Now I Understand About The Aws Learning Curve Lol!

So im on GWR hst. Had a loook on youtube about aws, beforehand, and was pondering in wether i dare try it. Glad i did as it adds more concentration to the route. The downside? The bugger kicked in at 124mph and emergeny braked me. Well thats my timetable screwed lol. Christ you have to be quick! Oh, does anyone know how to activate aws on bcc? Found the fuse, but nowt else.

 

All safety systems are over on the right of the cab on the vertical panel from memory, not played it in a while..

 

Try the German ones. Then you'll be focusing on that screen like your life depends on it.
If you've never used PZB/Sifa\LZB then have a look on the train simulator YouTube channel as Matt has done a tutorial video which will answer most things for you in the first instance

 

They are indeed. Thanks for that. Always seen them before but took notice of them. Gonna be using this in the future.

 

I watched said youtube channel a few times. Still buggers me lol. I reckon best thing to do is get used to uk safety systems and go from there.

 

Yep, with AWS you get a few seconds to hit the Q button or the alert button on a raildriver.
Need to pay a bit more attention than you otherwise would
To my mind all systems should be on by default in timetable mode as they would be in real life.

 

PTGRail has an excellent video on German signals. There's much more on the channel I haven't watched yet.

 

I think the best way to start with the German safety systems is to accept the fact that you’re going to learn them one emergency stop at a time!

However, it’s quite immersive and very satisfying to complete a difficult run navigating all the safety systems properly. Reminds me of one of my favorite phrases at work: “Good judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgment.“

 

At least AWS takes account of any adjustments you make to the controls (which prove you're still alive and conscious) and resets its timer. The German equivalent (SIFA) goes off every 30 seconds(?) regardless of what else is going on in the cab, usually while you're in the middle of some complex PZB acknowledgement and speed reduction process.

 

That's DVD or DSD rather than AWS
AWS is the magnets in the track which warn a driver they need to pay attention to something specific such as adverse signals or an upcoming speed change

 

Quite right, Ruscoe - minor brain fart on my part

 

That's the best thing anyone has ever said! XD

 

Happens to us all (I blame age)

 

Try the German and future Austrian PZB LZB and Sifa. If you are on the console make you actually plug in a keyboard to use the following buttons Del (German & Austrian Keyboard Entf) PZB Override PZB release End Key (German & Austrian Keyboard Ende) Page Down PZB Acknowledge.
For AWS TPWS DSD on UK routes post 1989 you should not be spamming the Q button Circle PS4/PS5 Xbox B Button here's a quote on that.

 

Oh, i only acknowledge when needed. It's a brilliant system, and a game changer. The german system, well thats one hell of a learning curve lol.I'm still learning so appreciate the hints and tips

 

AWS is actually a safety system I find helpful. It helps me paying that extra concentrations when it's needed, warning me about restrictions. It also helps in cases where I can't see wether distant signals are on my track or the adjacent one. The 'ping' always confirms the green light is mine. Also in tight curves with bad visibility on signals the AWS signal gives you info before the signal does. It's also an extremely simple system, unlike PZB which I never really understood and have never actually used.

The only other safety system I always use is the German LZB. It's fairly easy to understand once you got the hang of it (basically all it does is telling you X distance to X speed restriction), and it's pretty much mandatory at high speed ( >160km/h ) if you want to react to restrictions in time.

Then there's DSD and Sifa, which is just a dead mans switch, doesn't really add much IMO. (Sure, it adds to safety IRL, but I don't find it a fun system to use in my virtual train sim entertainment.)

And then there's TPWS which I don't really know what it actually is. Some trains seem to have AWS and TPWS combined, and I never really noticed any difference.

 

You’ve hit the nail on the head with regards to the benefits of AWS and that is exactly why it was brought in.

TPWS is in the background and you’ll only interact with the system if you’ve done something wrong which is why you won’t know much about it. TPWS comprises of grids in the six foot (in between the running rails). There will be a trigger speed so if you’re going too quickly, the grids will activate the TPWS system on your train hence triggering an emergency brake application. They can be found on the approach to/at stop signals, on the approach to large reductions in speed and on the approach to buffer stops. Note not all signals have TPWS grids but generally those that are high risk if they were to be SPAD’ed. For example, a signal protecting a junction.

When they are found on the approach to a signal, they are only active when the signal is at danger. Typically they are 300-400 metres away from a red signal. Let’s say the trigger speed is 43mph, if you happen to be doing 44mph as you pass over the grids, you are deemed to be going too quickly on the approach to the red signal which will then activate an emergency brake application (the red ‘brake demand’ light in the cab will be flashing).

Where they are found at the stop signal (as in literally right adjacent to it), the trigger speed is 0mph. So even doing 1 mph passing a red signal that is fitted with grids will cause an emergency brake application. Again, the grids are only active when the signal is at danger.

Where they are found on the approach to buffer stops, these are generally set at 10mph. They are usually 2.5 coach lengths away from the buffer stops. A good practice is to make sure there is plenty of day light between the needle and 10mph on the speedometer so as not to accidentally be going too fast. As the saying goes, 9 is fine, 8 is great and 7 is heaven. (numbers being speed in mph over grids approaching buffer stops).

If you’re interested to know how the TPWS grids work: they act in pairs. The first grid is known as the “arming” loop and the second grid is known as the “trigger loop.” When you go past the arming loop, the TPWS antenna picks this up and starts a pre-set countdown on-board the train. If your train reaches the “trigger” loop before the countdown has finished, this means you are travelling above the trigger speed hence causing an emergency brake application on your train.

When you start up the cab, you should actually check that all light 3 lights on the TPWS panel light up. Once you’ve pressed the AWS magnet, they will extinguish. If you were to trigger TPWS grids, the red “brake demand” light would be flashing. Once you’ve acknowledged the brake demand by pressing the AWS magnet, the red “brake demand” light will change from flashing to steady. After 60 seconds has elapsed from the moment TPWS was triggered (and you’ve pressed the AWS magnet), the light will go out and you will be able to get brake release again.

This is a simple overview, hope it makes sense

 

That’s how I always explain it. AWS is there to help the driver, PZB is there to control the driver.

 

One thing I would add to this:
TPWS is NOT supposed to stop someone from SPADding, they're far too close to the signal or buffer for that if a driver really is going too fast. They're there to minimise accidents in the case of an overrun and to bring the train to a proper stop so the driver can check themselves and do what they need to do.
The assumption is that the driver will be mindful and attentive at all times, but if there's a lapse this warning will bring them back to their task
Of course, all such things are now recorded so there will be repercussions of the "meetings" type, possibly resulting in a "change of job" type

 

Wouldn’t completely agree with this especially with many modern resignalling projects hence why I said it was a basic overview and don’t want to get into the details. In many cases, they do prevent SPADs from happening and arguably designed as such

 

If TPWS was there in 1999, the Networker Turbo would still have Passed SN109 at danger, but might have stopped before the points, avoiding a collision. Therefore, I side with ARuscoe.

However, the driver's knowledge of TPWS and overspeed loops before signals may result in them focusing slightly more before approaching a red signal, therefore reducing the number of SPAD, which supports Olaf's point.

It is difficult... maybe it does both...

 

No, I mean it physically prevents SPADs from happening when it triggers the emergency brake application on the train. Nothing to do with driver behaviour.

 

Oh right fine yes no that makes sense. Because the overspeed loops. I was thinking more in terms of a 124mph train, but a 30mph train will be stopped before the signal.

So it does do both! Nice!

 

I was going by a document I read last year when going for a driver's job and it specifically stated it was NOT designed to stop a SPAD but was to minimize the chances of an accident, ie the train should stop before fouling points or junction, but would still run the light.
I imagine the distance to stop a train from 30mph would be more than the distance between the grids and the light. Obviously would be different if the overspeed was in single digits

 

I reckon an EMU like a Networker with enhanced emergency braking (whatever that means) could be stopped in time from 30 mph.

 

Possibly light or units with powerful brakes could. Not sure about a pendo, full rake 225 etc could, let alone freight...

 

Oh yeah no those have no hope (although I hear a Pendolino can stop from like 60mph in its own length so it may work - probably need an uphill gradient though)

 

I wouldn't want to be stood in the bar / cafe when one of those things slams on the anchors to stop almost 500tonnes from 60mph within 450 meters (which is the furthest grid to signal I can find even though that's further than I thought they were)

 

You are spot on the topic and it's actually in game between Paddington Station and Old Oak Common Depot. SN109 is GWML Westbound. That time class 166 doesn't have the TPWS Panel nowadays it has that

 

In theory aws should be foolproof. You usually get 2 yellow lights indicating the next signal is a single yellow that indicates the next signal is a stop signal. So for whatever reason if the driver does not acknowledge the alarm at the 2 yellows, the emergency brakes will apply giving the train 2 signal blocks to stop.

Isn't tpws different from aws? I thought tpws could trigger the emergency brake if a train passes the sensor speeding, I.e passing 2 yellows way to fast automatically triggers the brakes?

 

AWS and TPWS are unrelated systems. AWS doesn't do anything really except tell the driver "Look out, something's coming up" and doesn't govern anything other than the driver being awake enough to shut off the horn. TPWS is more proactive as a speed control system; its loops are not necessarily, or even very often, placed to coincide with signals aside from the STOP loops at every main signal. Speed limit loops can be placed anywhere, and although they are most common at platforms and on station approaches, they can be placed out on the main line to catch speeders too.

 

There IS no speeding through two yellows other than the normal line speed or VMAX of the train, mainly because the distance between signals in the UK isn't fixed. You could have a double yellow with almost 2 miles til the red, or like between Milwall and London Bridge where the signals are often very close together so you could see the red from the yellows...
AWS is a warning that something hazardous is happening, be it adverse signals or a speed change above 33% down
TPWS is max speed at a certain point of track depending on conditions, ie turned on and off it lights are red etc.

 

Definitely think the safety systems should be part of the training on each train.

 

Personally I would have a specific section in the training centre for basics and advanced... The UK system is easy enough that once you do it once there's very few "tweaks around the edges"
I'm sure the german systems would need more as they're more complex

 

No, TPWS is only connected to signals in the case of red signals. Yellow signals, unlike in countries like Germany, do not impose any speed limit on the driver in the UK.

 

The aws will apply the emergency brake if you don't acknowledge it.
I think in rl a driver should reduce their speed when approach 2 yellow aspect. Usually I hold at 70mph if the next signal is 2 yellows. Then reduce further to 45mph when approaching a signal yellow.

 

I think this user has me blocked... anyway, for others
IRL a driver would know the distance between the signals and act accordingly. I also reduce speed in game at double and single yellows, but there isn't a safety system I know of which enforces it

 

Oh I thought it had something to do with approach control also? Like if you was approach a speed restriction to fast tpws could stop the train?

 

Yes, but that's unrelated to yellow signals. A driver should reduce their speed when passing a yellow, but what to is entirely based on their judgment - signals in the UK do not impose any sort of speed restrictions.

 

Both are effectively a means to control a driver's behavior, as both will intervene in the event of an incorrect action, "do X or otherwise train will do Y" is the basic equation, Y is apply the emergency brakes in both systems.

In the case of AWS, X is simply acknowledge an alarm, which indicates the presence of a non-clear signal or some other specific danger.

In the case of PZB, X is acknowledge the signal or restriction, and start braking at a sufficient rate within a certain amount of time.

In the end, AWS alone is not enough to offer a fully protective system, as drivers acknowledging AWS and then proceeding into danger (by accident of course) is still enough of a risk for accidents to occur with a loss of life. TPWS is the result of BR/Railtrack being compelled to install something else that would intervene if drivers do something wrong, so it is more like PZB in that it regulates a driver's adherence to the restriction.

Incidentally, BR and Railtrack did experiment with more German/Dutch inspired ATP systems on GWML and Chiltern before deciding on TPWS as the 'solution'. For those interested here is a nice long read about the Chiltern ATP system and it's long journey to obsolescence and replacement. https://www.railengineer.co.uk/chiltern-atp-obsolescence/

 

I didn't know you could block users!
Also it does seem to be true.
I use step 1 brake application on double yellows and continue it all the way to the red signal.
Doesn't work on locos that haven't got the three step brake though.

 

If you do go past a double yellow you will get a signal passed at danger (SPAD) US NTSB Stop Signal Overrun.
Here's a SPAD risk video about that

 

A few times I've been caught out by stopping at a station on a stop signal, loaded the passengers then set off before realising the signal is still at danger!
Also remember all the boring videos from driver training

 

For a basic TPWS video see below.

They do say that “and to provide last resort emergency braking at the point at where the signal is being passed at danger" in other words it's might not stop you just mitigate the how bad it could be.

 

Which route in the game and for me I had to use one of these videos on SEH for 2K58 service because of the 395 at your platform in Rochester Kent Railway station provided you leave Gillingham early and then stop at Chatham. That encounters a Double yellow to which you must use the DRA.

 

DRA should only be used at a red signal, not double yellow.

 

That said, I don't think these did anything with yellow signals. That aspect of German signalling predates PZB, which is merely enforcing the existing rules.

What? This is gibberish.

 

Doesn't the T&W metro use a version of PZB. I wonder how that works with the NR metals around Sunderland.

Edit... Found some Info on Wikipedia...

A version of Indusi is installed on the Tyne and Wear Metro network for train protection; its 1970s-built trains were largely based on German designs. On the Metro extension to Sunderland, Indusi has been installed on the Network Rail tracks, because it does not interfere with NR's TPWS signalling system.

 

For the bottom one US Railroading Terminology for a UK RAIB TSW SPAD. Knew the American terminology SSO Stop Signal Overrun since I have a collection of US Railroad Magazines which sometimes mention that.