Paying Full Price And Not Getting Full Route Abilities

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by jimnicebutdimm, Oct 2, 2021.

  1. docsnyder1911

    docsnyder1911 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah in that time we could drive so much trains in TSW2. Playing SEH with playing the Javelin would be the right alternative in the last 4 hours for all of us.
     
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  2. Gilly

    Gilly Well-Known Member

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    I guessed I picked a bad week to give up heroin...seems like a week anyway... probably 10minutes ago!!
    Time to do a 70's reference and suggest we do a 'Why don't You' and go and do something less boring instead.
     
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  3. DTG JD

    DTG JD Staff Member

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    Commented on another thread - you're welcome to express opinions, but when threads descend to slanging matches we will lock threads.

    This is a hard decision to make - because we want players to enjoy as much of the content as possible. However our priority is enjoyment of the core routes and locos on previous generation consoles. Adding layers will jeopardise that, sadly. We will be investigating what we can do, but assume that layers will not be present in the London Commuter for PS4 and Xbox One.
     
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  4. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how I’m being selfish. I have a last gen console (Xbox 1X rather than PS4 bit the point is the same). I’m Ok with what is being provided given the explanation. I would rather have the route as provided which performs well as opposed to having the layers foisted upon me which would badly hit performance.

    The choice, like it or not, is having the route available to me without the layers or not having the route at all. I choose the former.
     
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  5. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    So what you are saying is that PC users, PS5 & Xbox X should get an inferior product because a PS4 and Xbox1 cant handle the same as the rest can and its "not fair" that an inferior and frankly obsolete machine shouldnt have a few less services in?

    Tell you what when you have completed every timetabled service available on Brighton Commuter for PS4 at Gold Level standard come back and we'll have a whiparound to try and buy you a PS5 :D
     
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  6. OnlyMe1909

    OnlyMe1909 Well-Known Member

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    I feel very strongly about this issue, but so far didn’t say much. In the live stream I made a remark in chat that we should be entitled to the same content as everyone else as we’re paying the same price and DTG should treat ALL customers the same. That off course immediately woke up the Uber-race pc owners who got on my case. That spoiled the whole stream for me, I didn’t enjoy it one bit, I wish I kept my mouth shut.

    But I feel I should have my say, so here’s my 2 cents on this: Everyone is entitled to the same content. I know gen8 consoles are incapable of having all layers. I get that. DTG said they keep looking into memory optimization so we can have the extra layers as well. I’d like to tell them: Stop that! You’re never gonna get there. Stop wasting time and money on that. The hardware simply can’t handle all layers…

    … in one timetable. And therein lies the solution (IMO), but nobody seems to talk about it. Just give us the missing layers in the form of an additional timetable. We know that’s possible, we’ve seen it on GWR and RT. I know it’s not the ideal solution, as traffic will be reduced because not all trains will be in the same timetable. But as our machines can’t handle it all in one, I would be more than happy to have all content available in this way. I don’t understand why DTG doesn’t implement this.
     
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  7. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    I completely agree as a ps4 customer
     
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  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Having just the additional layers, which could just be one layer in subsequent routes, as a separate timetable isn’t a workable standard solution. It could work for this route but I’m not sure that’s what most people would accept and this is an issue that is going to come up again in the future. It is something for them to consider though.

    Matt has talked about a similar solution on streams. Having the ability to turn on layers individually, and that could go for the main content as well as the imported layers, does seem like a good workaround but I guess that it isn’t a solution that is actually workable. It could be as simple as introducing a tick box system for the player but have implications for developing and testing the permutations that a player could choose and if the facility is there to switch on all the layers at once, and DTG know that could cause a crash, then it probably wouldn’t get past the console manufacturers QA for release. Having separate timetables does avoid those problems. It would release all the drivable services for the player but it wouldn’t ever give the same experience as you say.
     
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  9. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I think adding the option to activate layers is the best solution if they can't optimise the game for last gen. I'm new to the game so I'm not so bothered there are no layers on last gen but I can see how people who have invested a lot of money in DLC now feel let down. Adding the layers but with a clear warning this might lead to problems. In that way more players will start blaming their hardware instead of DTG.

    Next gen consoles are hard to find at the moment so even the simple solution of upgrade your hardware is not a valid suggestion.
     
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  10. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Most hardware is outdated by the time it's released. Just because the next generation of whatever you're using isn't out yet doesn't mean that there isn't new RAM, CPU, GPU etc components out there (or in beta). It's a fact of all kinds of computing

    You also forgot to add in crypto mining...

    The problem isn't "more trains", it's more different kinds of (memory and CPU intensive) trains. If DTG could add in even one more type of train they would but for whatever reason they can't, even as static consists. I don't know WHY they can't without the older machines falling over but it makes sense, also if they did make a specific timetable just with 375, 166, 66 and 09 that would leave a whole lot of gaps that would just be weird
     
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Their agreements with sony and microsoft would prohibit them from knowingly putting in an option that would break someone's machine, even if it's the choice of the user whether to activate it or not.
    There's a difference between a bug which isn't anticipated and an option which will knowingly mess it up
     
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  12. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Maybe DTG needs to look at Football Manager and see how they deal with layers.

    At the start of the game the user selects all the layers (in FM's case soccer leagues) and before they confirm the game works out how stable it will be with those settings and the speed at which it will run and then lets the player make in an informed decision.

    This feaute would actually also benefit highend PC users as it would allow DTG to create ever more complex timetables with additional services/motive power and not have to worry about ensuring the game ran on all systems. I approve
     
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  13. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    You are probably right, but I'm not talking about making the game crash. Games on consoles have options to make the game run smoother.
    Let PS4 Pro users take advantage over the extra power they have over the base PS4 at this moment.
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The amount of RAM on many PCs negates the issue as far as crashing, and ends up reducing FPS rather than crashing the whole computer.

    Absolutely, if there's a way to allow PS4 pro to have better play than PS4 standard then DTG should do that. Don't know if UE4 can determine the difference in those consoles (and you do end up being accused of starting a PS4P master race, but that's by the by)
     
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  15. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    So would that mean original PS4 plebs at the bottom of the technology heap get their dlc’s even cheaper than both PS5 and PS4 pro players?

    Nah thought not so not by the by at all. We would still get charged exactly the same so everyone who is lucky enough to be further up the technology heap get new dlc’s capable of superior content and performance indirectly funded by the real disadvantaged who can’t currently afford to just keep upgrading every two years or whatever because of other more important life commitments.

    The only fair solution if your going to support every platform both older and newer generation is to make a compromise on performance and content that’s fair for everyone otherwise just concentrate on the newer generation and stop supporting older generation altogether and risk losing some of the customer PlayStation pleb base like me who would be forced to take our money elsewhere and possibly never return because we got into something else.

    That won’t happen either.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  16. Gilly

    Gilly Well-Known Member

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    This whole debate revolves around this. Sadly it's the infinity+1 paradox.
    50 odd years ago NASA went to the moon using less processing power than I hold in my hand typing this.
    Would they today? Because they obviously can! But ultimately it'd likely be more expensive, way heavier, and way way slower. Just because they can, doesn't mean they should.
    And you have to accept a lifecycle on any product nowadays or you're only a fool to yourself. Long gone are the days when things would see you out!
     
  17. elarthur

    elarthur Well-Known Member

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    A separate timetable may well be the way to go.
     
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  18. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Agreed, especially if paid dlc ends up being on the route
     
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  19. elarthur

    elarthur Well-Known Member

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    For me personally, I will take whatever DTG can offer for this route as it stands at this time on ps4. I love UK trains and will enjoy a new route alongside 1 new and 1 reworked class of train. I only hope that Sony can resolve the issue with availability of ps5 consoles and once done can reduce the price as previous generations in time. At least this way I can look forward to a future with full content availability. What we have been offered is a superb effort which was likely always going to exceed ps4 capabilities owing to how busy this route is. Well done DTG in spite of my obvious disappointment.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  20. sergio volodstok

    sergio volodstok Active Member

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    That's quite ironic, as I just upgraded from PS3 to PS4 earlier this year. And other than TSW, I have really no use for a PS5 as most of the other games aren't interesting, to me. Also I can't see buying a PS5 just for the sole purpose of playing TSW.. when I can do that on the console I have now.. :|
     
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  21. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    The issue is that PS5's are not available for purchase for most people. If PS5's were easy to get the discussion would be easily closed. 'Get a PS5" is not a working solution as it can still take a year before everyone will be able to get one. PS4 pro's have been available so if you didn't upgrade that is your choice.

    If you are still on base PS4 with no intention of upgrading to PS5 it would be wiser not to buy DLC anymore
     
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  22. Gilly

    Gilly Well-Known Member

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    Good point actually. I've kept and play all my various systems from early 80's for the system specific titles that offer something unique eg ZX spectrum Southern Belle, Turbo Esprit. SNES FIFA where englands sub goaly was actually the worlds best midfielder (and could score every shot from half way line) or PS1 G-police
     
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  23. elarthur

    elarthur Well-Known Member

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    Buying the DLCs for ps4, provided that they work, is a perfectly reasonable idea because you should be entitled to upgrade them for free whenever you upgrade to ps5 as long as you log into your PlayStation account. The problem for most players is simply that ps5 has been launched at just about the worst possible time and is nowhere near as accessible as it should be with no stock of consoles to the most part. Sony needs to up their game, excuse the pun, and flood the market as quickly as possible if ps5 is ever to be a winner.
     
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  24. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    In July it had already passed 10 million units sold, which was much more than the PS4 had sold within the same timeframe of its release.

    The issue is that more people want a console now than they did when the PS4 released.
     
  25. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    What you're saying doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Are you honestly telling me that if the three options available are:

    1) DTG sell a single DLC on all platforms, but switch off a few of the extra services on 8 year old consoles which can't handle them, but give everyone immediate access to the full package of layers when they inevitably upgrade.

    2) DTG go to the trouble of splitting up every DLC into distinct PS4/PS5 versions for the sake of maybe shaving a couple of quid off the price of the PS4 version meaning a whole extra level of complexity to the licensing of content and make it so that when people switch from PS4 to PS5, even though they'll soon be able to carry across their progress and would get the PS5 version of the game for free, they'd have to pay again to upgrade each of their limited DLC to the full PS5 version.

    3) DTG limit to quality of their new DLC to something that will run on old tech regardless of the potential for new layers with current-gen consoles until the entire player base has upgraded to PS5 and only then think about actually using the available power (meanwhile, other options may come out which make proper use of the new hardware and grab a portion of the market).

    You'd genuinely expect them to choose anything other than option 1? You're fooling yourself if that's the case.

    And you think it's a better solution to just stop supporting PS4 entirely, rather than allowing people to continue building their library of routes (with the layers which work well and provide literally thousands of services for them to play) ahead of potentially upgrading to a latest gen console in the future? It's not.

    I get that you're feeling hard done by, but have a proper think through of the options you're suggesting. And start saving... :)

    If you really want a PS5, they're not impossible to find. I started following a stock checker website on Twitter. They announced that Game were going to have a drop in the morning so I logged in, chose a bundle that seemed like it would be less popular than the standalone console (bundled with a PS Plus extension and some store credit - which I'd have bought anyway), as soon as the drop went live, I added it to my basket, checked out and it arrived two days later. That was only the second time I'd actually tried to get one having missed out a couple of weeks earlier. The drops are getting more and more regular so you just have to be ready when they land.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  26. Gilly

    Gilly Well-Known Member

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    It's why I'm likely to consider looking for one around April time 2022. We got Christmas coming up so no chance then, then January and February will be those who didn't at Christmas, March to settle stock down. So I reckon on April being realistic at the earliest personally.
     
  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    It's not luck, it's buying newer kit. Maybe finding the new hardware is the lucky part
    Anyway, you and I have had posts shut down for this same conversation
     
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  28. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I followed trackers on Twitter and gave up. I don't want a bundle. I just want a PS5 digital edition at normal price. I'm on waiting lists from several shops, none of them had enough stock until now. I'm not gonna be persuaded in buying things I don't need like bundles. You know how ridiculous it sounds convincing people to pay more just for the sake of some layers not working? If the game had a descent frame rate on PC and PS5 it would sound more appealing but paying more for a PS5 to have the same lousy frame rate but have extra layers? Nope! When the games arrive that need a PS5 I'll change my tune but TSW2 is not a PS5 seller. It doesn't work perfect on PS5 and on PC.
     
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  29. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. That's why I chose one that was bundled with £50 PSN credit - I've already spent more than that anyway, so it wasn't like I'd been spoofed into buying a game I didn't want or a crappy cap. There are standalone consoles available, but those are the ones that 90% of people are going to be adding to their cart, so if you do want one, you need to play the odds a bit.

    Not sure who you've been talking to, but performance on PS5 is a night and day improvement even from PS4 Pro. You've obviously made up your mind and worked out your reasons, though, so I'll leave it there.
     
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  30. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The frame rate on PS5 is far superior to PS4…

    Even in places it isn’t 60fps it’s still way above what PS4 can hit.
     
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  31. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Option 4 ….Keep things as they are but you pay a price that reflects the performance of the dlc you receive which is capable of what your generation of PlayStation can deliver. If you upgrade to a PS5 sometime in the future then the PS store recognises which version of PlayStation your original purchase was made on and makes you pay the difference up to the £25 the PS5 version costs before you can re download the PS5 version of a previously purchased dlc onto a PS5.

    I don’t feel hard done by still having an original PS4 it still currently serves my needs tbh and I can live without the extra layers on RH BML if I really have to because I know my PS4 is getting old now so long as I’m not paying the same price as those on PS5 who are currently getting more content and a better experience. This option allows those who are perfectly happy with their older generation consoles to continue with them if they so desire without feeling ripped off. Yes I can pay £25 now and get the benefits when I get the free dlc when I get a PS5 but not everyone wants a PS5 whether it’s for reasons of availability, cost, waiting another year or two for a better version even waiting for a PS6! actual need, or whatever other reason. Currently it feels like paying £25 for a dlc is like I’m being indirectly forced to get a PS5 when they become more available whether I actually want one or not.

    Why should I currently pay exactly the same price for a dlc as others who are able to buy and use the superior features?

    Nothing to do with feeling hard done by or being jealous but everything to do with paying a price that reflects what I can currently get and actually use at the moment.

    I didn’t cause this problem DTG did by making the decision for their own obvious reasons to support both older and newer generation consoles.
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
  32. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    Really!

    I still enjoy and I’m generally content playing TSW2 on my PS4 even if what I get is inferior to what PS5 players get not to mention I’ve spent quite a bit of money on the game. I’ve never felt the justification to get a PS4 pro. I don’t have a 4K telly for a start just an HD 3D plasma which I’m perfectly happy with. I find that comment pretty selfish and elitist tbh. Keep up with the Joneses or but out! Thanks a lot!

    Again I say I didn’t cause the problem DTG did by deciding to support older and newer generation consoles. If the time comes when they do! decide to stop supporting the original PS4? then and only then I will have a decision to make which is buy a PS5 and a fancy pants 4K or whatever they are now tv or but out which will no doubt make people like you happy by the sounds of it.

    Btw I’ve never said I won’t ever get a PS5 just not at the moment. What amuses me is not that long ago someone who isn’t my biggest fan started a thread that it was time DTG prioritised the PS5 and he was jumped on by quite a few members here. Why? Because not many of us had PS5’s at the time, now a few more of this community have them it’s the likes of me that get the lashing. Oh! how fickle people are when it suits them.

    Edit.., I’ve said all I want to say on this and besides I don’t want to get totally unjustly suspended again for a week. :(
     
    Last edited: Oct 4, 2021
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  33. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    That I can believe. But it still doesn't have a stable framerate on PC and PS5. When I would buy a PS5 specifically for TSW2 I would expect stable framerate all over. As this is not the case you know there is a problem with optimising the game. How much there is to gain with optimisation I can't tell you but it means even the PS4 can get a better TSW2 than there is now.
     
  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The refresh rate may not be astronomical, but the graphics quality is considerably better, you get more layers, more passengers, more future proof... FPS isn't the be all and end all
     
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  35. antwerpcentral

    antwerpcentral Well-Known Member

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    I'm satisfied with the graphics. I'm on PS4 Pro which has very descent graphics. So yes FPS is the most important thing to me on a Train sim. When PS5's come available I will get one. But I'm really not in hurry for TSW2 on PS5 as it clearly not fixes the issues I'm having on PS4 pro. Maybe by the time PS5 get's here FPS will be fixed.
     
  36. Shawn Dalla-vecchia

    Shawn Dalla-vecchia Member

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    Yeah, I'm abit pissed off that I paid $45AUD for a route that's meant to have 5 or so trains but only have the two
     
  37. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    What you're asking for is option 2. Just because you don't understand or are unwilling to think through the complexities of what you're asking for, it doesn't make it simple. And even if they were going to charge you less, what's the real value difference in terms of the work it's taken to build the whole route and two new trains vs adding in the layer of existing stuff you can't use? 50p maybe? Less? Hardly seems worth the effort.
     
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  38. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    You are getting the same content. As and when you switch to next generation, you’ll get the next generation content at no additional cost. Layers are bonus items not part of the main route.
     
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  39. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    The cheaper purchase price a PS4 player should be paying for a dlc is to / should reflect the reduced value of enjoyment when compared to what a PS5 player is able to experience rather than what it costs to add layers in money terms.

    Anyway at the end of the day I guess 3rd class players still using an original PS4 and 2nd class players still using a PS4 pro who want something like RH BML especially as an individual purchase without feeling ripped off will just have to wait until something like RH BML goes down to an acceptable price in a sale. I suppose waiting and watching for however long befits our lowly status ;)
     
  40. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    And what do you think that price would be? What's a fair discount on a product with miles and miles of spectacular new scenery (which you still get), two new trains (which you still get) and a huge, 1,200-service timetable (which you're never going to finish), against being able to see/drive a train you already have on a select few services? And don't forget to offset all the extra work DTG would need to do to split the DLC in order to give you that discount (against a platform/DLC system which has already proven hard to work with), as per the original, impractical, option 2. Or, yeah, like you say: Wait for a sale...
     
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  41. shhweeet#4292

    shhweeet#4292 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if you’d be so glib with that last comment if you didn’t have a PS5? Or maybe not in a monetary position to buy one. You’ve got a lot of life’s hard lessons to learn in future I suspect. I also wonder if they did reduce the price of a dlc for PS4 players how many players would be happy to just stay on PS4 whether they have a PS5 or not?
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I'm a realist, so I realise that DTG have to put in the work to make the route, stations, two new locos, the main timetable and testing etc etc so getting that for a fair price is one thing. That others get more timetabled trains would make me think "maybe I should upgrade my machine" rather than "why aren't DTG paying me when it's fairly obvious my inferior machine isn't up to date and cannot handle what software puts out these days?"

    This is reliant on the only game they play being TSW2. I'm fairly sure people would get other games as well and enjoy the added benefits of 4K, 60fps etc etc that they wouldn't get on a PS4
     
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  43. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, thanks for that, pops. :D

    The PS5 experience is a significant improvement on even the PS4 Pro version regardless of the Rush Hour improvements or new routes. It's the future of the game and if you want the latest and greatest content, you need the latest machine. As ARuscoe says, you're coming at this from the wrong angle - the console game has always been about pushing boundaries so those who have the newest machines will always get the perks that come with the power.

    The cost of the route is £24.99 for the two Electrostars. The additional layers are FREE to owners of the new consoles. If you don't have a new console (or the means or inclination to get one), you don't have to pay for the last bit. ;)
     
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  44. madda253

    madda253 Member

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    Layers have always been a free bonus to a new expansion, never guaranteed. The only things promised with the new route are the 2 electrostars, passenger density and service density (over a thousand services).
     
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  45. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Be careful with all that logic, you might offend others.
     
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  46. Skyz2020

    Skyz2020 Well-Known Member

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    Easy everyone... easy ..shhweet has made a good point and CK95 and factor have responded. I am more with shhweet as a last gen user but also understand the ps5 user base pointing out their money their choice to get layers.

    Next interesting event... the 313... 313 will determine DTG direction of travel, if they lock it to ecw only for last gen but include it as a layer for next gen on bml, I fear my trusty ps4 is heading to ebay in next 12 months... which is a shame as I would like DTG to support it beyond april 2022 but alas I think the 313 holds the key to how DTG truly feel about last gen

    (P.s or indeed a 700 dlc would give the same answers)
     
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  47. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You say beyond... how far beyond?
     
  48. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I will just say, I once bought Gothic 3 when it came out. Could not play it, would always crash shortly after loading. Turned out I had too less ram to run it, so I bought new ram. Turned out they did not fit on my Mainboard, so I had to get a new one as well. The game was playable after that, but only on low with stuttering. So I upgraded my graphics card as well. That was alot of money for a youngster like me back then.

    What I want to say with this is that once in a while you will have to upgrade your tech if you want to get the full access to newer games and the likes. Otherwise you will have to live with the fact that you might not be able to fully enjoy something to its fullest.
    And piranha bytes did not offer a discount for low-end machines as far as I know. But I could turn up all my settings once I have upgraded my machine.
     
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  49. Gilly

    Gilly Well-Known Member

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    Personally, at least until PS5 supply is equivalent to demand. Next April is likely when I'm planning a PS5, I can afford one now but as hen's teeth are more common, I'm on a hiding to nowhere currently. Plus in all honesty there's no software currently that I fancy!
     
  50. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I reckon you have at least until the next yearly release, DTG will most likely repackage and rebrand as ‘TSW 3’ when they decide to separate from Gen 8.

    Obviously rampant speculation on my part though, but then again that does fit in with the theme of this thread.
     
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