scenery. The trains are already detailed enough, but some of the scenery is quite generic. More building models, more tree models, better sky, shadows etc. I know I'm one of those who cares less about simulation accuracy and more about the look, and I hope I'm not alone, as long as they make the safety systems opt out, I don't complain for better simulation.
     
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  15. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    When the game has sim in the title it needs to feel and act like a sim, as for scenery I would take less for a higher, stutter free frame rate but that’s personal taste
     
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  16. Patrick Kolinski

    Patrick Kolinski Active Member

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    100% right! Try fix the existing problems instead creating just new routes...
     
  17. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, and as £25 per route isn't cheap, the quality sometimes is lacking for such a price.
     
  18. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    With polish the routes need and a bit longer routes as well I would happily pay £25, I STILL DO pay £25 for routes but in the present form of quality and length I do question whether it is value for money and I think many feel the same, not fixing long standing issues lacks a bit of respect for the customer who is after all keeping this company going with their loyalty but that respect needs to go both ways
     
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  19. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    To someone who doesn’t know much about the game industry or if we are being naive and just looking at money spent on a game then that’s fair, but I think we know more then then average person. We can’t compare a Sony first party studio game by the best studio in the business that had millions of dollars backed behind them by Sony. The Last of us 2 had sold 4 million copies by June 21st. Not knowing how many copies TSW sold but looking at the average player count on steam since launch it sits between 100-300 average concurrent players, that’s not including on console obviously. The difference in numbers obviously shows that Train simulator world and dlc won’t move 4 million units. I’m sure they would love to be able to charge less for routes but with the amount of work that has to be put in and the amount of people buying train routes I think $30 is a reasonable price for a route.
     
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  20. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’d rather pay £25 a route and have DTG making train games than paying £15 a route and seeing them go under.
     
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  21. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    For someone that plays TSW on console, do you have any other recommendations on other train simulators on consoles I could compare the quality and price with?
    I’m not saying the routes are perfect how they are. I think when you look at what DTG have done since the TSW2 announcement and with TSW2 in general, they have been going the extra mile. Things like the road map, Q&A streams, communication on the forums, listening to our feedback are all things that didn’t happen until recently. Is there things on the route that could be improved? Yes, but them acknowledging that and wanting to change that is going the extra mile in my eyes. We all enjoy this hobby and that’s why we are here, that’s also why we are willing to pay $30 for a train route, because we love doing it, and we enjoy having content for what we love.
     
    Last edited: Aug 19, 2020
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  22. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    =======================

    For someone that plays TSW on console, do you have any other recommendations on other train simulators on consoles I could compare the quality and price with?

    Now you have hit the nail on the head!!!! If DTG had a quality rival they would have to up the quality of the product, they don’t and that to some respects has made them lazy and the reason why THEY DON’T go the extra mile because they don’t need to, competition makes for a better all around experience
     
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  23. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    To be honest I've never complained about the price of a route. My complain is firmly that it's a lot of money to charge when there's no aftercare and no bug fixes. If they want a £25 price tag, then that's their prerogative, however the aftercare should match that of a £25 product.
     
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  24. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    Agree
     

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