Passenger Behavior In Tsw Needs To Be Addressed

As a person who has played TSW for a few years now, one thing that has annoyed me the most is passenger behavior. TSW 2 rush hour was supposed to make improvements in the behavior of passengers however the only thing that really improved was the increase of passengers at stations but even then, there are still issues.

Having played the new LIRR and as someone who has used the LIRR many times in real life, it is extremely annoying that often times when operating a service, my train will mostly be empty even during rush hour. Some stations such as St Albans, Locust Manor, Lynbrook, Centre Avenue, East Rockway and Oceanside have absolutely zero passengers even during peak times. When I arrive at Jamaica for example there are no passengers that are on the platfrom but when they do finally arrive on the platform, they don't get on.

Often times, passengers in TSW will just walk to the exit of a station despite the fact that no train was ahead of me at all. When I arrive into stations, passengers will arrive on the platform but will not board the train once I am stopped and have the doors opened.

Another issue is that passengers that do board a train will all just get off at the next stop which doesn't make any sense. I can be doing a Bakerloo line service from Elephant And Castle to Queens Park, but the passengers will all get off at Lambeth North Station and my train will be completely empty for the rest of the trip. I can be doing a service from Hicksville to Penn running express stoping at Jamaica only but all passengers would just get off at Jamaica making my train completely empty which doesn't make any sense.

There is also an issue where if I arrive to a terminal station such as Gospel Oak for instance, passengers don't get off the train. Also there is stlll the issue of passengers that are on a train that is in a yard or passengers getting on a train that is out of service and going into the yard like on the LIRR.

Some stations such as Island Park on the LIRR and Vicent Grade Acton on the Antelope Valley Line have way too many passengers spawning at a station. Surely the number of passengers spawning at a place should be more dynamic to reflect the surrounding area?

I just don't understand why after all this time, passenger behavior has not been sorted out. DTG focus on making passengers have phones, caps, bags and so on but what is the point of all of that if the behavior hasn't improved? When I play games like The Bus or Simrail for example passengers will get on and on and get off where appropriate and thus adding to the immersion.

I hope that DTG at some point will finally sort out the passenger behavior in this game. I enjoy playing TSW as it is quite a relaxing game to play but passenger behavior in this game has been neglected in my view for far too long.

I know that this game does have some issues that haven't been sorted for a long time and there will be those that believe that there are more important issues that should be sorted out before passengers which I fully understand, but I make this post in hopes that DTG will at some point, finally sort out the passenger behavior in this game as it does hurt immersion in what is otherwise a pretty decent game

 

Passengers in this game frankly don't act like passengers. I don't see the point in adding "Dovetail Fashion" to the clothes of passengers, having them have suitcases, phones or odd looking caps if they don't even get on the train or all get off at places that make no sense which ultimately makes the train empty.

This is something that should be sorted out at some point

 

TSW's passenger system, if you can even call it a system, is honestly just a visual addition to the environment and ambience, but nothing more. I'll elaborate further sometime later, but it's basically useless and does not add anything to the game whatsoever.

- Some stations have broken spawn points, where they try to spawn but immediately despawn
- Some stations have their passenger spawning points so far away that you'd have to wait 5 minutes until someone gets on the platform
- "Rush Hour" feature is basically just a second passenger density variable with a higher value that you can force enable for all routes (default set to auto meaning only enabled for "Rush Hour" routes I think)
- Spawning is static and is the same for every station
- Passenger loading/unloading is also defined by probability, load percentage or minimum loading time
- Broken passenger AI controller (which is responsible for navigation and so on) that often doesn't really know what to do, for example walking away just to turn around again and board the train, or being unable to board certain parts of the train, etc.

I was kinda able to make the spawning behaviour actually Rush Hour-like, where passengers fill the platform (unless it's a large platform, then they will go into some kind of zones and stay there) - but that's it.

 

Thank you for explaining the system in detail.

It's a shame that a game designed around the operation of trains has a passenger system that is severely flawed and just seems to be designed as nothing more to make the environment feel alive but not actually act like passengers. We keep getting routes that are busier and busier but with trains that are just mostly empty. It's really annoying and ruins the immersion.

 

On PS5 the passengers are especially terrible. They crash into each other on the platforms, walk with jerky unrealistic movements, “tread water” in midair when exiting trains and generally don’t behave like real people. It’s jarring and immersion breaking.

 

When I played the Goblin Line a few days ago, there were many instances of passengers shooting up into the air like missles and one time, I hit a passenger that fell onto the tracks.

 

Passengers behaviour is a thing but difficult to manage i believe. Matt has mentioned about this problem way ago and its a thing that needs a lot of manual work. Passengers are in a development state at the moment and they improve this for sure but it will a problem for ever or they have to choose to create a whole new behaviour system but i have no clue of this is limited due to the engine.

 

I've had this issue on that route as well. I've had passengers walk through the 710 and fall onto the tracks a few times before

 

I have this engine.ini setup that sort of works, as long as your service don't run up to 125mph and the station spawn point isn't that far away. The actual effect depends on the route configuration, and should work pretty well even on pre rush hour routes (like ECW). Also, the density shouldn't be raised more, as passengers already have hard time navigating the station.

ts2.platform.MaxStationPassengerSpawnDistance=200000
ts2.platform.MaxPlatformPassengerSpawnDistance=150000
ts2.platform.MaxSpawnRequirement=50
ts2.passenger.DensityScale=2.0
ts2.passenger.DensityScaleNew=4.0
ts2.passenger.AdjacentStationSearchDistance=80000

 

They need to sort out the pathing of AI, add more idle animations for both sitting and standing passengers. But my biggest pet peeve is trying to navigate around a busy narrow platform or coach and the passengers can push me but I can't push them. Rush Hour made that worse but it was always a problem I was facing on the original LIRR

 

I don't play TSW on PC so I can't use these settings unfortunately. But at least pc players can tweak the passenger density although you really shouldn't have to.

 

That could be also a train issue it self... Im not 100% Sure but there could be something wrong with the alignment where the doors are and the reactions of the AI... So if the cant find a proper route they fly above due to missing tasks.... But thats a assuming view not the 100% reality.

What i have noticed on the Semmering that the stations are bizar overloaded with passengers on stations like Küb and other stations where in reality the most time of the day nobody appears...

 

I will give that a try later today/tommorow

 

Your assumption does sound like that could be the issue to be fair.

TSW perhaps could benefit have some form of dynamic passenger system where passengers would spawn based on how busy a station is in real life. So a station like L.A union would have more passengers than Vincent Grade Acton for example due to L.A union having more daily passengers

Or perhaps there can be a setting like in The Bus which would allow the player to adjust the number of passengers that would spawn at a stop.

 

As a side note, this don't work well on Bakerloo. For some reason the AI trains on this route is completely empty, so combined with short station arrival interval when your train arrive it will try to supply the station capacity with all its passengers.

Also, this don't resolve the issue where passengers refuse to get off at terminus or idling on the platform; For some reason I suspect using the horn will sometimes make the passengers realize they should be boarding, as long as you haven't close the doors by accident.

 

One thing to add to this topic:

NPCs not at all spawning on platforms, not even mentioning the non existance of passengers boarding into a train is a huge issue/bug in scenarios created in Scenario Planner.

Since Scenario Planner has become a core functionality and Scenario Planner 2.0 even was announced as selling point for TSW4, it's not acceptable that we literally can't use it for an immersive custom created passenger scenario and you use your passenger train like a freight service stopping at stations with the player needing to pretend the NPCs and therefore pretend it to be a passenger service.

But DTG still keeps ignoring this issue and I would dare to say this isn't even a thing finally fixed/realized in the next TSW iteration coming this September.

 

Yes, I agree 100% But you also forgot to mention the passengers who are buried in the platform with only their head sticking up. On the GWE route the passengers waterfall from the overhead bridge, sometimes their feet are sticking below the bridge as they cross, another one is where the passengers enter the train on the platform side and then exit the train trackside and then fall down and disappear? I had one passenger walk in front of my train as I was pulling out of a station on the GWE, I mention this as a technical issue, (if you are thinking of doing this in real life, please seek help) Northen Trans Pennine you are driving around with an empty train 90% of the time, stations don't have passengers, main stations have very little passengers. Another annoying thing is when you finish a service for the night, turn the lights off, pull into the sidings to find passengers still in the trains, happens on the Brighton line, Bakerloo, GWE and more probably, it kind ruins the whole thing. Another thing is how passengers kinda hobble down the stairs, they all have dodgy knees, it's not game breaker, but once you see it you can't unsee it, sorry for anybody who hasn't noticed before, it is kinda funny to watch.

 

OMG....it is either rubber band seat belts or they are all doing Michael Jackson moon walking impressions. Not TSW finest moment for sure.

 

I haven't played GWE in a while and when I do, I play with the HST so I wasn't aware of that issue in the route. I am also aware of NTP not having passengers. I should've mentioned that. It's the same issue on LIRR in the stations that I pointed out having no passengers at all.

I am aware however of how passengers walk up/down stairs. It's quite funny to be honest

 

And this is another reason why passengers need to be sorted out

 

Yeah, I recently done all the timetables and scenarios in GWE, some of the stations are not used by the HST, so you wouldn't see, I think it is Hayes and Harlington? And that is where they fall through the floor of the over head bridge, walking into the train and going out the other door onto the track is a class 166 problem, didn't see it happen on the HST that I can recall. HST has the windscreen problem, I put it in NTP and the reflections of the dashboard shine onto the windscreen and it fickers and dance around, another issue.

 

[citation needed]

 

The one thing that I want the most is to be able to walk through passengers. Right now on a busy platform it's very difficult to budge through them and sometimes they even push you around. It's really annoying.

 

Yeah, Dovetail need to install a punch or kick button, get rewards for beating up the passengers. Yeah, it is annoying, especially if you are running out of your train to get collectables and dive back in the train to try to still be on time.

 

They’re like that on every platform

 

God forbid you close the doors 1 second before the circle is fully finished, opening the doors again will eject half of London from the train! This game has A LOT to learn from Tram Sim, and that game is far from perfect...

 

Ideally what is needed is a simplified AI routine for each passenger, based around a particular train and set of stops. So, for example, Passenger A is supposed to catch the 5:15 from London to Brighton.* S/he will spawn at Victoria between 5:00 and 5:10 (randomized), walk to the departure platform, wait for the train, and board when doors open. Pass. A will then get off at Brighton and walk to the exit. With bigger stations, some passengers can randomly spawn earlier than necessary, and hang around the concourse and shops until it's time to proceed to the platform.

Now, doing that for every possible passenger on the route will crush the CPU; we don't do that. Instead, passengers spawn whenever the player comes within X tiles or Y distance of the passenger's location, but the AI info will be created at spawning. Check out what GTA V does with random NPCs (in a game built for XBox 360 and PS3)

*Any Who fans out there?

 

When I made this thread, I did it with the mindset that this may not be addressed. I may be new here, but I am aware of DTG's reputation. Steam for example was supposed to get improvements but that never happened.

I made this thread to bring attention to a longstanding issue in tsw that I believe has been ignored. Some may not agree, but I believe that a sim built around the operation of picking up and dropping off passengers should have a proper passenger system. I sometimes ride as a passenger and it is quite jarring hoping on a train during peak times to pull into Penn Station for instance with no passengers.

We have gotten routes that are busy which is a good thing but railways that are busy in real life are busy due to high passenger demand. These trains can get packed with passengers heading from Long Island into the NYC terminals of Penn Station and Atlantic Terminal Brooklyn for example. In TSW, it feels like we are operating trains during COVID.

I also recognize that there may be other important issues that need addressing. But I still believe that in making this thread and having this discussion, we can let DTG know that this is an issue that should be addressed.

 

I'm fairly sure GTA V doesn't simulate NPCs to anywhere near that level of detail. TSW can almost certainly get away with fudging it a lot more, I think what's really needed is measures to adjust the number of people boarding and getting off per station.

 

Acc to Rockstar, each NPC in GTA V has its own "life" moving from place to place according to a daily schedule

 

NPCs in GTA walkaround, they have dialogue with you and others. You bumb into them they say something or hit you, you point or fire a gun they go off screaming. What exactly do the NPCs do in TSW bar not get on trains and get in the way?

 

I could not agree more. The passengers are by far the absolute worst part of this sim and I only see it getting marginally (if at all) better. It’s been a problem that’s plagued TSW for years and will continue for years to come. IMHO, if there were any major flaws with the “system” that weren’t already addressed after 4 iterations of the game… I’d say it’s safe to assume that they’d never be fixed.

 

I think the reason why NTP doesn't have any passengers is because of a update that broke the passenger system on that route. It's been like that for a long time

 

Which is a shame, because NTP got special early-80s people instead of the default models

 

What a disappointment. You will likely run a full service without seeing a single person. Or if you do happen to see one they won’t even think about boarding your train. Completely ruins the driving experience for me.

Like you said, it’s been that way for a loooong time. I wonder if it’ll ever get better…

 

I remember those models. They were really nice. I do play the route from time to time but the lack of passengers is one of the reasons why I don’t play the route more often

 

Yes, I remember this issue from a couple of months ago when I was playing on Tharanter rampe. I did close down the DMU on a siding after a service and a group of people thought it was the sleeper train. It annoyed me.

 

A tsw update making a feature not work in the game. That doesn't sound suprising

 

Please provide a source. That goes against everything I've heard and seen about GTA V.

I'm not disputing that GTA V's NPCs are more advanced than TSW's.

NTP has passengers - it's broken on some stations, not all of them.

 

Whenever I play the route, I don't see any passengers in any station. Maybe I'm not looking hard enough or something

 

Did some investigation on BKL:

• The passengers spawned with the train are invisible - you'll see nothing but will find all seats non-sittable. This issue will disappear after the train stops at its second stop. This issue will also cause passengers on the second stop to refuse boarding, and also ejects passengers at the first.
• Carriage 1, 4 and 7 (on Harrow & W'Stone bound) never have visible passengers; You can see them boarding & leaving or see that you can't sit on some of the seats, but not visibly on the train. Other carriages will behave better, once the invisible passengers get off.
• Standing passengers suffer the same issue as the player, as they can sometimes be thrown off the moving train
• Passenger LOD distance is horrible, maybe someone should make it larger
• If a passenger don't get on the train first try, they'll idle there forever
• Making the line full of people is possible, with the following parameters. This config allows 800+ AI being simulated so might be CPU bound. Not an issue for GPUs as it don't deal with render distance. Should be set on top of the global edit below as route-only dynamic ini. Note that if the third one is 0 only the next stop of the train is populated.

ts2.passenger.DensityScale=4​

ts2.passenger.DensityScaleNew=8
ts2.passengers.ForceStationSpawningOverride=1
​

• I've also updated my global ini edit to allow passengers to be simulated long before your train arrive:

ts2.platform.MaxStationPassengerSpawnDistance=200000
ts2.platform.MaxPlatformPassengerSpawnDistance=150000
ts2.platform.MaxSpawnRequirement=50
ts2.passenger.DensityScale=2.0
ts2.passenger.DensityScaleNew=4.0
ts2.passenger.AdjacentStationSearchDistance=200000
ts2.passengers.Navigation.MaxCameraDistance=10000000​

 

You're totally right, there are also times where a supposed dead station still has quite a lot of passengers and it really annoys me how static they are inside the trains. They all sit the same way (atleast on anything outside goblin) and they never stand when its busy (BKL is an exception but its still way too static) Would love if there were more dioramas and life inside the train. The way passengers are in the game right now it would be better if they werent even there lol. Also did a scenario on BRO that had an extra train for the heavy crowds and the entire time my train was completely empty making the scenario poinless

 

More dioramas would be cool but at the same time, I don't see the point if the behavior of passengers is just going to be the same. I do agree that trains that do have passengers make it feel lifeless when riding as a passenger. They just move their heads left and right.

Having passengers listen to music while on the train or on their phones or having the odd conversation would not make the train feel lifeless when riding as a passenger

 

I think passengers have improved a lot since TSW2 Rush hour. Sure they still are not perfect but the improvements in TSW4 are getting them slowly on the right track.

 

I think they have improved the look of the passengers and added some nice features to the passengers. But certainly not having them boarding trains at a station for example and some of the other odd behaviour they are exhibiting lately can be quite immersion breaking.

 

True, they look better but the poses still need a lot of work. I noticed this on LIRR when doing the Golf scenario. I immediately noticed some passengers that stood out because they seemed so relaxed. They were leaning instead of standing. At close inspection I noticed they were golfer dioramas that were part of the scenario

 

Sometimes it happens that passengers who get off the train start to pile up in front of the train doors and don't go anywhere.

 

They don't like the cut of the platform, it is scary lol

 

Sadly I see passengers walking into the tracks again with LIRR 2.0 and Salzburg Rosenheim :-\