Petition For Dtg To Port The New Lighting To Newer Tsw2 Routes

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by tsw2, Sep 5, 2022.

  1. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Hi,

    comment if you support the petition :)

    To quote another user:
    Many people (customers who supported DTG since a long time) have now requested that at least the newer TSW2 routes (Rush Hour and the routes released after up to TSW3 release) get the new lighting or at least a lighting improvement of some sorts!
    Of course only if played in TSW3 (TSW2 route played in TSW3). At least if this makes it easier.

    Or DTG could give modders the tools and info they need at least to fix the lighting.

    The TSW2 lighting was basically kind of broken (as acknowledged by DTG by basically reworking it for TSW3). So i consider this a bug fix.

    What do you think TrainSim-Matt ?

    Please comment if you agree :)
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2022
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  2. darylb88

    darylb88 Member

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    Could be a signficant undertaking, but in the perfect world I would love to see the Bakerloo Line get the lighting upgrade. It would be the route which would benefit most from the eye adaptation and would be interesting to see what could be done with indoor underground lighting.
     
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  3. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    Would take years to complete, and lets be honest do you really want them to spend 6 months bringing lighting of GWE or WSR lighting up to date when both these routes are showing their age when compared to more modern routes?

    Theres an arguement to bring say route Rush Hour or newer routes up to the new TSW standard, and Id get on board with that to some degree.
     
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  4. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I think you've mentioned the 2 routes that have aged among the best in TSW. Partially thanks to the Pres Crew, but both were really solid to begin with, the 3D modelling on HST is IMO probably nr.1 in TSW rolling stock to this day.
     
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  5. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    The rolling stock might be, but in terms of gameplay and variety they leave alot to be desired, GWE especially.
     
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  6. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I'm fairly certain you just agreed with the original post.

    Cheers
     
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  7. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    I was replying to the post above mine wanting BKL upgrading.

    Cheers,
     
  8. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I think you've missed the point of what "lighting" means in this context
    Lighting doesn't just mean light sources or what casts a shadow. It means remaking each surface that casts or interacts with light and making sure it reacts in the proper way when casting or reflecting light and shadow interaction
    Look at the German route where they had two people dedicated to the light reactions of the surfaces for weeks and weeks to get that one route right.

    "Giving modders the tools" isn't the way to go here. Having some competent people sign up for 2nd or 3rd party procedures may be as then it would work on all platforms rather than just the PC brigade

    So I would suggest a rethink of your suggestion
     
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  9. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I really dont think it would take 6 months and i was only talking about Rush Hour or newer.
    We have already seen how fast some things can go. DTG saying it will take x months is not something i would believe at this point. There must be some modularity in the way the lighting works.

    If DTG has to manually do the lighting for each route each time from ground up the process is flawed to begin with since all the routes use the same "materials" basically and all are on planet earth and in europe and USA.
    But this topic is not to discuss technical details. Its just to agree or disagree with the notion of lighting upgrades for newer TSW2 routes.
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2022
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  10. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    So your question is, "do you agree or disagree that the stuff you bought should be improved for free?"

    Cheers
     
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  11. CrAzZyKiLLa

    CrAzZyKiLLa Well-Known Member

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    I agree that maybe some should be updated the new lighting for example the core Rush Hour routes. London Commuter is one of my fav routes and would look stunning with the new clouds and lighting, as well as benefit from the improved night lighting.
     
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  12. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Not improved but fixes since the lighting in TSW2 was always fundamentally flawed.
    And please dont play the "DTG is poor" card. We all know with DTG money is mostly not the problem (you can look at their finances online). DTG is not a group of five indie devs living in a garage ;)
    But i see you disagree and dont want/need lighting upgrades for the TSW2 routes you bought...

    And actually, i personally would not mind to pay a few $ for a lighting fix if it was done to TSW3 standards. I dont said i want it for free ;)
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2022
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  13. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...to understand the new TSW3 lighting system, you first have to explain what it means. The light intensity of the sun (i.e. daylight) was increased properly. Compared to TSW2 by at least 1000 times. All other light sources, such as train lights, street lamps or even the moon, were also adjusted to physically measured lumen values in the UE4. This results in a much more realistic illumination, which was also equipped with an eye adaptation tool. The volumetric clouds are also adapted to this TSW3 illumination, so they are not available to former TSW2 routes in TSW3. On some older routes there are also light-baked sections such as the underground stations of Leipzig in RT, which have to be pre-calculated and baked using new light data. In short, the effort per route to switch to TSW3 lighting is quite high. I can also imagine that in the future only routes that have been played a lot will be fully adjusted. It goes without saying that everyone prefers their favorite route and I also hope for adapted rush hour routes, but everything takes time... ;)
     
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  14. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    I thought the new skybox and dynamic weather will be available for TSW2 routes in TSW3?
     
  15. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder what DTG's view of the actual playerbase activity is like. If they could identify (perhaps from the DTL driver logs etc) which routes people were spending most of their time playing, they could form a shortlist for a few routes to bring up to TSW3 spec. I'm purely guessing, but I imagine London Commuter is one of the most popular routes, well above, say, Boston Commuter, so simply being a recent route may not justify the effort. If their stats show that, actually, everybody still loves playing, I dunno, TVL or something, that would be a better candidate than something fairly new, but not as well received.
     
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  16. CrAzZyKiLLa

    CrAzZyKiLLa Well-Known Member

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    TSW2 routes will only include the new dynamic weather setting and thunder, lightning effects. All other features will not be available on TSW2 routes such as sparks, clouds, lighting ect
     
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  17. rennekton#1349

    rennekton#1349 Well-Known Member

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    I would like some sort of lighting upgrade, whether it is better night lighting or headlight upgrades to come to routes that are really dark and unplayable during the night. Like cathcart circle or some american freight routes. Not every route needs a lighting upgrade but maybe a few could be so it makes night runs more enjoyable
     
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  18. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    Of course the skybox and the dynamic weather are part of the preservation updates and available for TSW3 (and TSW2, but without dynamic weather option). Regardless of the lighting! ;)
     
  19. Sparmi

    Sparmi Well-Known Member

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    ...DTG's Top Ten (charts) of the most played routes would be a nice idea. Something like that has already been published on a previous roadmap. SEHS was definitely a number one hit, so it got a remastered edition, including an expansion! ;)
     
  20. redrev1917

    redrev1917 Well-Known Member

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    The lighting on TSW2 is not a bug, just because its not as good as TSW3 routes, does not make it a bug. If the lighting was so so bad in TSW2 why did you continue to buy more DLC?

    And if you really think its a bug why would you pay extra to fix it? I certainly wouldnt pay good money for bug fixes, I expect bugs in TSW2 routes and TSW3 to be fixed for free, for example the bugged night lighting in CJP where as you descend at night you enter a thick fog with no visbility is a bug and Im certainly not paying again to have it fixed in CJP.
     
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  21. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    TSW2 routes in TSW3 will get dynamic weather but not the lighting or volumetric clouds, don't confuse LondonMidland's new skybox with the volumetric clouds.

    I think the lighting should be on Riesa Dresden and London Commuter, and perhaps one of the US routes like Clinchfield or Harlem rather than Boston Commuter which has a lot more wrong with it.

    However I fear we will have to wait until TSW 4 or 5 when one of those routes will get a super new version...
     
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  22. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    My my, you've made a lot of assumptions about my position on the topic that are patently false.

    Also weren't you mocking DTG just a few weeks ago for making customers "pay for updates" via TSW3? But now paying for fixes is okay?

    Edit: lol...
    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2022
  23. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As someone who is finding the eye adaptation a little overcooked and washing out the colours of the scenery when viewed from the cab in bright sunlight, I would not be hugely in favour of this. At the least, it needs an option to toggle on or off and fine tune the effect to user preferences.
     
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  24. GrandMoffLucaPaguro

    GrandMoffLucaPaguro Active Member

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    In a perfect world I'd like to take the Bakerloo line, and seamless switch to surface and other tube lines :)
     
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  25. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate the spirit of this thread, but in reality a petition is not going to magically provide the time/money required to do all the upgrades. They have addressed this in their streams on the amount of work required.

    I mentioned this in an another thread which I think may be a good idea: If/when they do start to think about upgrading routes, put it to a community vote on which one to do. Im sure they also have player data on which routes are the most popular so it may not be too necessary...but it keeps us involved :)
     
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  26. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Personally, im not the least bit bothered. I’ll play them as they are. I’m £500 into this hobby and I’d rather my investment focused on delivering new locos, new routes and new features than constantly putting more lipstick on old faces.

    At some point time has to move on and improve newer offerings and I’d suggest calling the game tsw3 is a clue to that rather than tswletsputanotherplasteronsomethingold
     
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  27. cloudyskies21

    cloudyskies21 Well-Known Member

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    But surely this has already been happening for ages with the preservation crew updates for older routes? I mean look at Bakerloo, going to be around 600 services compared to the roughly 200 previous - surely it's reasons like this why some, but not all, older content deserves to be worked on if the context is right, and the gameplay vastly improved.

    If any TSW 2 routes were to get an update, London Commuter and Riesa Dresden would be my only recommendations - they're not just any old routes, but were the flagship ones of TSW 2: and their timetables alone deserve at least that.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  28. DTG Alex

    DTG Alex Community Manager Staff Member

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    We are glad you're all enjoying the updated lighting and aware of the demand of routes prior to TSW3 getting the new enhancement, but just as redrev1917 and others have explained - this is a massive undertaking and it's one of the main reasons we switched to a new core game.

    What I can say is the new lighting on the routes in TSW3 will be the standard moving forward :)
     
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  29. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    In some ways that’s a relief as I already mentioned, the effect is overdone in certain lighting conditions and needs some sort of player control to adjust or turn off.
     
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  30. arek#2842

    arek#2842 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this.

    I would love to see at least Rush Hour routes to be updated to the new lighting system standard, but on the other hand if DTG want TSW3 to be actually a new game I think it's about time to leave the old stuff as it is and move on with developing something brand new. If the process of upgrading old routes with new lighting is laborious, as DTG already stated, then also from a straight forward business perspective there is no sense for DTG to invest it's resources on upgrading it: it would cost them a lot of time (and money) and they cannot sell those routes again to current owners.

    TSW2 is over, DTG should just fixed the major issues in it, along as those will be fixed for TSW3. Some of it's routes are great, but who said even better will not be delivered in time for TSW3? And if you want to play the old routes, because you love some of them, go ahead and enjoy them along with all the limitations that were present at the time, where it was developed.
     
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  31. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    Around the bigger point of TSW2 and TSW3, I’m beginning to think that the time has maybe come to just let pre-TSW3 content rest once the latest round of updates are released. I think perhaps DTG need to be looking to the future now rather than expending time on the past. I’m as annoyed as the next person that this content has been broken and bugged for so long, but I’m now at the point where I think a clean slate is what is needed, with all their ‘talent’ focussed going forward. TSW3 cannot be a repeat of TSW2.

    I’m going to buck the trend here and say that I think even bringing TSW2 routes into TSW3 is a mistake. I’d like to see the single best version of each loco and unit brought over and up to TSW3 spec, but I fear that bringing TSW2 content in is going to remain a distraction. Even though they’re effectively the same game, there’s enough stuff under the hood to justify cutting the mooring lines once and for all. TSW2 works just fine as it is, I no longer see the benefit of merging the two games together yet again. I also really fear for what this TSW2 content is going to look like running under TSW3…unfortunately the horse has already bolted because this content is coming today, like it or not, and what could have been watershed clean break is very shortly to become a complicated mess once again. Bringing this content over means that unfortunately we’ve already got multiple versions of the same loco / unit in the Training Centre (as per the streams). That HAS to stop now, keep this farce going any longer and it’s going to go from being a major inconvenience to unplayable.

    I really think that the best thing to have done would have been to let sleeping dogs lie, and I think asking them to start putting lipstick on bacon again is a massive waste of time and effort. Sorry and all!

    ps - If they have a moment of madness and decide to revisit old content again, then I’d suggest that before they even think about doing anything at all to older content they need to spend more time on the lighting in TSW3. It is undoubtedly an improvement but it’s by no means perfect and eye adaption is causing some noticeable issues. Too much of the time the game looks completely washed out and overly bright. When it’s in the sweet spot it looks fantastic, but far too often it’s outwith that sweet spot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  32. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    At least the message coming from DTG on this seems consistent. Stick to your guns guys & girls, it’s the right decision.
     
  33. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    I'll be surprised if all new routes for TSW3 will have the new lighting. Having it on older products is totally unrealistic.
     
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  34. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Until the point at which it becomes necessary to break backward compatibility (TSW5?) I see no harm in continuing to have the older content available in the game. As I commented in another thread earlier, maybe it is though time for a permanent price reduction on the older DLC to reflect its age.
     
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  35. chacal#2181

    chacal#2181 Well-Known Member

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    It will as they will be built with the new system in mind. DTG has done a big work with bringing this lighting system, they wull ise it from now, no doubt.

    I would like to see more routes updated, finally SOS is updated isnt it ? Maybe thz latest, the best, themost played ?
    Maybe we will see more extended routes that will be an occasion to redo the lighting from scratch judt like SEHS has been redone and upgraded ? Think about a longer LIRR redone, witj lighting, timetable and extended lines ? Or a GWE extended ? This one is popular despite its shortcomings.

    Or maybe lets them surprise us with new content.
     
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  36. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    It's fine it being in the game if it works. I dont think DTG should be putting resource at constantly trying to update stuff. All that does is inhibit future development. Its fine to keep a pencil in the draw to write with but as things mature you might want to upgrade to a biro or fountain pen and enjoy those instead (whilst knowing the less pretty pencil) can still be picked up and used.

    This whole TSW2 routes must be upgraded to tsw3 standard is delusional / farcical now.
     
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  37. GuitarMan

    GuitarMan Well-Known Member

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    I'll be honest having spent the weekend playing TSW3 - I get the line in the sand moment here. I am disappointed that some of my favourite TSW2 routes won't get this treatment - but I was happy playing them in TSW2 and I'm sure I will be in TSW3. I'm just keen to see more TSW3 content - new stuff - as to me the immersion of the new routes is above all I have experienced so far.
     
  38. GrandMoffLucaPaguro

    GrandMoffLucaPaguro Active Member

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    Though I certainly hope at some point, the older routes do get some TLC.
     
  39. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Indeed. I would rather the route and train building teams turn their attention to some of the many requested items in the Suggestion corner, if it's a coin toss between that and refurbishing old content. The exception would be another rework like happened with SEHS, maybe an extension to GWE, NTP or TVL at the same time bringing in the new features. I'd probably buy that again.
     
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  40. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    Why should it be unrealistic?
    Same game, same engine, same version if the engine?

    I really don't get why some of you instantly believe the "It would take months to update a TSW2 route" thing

    Even if it takes a handful of devs a week or two to fix (yes, fix because TSW2 lighting always was broken, a bug) the lighting of TSW2 route, this is something DTG should do and as I see, many agree. If these updates can/will be free or will be a few $ I don't know
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  41. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    With this attitude there will always be an excuse to release buggy/broken content and then abandoned it at some point.

    I would agree if TSW3 would be a new game...but it is not. It's the same engine, same engine version. It's TSW2.2 (if rush hour was 2.1)

    Again, TSW3 is NOT a entirely new game and that's why routes they released 6 months ago should not be abandoned. I really don't understand how some of you can cheer for these routes to be abandoned so you can spent money on new DLC, although you paid for the old ones that had the broken lighting to begin with

    I'm glad many agree that the lighting should be fixed in the newer TSW2 DLC routes
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
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  42. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I don’t recall where but Matt covered it in detail why recently.
     
  43. GrandMoffLucaPaguro

    GrandMoffLucaPaguro Active Member

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    The game is already unrealistic in the regard that you cannot go from the Bakerloo line and seamlessly get onto Paddington station for the GWR line.
     
  44. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    Looking at sehs I really think the light upgrades would ruin tsw2 dlc!
     
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  45. tsw2

    tsw2 Well-Known Member

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    What's wrong with the new lighting on SEHS?
     
  46. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    I agree with you on some points. TSW3 isn’t a new game and I’m not in favour of abandoning stuff I’ve paid for, but then that isn’t what is going on here.

    In this specific case I do think it’s time to let it go. Those routes are perfectly playable in TSW2 so no one is losing out, it’s not the same situation as TSW2020 to TSW2 and them initially planning to abandon all the content on an older engine and start again. Training Centre means the locos you own can be brought into the new game, that wasn’t possible before.

    If, at some point in the future, they chose to do another SEHS and extend a TSW2 route then great, do it and bring in it as a TSW3 route. I’ve just had enough of this merry-go-round where time they should be spending on looking forward is being spent looking back at content that fewer and fewer people will play as time goes by. The Preservation Crew did some good work but it all took far too long and often was no more robust than what it was meant to be patching.

    I really think it’s time to wipe the slate clean. TSW2 content is happy in TSW2, lets crack on and move forward and make TSW3 what TSW2 should have been in the first place!
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2022
  47. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I gotta admit the new lighting system does look good so far. Would love to see updates on the other routes as well. Wether it's realistic to expect these updates for free, and also for TSW2, is not up to me to decide.
     
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  48. dangerousdave

    dangerousdave Well-Known Member

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    It's too bright. Just an example, in the cab of the class 66, look at the pass/freight indicators, they are unreadable. Its the same with various bits and bobs in the other trains on sehs. It's not just the trains that are affected either. To me it looks like dtg have just turned the contrast up (not saying this is the case) it just seems everything on sehs is not modelled for that kind of light intensity.
     
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  49. JetWash

    JetWash Well-Known Member

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    It’s going to be interesting to see if the TSW2 content looks like SEHS. There’s an undeniable difference between it and the other 2 TSW3 routes.

    Just thinking out loud, did DTG just apply the compensation measure to SEHS, or did they in fact go through it with a fine tooth comb and change every single light on the route? I’m inclined to think it’s the latter, but if that’s the case I’m left baffled as to why the contrast, colouring and shadows etc is so crazy on SEHS compared to the other 2 routes.
     
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  50. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand why you say it will only take a week or two to fix?! They have said it would take a lot of work.

    You can keep repeating something, it doesn't make it fact.

    I think a lot of people have now accepted that TSW2 is gone, and lets concentrate on getting new content with the new effects under TSW3.
     
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