Petition For An Apology From Dtg As Well As A Pledge For More Transparency In The Future

So, regarding the whole thing with TSW4.
I would like to start by saying, I understand what's done is done, it's too late for DTG to take things back at this point. But it's not too late to apologize and take accountability for recent events.


The problem

With the recent announcement of TSW4, DTG has driven a wedge between the community, as well as the relationship a lot of us may have with DTG.

First I will acknowledge that in terms of raw value, it is an absolutely amazing deal!
3 routes for the price of 1 including a (sort of) new country? And for an additional price of 1 loco you get 2 loco's as well as a remaster of a fanfavorite?
That's an amazing deal, truly!
Had this been announced as just a route + optional loco bundle the forums here would've sung nothing but high praise, including me!
(On a personal note, I am not quite sure what "4 more TSW compatible routes" means exactly for Special Edition, but I'd be happy to be educated on that by someone that knows.)

The problem is that if you're not interested in the specific content that comes with TSW4, the core driving experience is at best marginally improved, yet you still have to shell out a full route price for content you didn't ask for all in order to retain support for a game that's already quite expensive in the first place.

Don't get me wrong, I and many others here would gladly pay for content we like and want. No one here is asking for handouts. But now, if you see something in the future you'd want and don't mind paying for, you're gonna have to buy at least a route pack you don't care about for the price of a full route, before you can PAY AGAIN for the content you actually did want.

TSW3 is not even 1 year old yet, but support is already being dropped while significant bugs are still present in the game, and its successor is barely even better in the first place.

To justify a complete new release of a game, I would expect at the very least a radically different and new core gaming experience.
An example to what I mean with that, look at what X-plane12 is to X-plane-11.
They're clearly iterations of the same game, but the new one radically improved on its predecessor. And it even has backwards compatibility to a lot of the previous one's planes still.

Nothing from what we've seen and heard on TSW4 has given any impression that this is even nearly the case aside from marginal core upgrades.
If it was, I would gladly pay for that as well. But it just isn't.

The editor and free roam are both amazing things to finally make their way to TSW of course, but again, the editor is a utility not a lot of us will use, and free roam, while great for a lot of people, including me, definitely is not nearly big enough to justify a new TSW release.

Basic rule of thumb: If you can imagine the upgrade as just an update, even if it's a relatively large one, than it should just be an update and nothing more.

Is the core gaming experience, in this case driving experience, not radically different? Than it's not worth a new release over.


What I want from DTG

Frankly, as someone who has a deep love for Train Sim World, DTG and for the community (and obviously for trains), I'm feeling hurt by DTG's lack of transparency and their seeming lack of faith in the community as well as in their own product.

Again, I understand that what's done is done and it's now too late to take things back, but that doesn't mean that DTG can't still take steps to take accountability.

What I want from DTG is very simple:

At a minimum:

• I want DTG to publically address the grievances they have caused and clearly show they understand what has the causes are, and then own up to it and apologize to the community. No justifications.
• I want DTG to vow more transparency to their community, and hold themselves more accountable going forward.

Optional but highly preferred:

• I want DTG to pledge to at least stick by TSW4 for a significant amount of time and not start development on TSW5 before a radical new core driving experience can be guaranteed by doing so, as well as to not leave TSW4 behind before significant issues have been fixed.
• If DTG does not comply with that last one, I would at least demand for the company to be open and transparent on their intentions to the community well in advance, preferably before development on TSW5 has even begun, assuming it doesn't comply with the standards as layed out for a new game.
  Some surprises are fun. This one simply wasn't, no matter how much you try and turn it around and this measure would mitigate a lot of disappointment.

Conclusion

This course of action has left me feeling bitter and left behind by DTG, and by the sounds going around on the forums, I can definitely state I am not merely talking about myself. And at the very least, I want these grievances to be acknowledged and understood by DTG.
This is not how you treat your amazing community and such an amazing game like TSW.

I hope I've made my feelings flear, and people including DTG understand where they're coming from.

Much love
-me

 

A little unrelated but worth saying. I think there’s a disparity between what the devs want and what the people upstairs want. I genuinely feel like the dev want tsw to be the best it can be but they aren’t give the proper opportunity to, a lot of the features that are coming with 4 are actually really good, but it would be even better if they weren't lock behind a £40 pay wall. Upper management seem to think renewing tsw every year and making quick money from it the way to go, imo the way should be making constantly good dlc, making fixes and following through in delivering them to make the pre existing content better, surely if you have a good roster of dlc, not only would that keep existing players, but it would also attract new ones because it proves to them that not only are the devs good at making content but when they see problems they can rest assured they will be fixed at some point?

As many others has said tsw 4 feels more like a quality of life upgrade to 3 and should've been that way and the situation we’re in now will most likely repeat itself next year when 5 comes out. I feel like at the moment the feedback we give is only being passed around the dev space when really at a time like this it should be going much higher into the company to the people who are making the decisions on whether to make a separate release each year.

Furthermore, back when 2 was announced on stream they said they needed to bring tsw forward and that 2020 want going in the direction they wanted which was fair enough I guess? When 3 released as a separate purchase far as I'm aware they offered NO EXPLANATION as to why and now that 4 is releasing they're saying they want to put all their attention in the making it as good as possible (which is why 3 is getting no further development soon). Idk about you but I'm sensing a small pattern and I have no doubt that if tsw 5 is announced this time next year they will say the same thing.

Unless they get the message we are sending the cycle will continue with broken promises and content left untouched etc, and then in a few years time we may end up having tsw 6, 7 and 8.

 

For goodness sakes…

 

DTG… apologise to your mother and go to your room.

 

To be quite frank, Dovetail should have just said when TSW3 came out:
"Train Sim World 2 will not be updated, bar some updates after TSW3 launch" - exactly what they're doing with TSW3 now.

The fact that they strung it along afterwards was the issue, as it stoked the tension. If they came clean and said "look, we're sorry but it's over, we will/have to focus on the newer edition" - fair enough.

To string it along for a year just to say "sorry but no" after that amount of time wasn't wise. Who knows - maybe they did want to but never had time. We don't know how things go down internally.

I don't think DTG owe us an apology for what's happened - and they absolutely do not have to promise to stick with TSW4 for a few years or give us advanced notice of TSW5. That's a ludicrous demand.

 

Perhaps the OP has in mind the famous scene from Game Of Thrones where Cersei was forced to walk naked through King’s Landing by the Sparrows… “Shame, shame…”

 

"We’re extremely sorry it has taken this long to come to this conclusion.

"For Train Sim World 4, we’re making it very clear what you can and can’t expect from the remaining Train Sim World 3 game updates, and we hope you can accept our apology."

They already apologised in the roadmap 2 article, so yeah.......

I would like them to say that TSW4 will have a life of 1 year and that to get fixes beyond that you have to buy something each year. Just front up about it and stop playing coy, they know exactly what they are doing.

 

For me it's the fact that TSW3 has only been out for a year, many of us have spent a not inconsiderable sum of money on DLC only to be told that the title will no longer be supported is just a kick in the teeth really, from what many people say this is an update at best and had it been then no doubt I'd be awaiting the new routes with interest but I'm unsure if I will buy it because I don't buy a lot of DLC for the likes of DTG to then drop support so quickly because that just ruins my relationship with them when I hear that this is how DTG have operated all the way through TSW, also having to redownload my TSW3 routes (at no extra cost but still) is just ridiculous, why couldn't they just be carried over if you own TSW3? It IS good value admittedly and I fancy some of the upcoming routes but I'm just not sure yet whether I trust DTG enough to buy it. Another thing that may have placated people would've been a discount for TSW3 owners but I guess DTG sold their souls to the bean counters, I get how they're a business and they have to make money and that's fine but you don't build a good foundation by snubbing your loyal customers.

 

Option 5:
DTG should once and for all remove the create a poll functionality from the forums to avoid additional pointless threads which have already been debated to death

 

No, mainly I just want them to, in their own words, acknowledge what exactly it is that has struck a nerve with a large part of the community, including me, and express actual understanding of it.
Actually being heard and understood already goes a long way often times, including when it comes to community management during sensitive moments.

 

This is just getting silly and tedious now! It is a train simulator/game, if you look at all the important things going on in the world it doesn't even register! I feel like we are making a TV drama which is a cross between Monty Python and Eastenders!

Are you sure it is DTG driving the wedge?!

 

I agree with most of what you're saying.
To be clear, I am indeed not trying to put blame on any individual person, and I don't think for a second the specific devs working at DTG are bad or greedy. After all, they're probably salaried. Highly unlikely they'll share along in any shortterm profits made from actions like these.

And I'm also agreeing with you about it probably being a pattern.
To also address this one at the same time

I am well aware that they probably wouldn't, though I wouldn't call it 'ludicrous', and what I would mainly hope to achieve with the demand of having them be upfront on development of TSW5, is for them to be transparent about their intentions, if it is indeed there, to make TSW a yearly release.
I hate when they play coy, and that's definitely what some of the tension is coming from.
Transparency really goes a long long way with things like these.

 

Exactly.

Ironically, part of their problem is giving out TOO much information that people interpret as promises.

IE Bakerloo comes out with a relatively mediocre timetable. But its not like they lied about it, it was released how they said it would be released. There's some negative feedback but people still got what they paid for.

DTG after the fact decided to update it, and said they'd release it for TSW2. They do in fact update it with a MUCH better timetable, but release it for TSW3 and end up never releasing the TSW2 version. Most people would have moved on TSW3 anyway and got it. But a small minority who cling to TSW2 are pissed about not getting something that was technically promised.

If DTG had just kept their mouth shut about it until TSW3 was out and then released it as part of the TSW3 release they'd at least have avoided a "broken promise". Just straight up kill the old version when a new version is announced, don't dance around it.

 

They should be more up-front yes, but games are only announced when they're ready to be. They could easily just announce TSW5, 6 and beyond today without saying when they'll come and what comes with them.

We saw with Spirit of Steam and Rush Hour (Rush Hour was a really good example) of what happens when you announce stuff too early.

 

Yes, I'm pretty sure it's them driving the wedge.
They're the ones that decided to do this.

If I stepped on your toes, physically speaking, is it you or is it me that is to blame for you having reacting to that?
DTG has stepped on the toes of a not insignificant part of the community. Instead of looking at the person angry their toe is being stepped on, you could also look at the person who is stepping on their toe, even if your toe is left untouched, and even if that person means no harm.

And lastly. Different people take different things in different ways.
You are not the arbiter of how certain things are interpreted and come over to some people, and TSW is a hobby I'm quite invested in.
Certainly there are other issues in the world, but that is no reason not to speak up when something else affects you.

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. Could you elaborate?

I would actually argue that especially Rush Hour is how it's meant to work. I had no problems with it whatsoever.
They had a new feature that they implemented, and they put that feature in the new routes, which, if you weren't interested, you were free to just ignore, and your game was still properly supported.
Admittedly they did announce TSW3 not long after, which still didn't feel right, but still.

 

Rush Hour is good enough as it is - but when it was first revealled they did it far too early, and over-promised.

The main offenders:
Reveal: "Rush Hour will be one bundle, for £24.99, all releasing at once."
Actual: Rush Hour was a season ticket, with staggered releases. (Can't remember the price. £30 or smth.)

Reveal: "DRA goes to Dresden Airport and Meißen"
Actual: Both branches removed from gameplay (Meißen was added later, due to Lukas and Ed taking it upon themselves)

Reveal: "Rush Hour (as one purchase) will be available forever."
Actual: Season Ticket delisted a few months later.


As of today it's not really an issue but at the time it was big - particularly the DRA one. I think that's largely why Dovetail leave things late - that and the Class 313 debacle.

 

I say no, despite hating the DTG policy and not buying TSW4. Idont trust what they say, unfortunatly.
No need of an apology if its another lie.

I will just stand away of TSW4 and watch how it unfolds. I have my idea..

 

Oh yeah, I remember now.
I do remember the DRA one. Funny cause it's now probably the most liked German route in the game.
I do remember being a bit disappointed by it, and certainly it wasn't good conduct by DTG, also worth an apology (which, if I remember right, they did?) but far less egregious than this particular issue.
Sure, they overpromised early, but I'm not talking about overpromising here, in their need for transparancy. Just asking for transparancy on how long they're planning on supporting the current TSW iteration.

The problem here today I have is with them quite unnecessarily moving on to a complete new game version that you're gonna have to buy to keep up support and to be able to buy and use future content.
Rush hour, if you weren't interested, you could just ignore and still make use of future content.

 

I appreciate your response and I respect your answer.
I agree, the problem is that they've broken the trust the community placed in them, and it's valid to not want to hear an apology out of feeling distrust.

Trust is easily lost, but hard to restore, after all.
Works both for interpersonal relationships as well as those between company and community.

 

Christ, some people really need a bit of a reality check!!!

 

A huge drama is being created and I don't see the point of it! Nothing is going to change, you aren't going to suddenly change peoples mind into not buying TSW4, you aren't going to change the way DTG do business.

All we have seen the last few days are the usual angry posters, some who you never see on any of the more positive threads, coming together to gloat and share their own solidarity in misery!

You do what you want but I just think is fruitless and frankly can't make you very happy, but you continue.

I look forward to seeing which of these angry posters seem to suddenly have acquired TSW4 in the next few months!

 

Amen to that. I know DTG don't want to suppress opinion but as I intimated earlier we don't need yet another whinging thread. If the game and DTG's plan for it are so bad, why are they even here?

I'm no angel when it comes to constructive critcism and there are many aspects of TSW that need fixing. Then you can say that about most games or entertainment. Buy a new CD and there's at least one track where you go, what the heck were they thinking of writing that. I spent quite a bit of money on the Game Of Thrones books (see my earlier comment) but yes I'm pee'd off Mr Martin seems to have writer's block for the last ten years and can't finish writing his story, but it doesn't stop me enjoying what we have.

Back to TSW, it's a piece of entertainment software, which for the most part does what it says on the tin and TSW4 promises to massively expand on that.

 

ha I also have been waiting impatiently for book 6 and 7, I suspect that HBO have bodged the job completely but also that sadly we will never get either book

 

They could certainly have got the messaging across better.
There's a technical disconnect between TSW3 and 4 in the form of things like portals for ai trains that isnt backwards compatible. Theyve spent far too much time talking about pretty minutiae rather than really driving home the technical necessity of the step that theyve taken.
If theyre going to apologise, it should be for miss-reading the room.

 

"Back to TSW, it's a piece of entertainment software, which for the most part does what it says on the tin and TSW4 promises to massively expand on that."

Well yes it is and yes it does but TSW3 has only been out a year and some people will have had it for far less than that so for DTG to no longer release content for TSW3 and effectively make you pay for an update is a bit of a liberty in all honesty. I have all but one of the uk non steam routes (never bought west somerset) and that's a lot of money right there and yes I know I can redownload them on 4 (when the feature works eventually) and I know that actually the basic bundle isn't terrible value I just don't like this turn of events tbh.

 

Ok, well, if the way it's done works fine for you and you're happy with it, I'm happy for you. You're free to ignore the upset.
Just understand there's different perspectives, and just because something works for you doesn't mean it works for others, and just because you're happy with it, doesn't mean the upset others are feeling over it is any less valid.

Don't invalidate how others experience it just because it works fine for you.

As to acquiring it in the end anyway, despite my dissatisfaction over it, I probably will, because I don't want support for one of my favorite games and escapes to end.
Doesn't mean I'm somehow supposed to be happy about it, and doesn't mean I'll just take it quietly.
If you don't like something you should speak up, and if it's to something you care about, yes, be loud.

Will DTG acknowledge these threads, and our grievances? I don't consider it too likely.
Will they change course in the future? Probably not, but we'll see
Is there a chance of DTG acknowledging our grievances or changing course if we don't speak up about it and make noise? Absolutely not.

People are free to complain about grievances they have.
Change is unlikely, but if you don't speak up, it won't ever happen or be acknowledged.
Just because you don't see the problem doesn't make it "whinging".

In fact, I'm gonna say all the "StOp WhInGiN" posts really should stop whinging about all the supposed whinging.
Don't agree? Fine. You're free not to. You're also free to move on.

Yeah I'm sorry. That doesn't really work as a comparison.
Games and books aren't nearly close enough as a medium to be able to really compare them. But if we're going to anyway.
Haven't read Game of Thrones, but I would like to at some point.
You're waiting on "Winds of Winter", right? Sure, "A Dance With Dragons" is still here, but now suppose George R.R. Martin now came out with a sidestory you're not really interested in personally. But somehow, if you don't buy that sidestory book that only marginally improves on the context in the main story, you literally won't be able to read any future books like "Winds of Winter" before specifically also buying that new side story book regardless if you care about it.
Cool if that hypothetical side story book is something you're interested in. But if it's not, you're just getting an unnecessarily raw deal.
Get it?

 

Why don't you just chill and drive some virtual trains instead of writing these long essays...

 

Do they? Why?

 

The same could be said to you and all those critiquing the critics. Why not just go play tsw rather than being on the forums complaining about the people justifiably complaining

 

After watching the roadmap stream I really don't get this moaning about paid upgrades or support stopping for TSW3. I'm also gonna stop caring about people who keep insisting that this is unfair or whatever they called it.

Finally I'm getting the product I'm demanding. I don't like to get things for free. I demanded a lot of this stuff so why shouldn't I pay if they build it. I just realised there is not much left on my wishlist. Almost hoping we get some new issues to moan about.

 

Who says I'm not doing that?
I mean, I'm actually not right now, specifically because my PC has some issues I need to resolve first, but that's just a technicality, right?

Reason is because I consider this to be a problematic situation, and if I just did as you said and "just chill and drive some virtual trains instead of writing these long essays", chances of these issues ever being acknowledged or a better course of action being taken are zero if you just keep quiet about them.
No one has ever made anything better by shutting up and being complacent. Get where I'm coming from?

As is said though. I should ask you the same. Why do you keep pushing back when there's no need to?
If as a result of this thread I got things my way, nothing would change in any negative way for you.

 

I don't feel they owe anyone here an apology for bringing out TSW4 in September. Yearly updated releases were a thing with the old DTG Train simulator 20XX. If FOCUS/dtg want to get back to that type of release schedule that's their call. No one is making you buy the latest. If what they're doing makes you rage, you likely have worse problems than buying into an updated game.

Kind regards,
Dave

 

Except it wasn't.
I still have my copy I got in 2011 and came out in 2009 and I never once have had to buy the game again and I still do and it's still supported.
Every year it was just an update. Didn't have to buy a thing for the update.

 

I think people don't understand this.

The whole point is that TS20xx was an annual release, but you got a free core upgrade if you already owned a previous version. There was no locked down paywall, you were a TS player and had the latest core version AT ALL TIMES. Alongside this every year they released 3-4 routes in a pack, 3 in the standard version and the 4th in the deluxe version. Some were existing, others were brand new. This is what you could buy each year, and it was a decent deal as a bundle. But crucially, if you decided you didn't want any of them or already owned the ones you wanted you could pass, but you still got the core update for free.

All people are asking for is the TSC sales model for TSW it is quite simple.

 

This exactly.
No one is saying people should just get free stuff. But if you already own the game, you already own the game.
Unless the "new game" is radically different enough to actually justify calling it a new game, it's not a different game, and you already own it and shouldn't have to pay for an update.
They should've just made the routes a bundle with optional loco's for an additional price.

It's why I keep going back to the example of X-plane cause they're a good example of a paid version upgrade that I think is within the limits to justify it.
I'm not even against a re-release of a new version of the game if it's genuinely upgraded enough to qualify as a genuine new game.
Look at this and tell me they're the same game. Along with physics, aerodynamics and flight model overhauls so it actually feels different too.

 

The only petition I'm interested in is a petition to ban polls.

 

Why? You could just ignore them if you don't like them.
In this case they actually have a good purpose too, as "yes" doesn't have to win. You can see the percentage of votes and total votes, and it just has to show that the percentage agreeing is not insubstantial, which is less visible if you just went by likes.

Sounds to me like the people that keep complaining about polls in this thread just don't like it because they don't agree with the premise of this thread.
You're free not to agree as well as free to just vote "no" and/or just ignore the thread.

 

Isn't that the whole debate? You are free to buy TSW4, you can say no and you can even drop the game all together if you want. We won't demand you to apologise for whatever you decide. It's your decision. TSW4 is DTG's decision and until we get the game in our hands I don't see any need for DTG to apologise for anything. Knowing DTG we will already see apologies for a lot of stuff once the game is live.

Can't you just wait till September? Have you ever heard of Schadenfreude? It's a lovely experience and you have front row tickets to maybe experience it on launch date. Until then we will all have to live with the decisions DTG made. If you are lucky you will see me crying here that there are way too many bugs.

I had my piece of Schadenfreude already. It happened when the official TSW4 logo appeared for the first time.

 

Here's the thing though, could we trust the sincerity of any such apology? And if not, what's the point?

 

Not really. I get what you're saying, but this thread isn't really about having the freedom to buy TSW4 or not. It's about that you shouldn't have to in the first place.
It's not about which decision people make but that a decision has to be made in the first place, unnecessarily so.

I know what Schadenfreude is, and I'm not hoping for TSW4 to fail so I can have that. I want it to succeed in being everything TSW was ever meant to be.
I just don't want TSW to be turned into a defacto subscription model to retain support for the core game.

Yes, it would mean something, at least to me it does. Although I understand and respect if it's too little too late for you.
It's why I want them to acknowledge it and the cause in their own words, so it can't be a generic "we're sorry cause you feel bad, now please shut up" apology.
And also why I mentioned the part that they shouldn't justify their actions in any kind of apology, as that would add to any feeling of insincerity it could have.

Will it work? Probably not
Do the devs actually feel either feel sorry or at least be understanding of others feelings? We'll probably never know.
But an apology is always worth it, as is asking for one

 

This! 1000 times this.

Why not make a poll demanding the entire DTG crew to a dance on the stream? That's also fun to watch.

Instead of apologies I want DTG to build stuff that I like. Anyone saying DTG doesn't listen to their customers must start demanding feasible things I guess because things I asked I thought would take years until they would arrive were just thrown at me in the same fashion as I throw my money at them. I like this transaction. No complaints from this side at the moment, only gratitude

 

No, apologies are in part also self reflection. There will be no improvement without reflecting on wrongs. And you can't communicate with your community if you ignore dissatisfaction.
Even if you stick to your plan of action, you (DTG) should still at least acknowledge what the concerns and grievances are about, especially before they turn into grudges.

That's in large part where a community manager and team is for.
Not just to be the hypeman for all the fun stuff and some Q&A.

If you're happy with it, I'm happy for you.
Do you understand why I'm not?

Allow me please to also ask you, what exactly is it you're grateful about at the transaction?

 

No I really don't understand why you are not happy. I've seen so many improvements that I don't want them to take even one minute off to reflect on anything. It's crunch time! I wanne play their game without any delays.

I already paid for this game and now you want them to go sit and do nothing for a while? I'm starting to get unhappy now

 

I first Bought TSW2 when spirit of steam released and within a couple of months they released TSW3. To be Honest I was much more miffed about that than the bargain that is TSW4!

 

you're being hyperbolic and facetious I feel like.
I'm not saying there's no improvements at all whatsoever, but enough to make it feel like an actual new game? No.
Still feels like TSW2.8
I did watch the roadmap stream earlier and saw some good stuff. But still not enough to justify a rerelease.

The route and loco content could've easily been sold as a seperate pack.
The editor could've been an addition for a minor fee if they wished or just added in general.
The sandbox mode has long been promised as a feature already.
I already owned the game... 3 times actually. Why do I need to rebuy the same game again a 4th time for a single new feature that had been announced 3 releases ago?
The core driving experience has not been radically overhauled

 

At what point in time did any business have to say sorry for bringing out a new product, has the very concept of being a company and making money just evaporate from people's brains, the main point this and all other similar threads is people don't like when what they think should happen hasn't happened and now feel personally wronged. Cold hard truth is it's doing company things and making money, and nobody at the company probably even knows or cares if you exist, Dovetail don't owe anybody anything, it's doing that thing it's meant to do, it's called CAPITALISM..........

 

once again, capitalism is a choice variable, not a given....

 

As I wrote on another thread, these polls should either be moderated or eliminated. We did just fine without them. Someone should apologize, and it's not DTG.

And this particular thread should be shut down or moved off topic. It has long ago had nothing to do with trains or even TSW.

As I also posted yesterday, the forums are being taken over by children of various ages. " Lord of the Flies " comes to mind.