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(poll) 2 Years Later, Has Anything Changed?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, May 17, 2020.

?
  1. Excellent

    1.4%
  2. Very good

    2.9%
  3. Good

    4.3%
  4. Satisfactory

    13.8%
  5. Poor

    36.2%
  6. Very poor

    41.3%
  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Two years ago, back in February 2018, I created a poll regarding DTG’s communication which enabled me to see what you (the community) think of this.

    Below, here are the results of that said poll.
    37BCE290-7C96-4821-AF6B-C070C77F8B1D.jpeg

    Not many voters it must be said, however it shows that the majority of voters posted bad communication.

    Despite the results, personally I have found absolutely nothing has changed in this regard and in fact I found it has got even worse, if that is even possible.



    So today, I will create another poll which will ask the question; ‘How satisfied are you with DTG’s communication?’ with the same choices for you to vote.

    I am hoping I will get a lot more votes in this time, as the community has grown since. Maybe, just maybe, there will be a tiny amount of hope that DTG will actually listen this time and do something about it.

    So please, go ahead and vote in the poll and comment any of your thoughts and suggestions you may have. At the end of the day, I just want this simulator to succeed and the very little hope I have for it to be retained. However, the lack of transparency and communication from DTG is making this increasingly less likely for me.

    Thank you.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
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  2. I voted for "very poor".
    I would also like this simulator to go on. But I've lost (almost) all hope. If with the publication of TSW 2021 there will be no substantial change of strategy, I, and I truly say them reluctantly, throw in the towel.
    I've waited long enough.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 17, 2020
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  3. doublefine7

    doublefine7 New Member

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    I also voted "very poor".
    I really have fun with this game so it disappoints me very much that there is almost no communication at all. No communication about in which direction the game will go or what routes ór features are planned. It is really a shame that this game suffers to an almost non-existing communication strategy.
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    You’ve framed this poll around a post saying you think things have got worse, with the results of a previous poll for everyone to see. You have even stated that you would like DTG to take note of the result and improve their communication, again preempting the results of the poll. You may as well just tell everyone to vote poor or very poor. The timing is spot on for the result you want as it’s all recently kicked off on Discord.

    The other thing is this. It doesn’t matter how good or bad people think DTG’s communication is, it’s not going to change anything about the simulator itself. If people are under the impression that they don’t take notice of anything on the forum, what makes them think that voting in a poll on the forum will change that. They already have player surveys and such to gather better data as to how people think and will act accordingly. The forum doesn’t accurately reflect the whole player base either as in general more people come to forums to complain than any other reason.

    So in other words, the poll will show that forum members think DTG have poor communication, all those people who voted poor or very poor will feel great about that, and then nothing will change.
     
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  5. Hit in full. This is true.
    A forum that serves no purpose. As I wrote long ago, this is a forum that is good for the screenshots contest and for exchanging frustration between users. For me, as I wrote above, all this will still apply until August TSW 2021 (in the absence of news).
    Then I will delete my profile from here and uninstall this useless game from my PC.
     
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  6. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    stujoy I cannot just sit back and let DTG think it’s acceptable to carry on the way they are.

    I know this thread will change very little, if anything at all, but the forums seemed like the only suitable place where I can express how I feel about the situation.

    Regarding the game, it may not change much, but wouldn’t it be nice if someone from DTG replied once in a while? If not, what’s the point of these forums? You may as well just have it open for screenshot competitions, sales, updates and other PR related stuff.

    The question is, where do you go if you want to talk the the developers about something? Excluding their official bug reporting site, it seems nowhere.
     
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  7. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    I voted "Very Poor" - although if a lower category was included, say "Extremely Poor" - to mirror "Excellent".... then I would have gone for the lower category of "Extremely Poor". This is for a number of reasons:

    1. The extremely poor initial marketing, some of which has recently been initially grossly misleading (OSD, DB BR 155, NTP), or absent (failure to list Baby Bullet and M3 on correct PlayStation Store page), or wrongly branded ("Train Simulator World") on MS Store....
    2. The extremely poor access to manuals and documentation that come with the software (or not), especially for console users
    3. The extremely poor service that you get from Customer Support, which is mostly a serious problem with communication, and probably not a Dev, Programmer or Artist issue
    4. The extremely poor output and (now zero) response on their own official Forum, with some minor exceptions (Train Sim Steve seems to provide absolutely fantastic tech support to some queries)
    5. The extremely poor approach to providing any reassurance at all that game-breaking bugs have been recognised, and whether or not they will be fixed

    However... there is a plus point:

    6. It is clear that The Company puts a great deal of effort into live-streaming on YouTube, and although slightly (and perfectly reasonably) contrived, the presenters Matt and (until recently) Dmitri do answer queries where they can - and they do it directly - and they do it live on air.... and publicly. And this is quite an unusually fantastic level of access to a game developer team. This is currently done nearly daily (obviously excluding the Sam ones) - but the viewership is extremely poor on a live basis. Perhaps they should publish a schedule here...? I absolutely 100% believe that Matt P deserves a huge amount of respect and gratitude for the vast amount of time that he puts into this - it is actually an incredible commitment to put in time on weekends/evenings for this. It is also obviously a long-term showcase for the products, but nevertheless - it is simply awesome. Unfortunately this communication is not expected - whereas the first five points listed above are, and all of those should be mandatory.

    The Surprising Bit

    However - I believe that the games themselves (both TS1 and TSW) are generally utterly fantastic. They are very different. They both have gaps and bugs and issues. And if you took the best bits of each and made them into one game and ditched the broken bits in both, then that would be a phenomenal game. I personally think they should remain as two distinct games - with both being developed.

    The Difficult Bit

    Both TS1 and TSW contain flashes of genius. And if The Company fixed the glaring issues with both titles (including documentation), then quite frankly, there would be no clamour for much communication other than product releases. Until both games are brought up to a reasonable standard, where direct ongoing support for every broken/undocumented/unclear element is no longer needed......they will need to up their approach to communication as a matter of urgency.

    Just an opinion.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I understand your frustration and everyone else’s frustration but if the company don’t engage with us because the places they have put there to do so end up being just an endless torrent of dismay, anger and “I hate DTG because...” posts and little else, can you blame them from withdrawing even further?

    If they were to see a constructive appreciative well behaved community on the forum they would be more likely to communicate with us. At the moment they only have to announce a DLC release and the forum thread is filled to 11 pages of whining. We know the product isn’t perfect, we know there will always be bugs, we know we have to wait for official announcements for everything. We know there aren’t any route extensions, steam trains, editor, multiplayer, other features people want but crying and bitching and losing your rag at every opportunity isn’t going make any difference. It is utterly pointless other than to make the company give up on trying to communicate at all.

    It’s a bit strange how people think they have a right to talk to the developers and say anything they please. That is not a right anyone has, it’s a privilege. It’s a privilege that people have no right to abuse. If enough people abuse that privilege it will get taken away. No communication avenue is an open door to vitriol and anger. It needs to be treated with respect, even if you have legitimate issues to air.

    We all like a little moan. We can put any bugs we find on the forum. We can suggest routes and trains and features. We can help each other out with problems, share experience and learn things. When there is a legitimate problem to get a little more upset about we can lay it on a bit heavier with our criticism. We can do all of that. It does get read. Having a constant go at the company, its business practices, its choices, the speed of development, their CEO, anyone on the forum who isn’t as irate as you, someone on the forum who enjoys the game etc. etc. is not going to help anyone. Put yourself in the developer’s shoes and imagine how you would react to the endless complaining and increasing abuse. Would you like to face more of it or less?

    Some people imagine a weekly meeting at DTG where the management come up with ideas of how to screw up the fanbase. The evil geniuses who simultaneously generate more sales while making sure their product is more and more broken. “Ha! That’ll teach them. No editor for another year and we’ll make the horn sound slightly wrong on the new DMU.” The reality will be a more mundane meeting with progress reports, deadlines, endless spreadsheets and nobody at the head of the table stroking a cat. Let them get on and make trains.

    This post isn’t aimed at one person but to everyone of us.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2020
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  9. RobSkip

    RobSkip Member

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    At this point I don't even want to talk to the developers, I just want to have contact with someone at DTG, I don't care if it's a developer. I've had numerous emails and page messages straight up ignored, not to mention bugs reported legitimately through the ticketing site and never fixed, months and years on. It's not on for a company to leave legitimate enquiries without a reply, and definitely not to leave bugs unfixed.
     
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  10. What do you think of the so far unique DLC of an external developer?
    The BR 204 was released with a cart in the wrong position. A mistake to be ashamed of.
    Ok, a corrective patch is coming soon.
    If you go to a car dealership and order a BMW that is delivered to you with three rims of one type and one rim of another type, what review can you give that dealer?
     
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  11. ASRGT

    ASRGT Active Member

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    Id say the communication is ok, there are multiple avenues where you can interact directly with developers this is far more than allot of places. The developers have never not been clear they wont discuses un announced items , that's fair enough just look at the recent M3 or better yet the editor mention it to soon and all this community does is insight some mob chanting why is it not out yet, why is it not out yet, why is it not out yet.

    Is there room for improvement of course, more transparency on bug fixes would be great but then again any info that gets put out here on the forum or in discord ect is immediately descend upon with pitch forks about why not X or when is Y. In all honestly id rather the community have a reality check on its attitude some of you act like you would like to see the game burn, while its fine to be constructive and have a passion about the game some of the judgmental BS in here and discord is frankly repulsive.


    Even this poll comes off as a veiled dig at DTG its hardly constructive. it leads the discussion with a negative tone from the get go.

    good luck with the poll I look forward to finding the results screen capped to try and provided some validity to a DTG sucks comment down the line.;)
     
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  12. ASRGT

    ASRGT Active Member

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    "The BR 204 was released with a cart in the wrong position. A mistake to be ashamed of.
    Ok, a corrective patch is coming soon.
    "

    So an error is made and the response from developers ( communication) is there going to address the issue, however that's not good enough for you ! they must be ashamed, there noes must be rubbed in it , its a mistake ! there WRONG ! how dare they slight you in such a way they should be ashamed. They advised there was a fix and yet your still angry about it ! its not DTG that needs better communicating skills.

    "If you go to a car dealership and order a BMW that is delivered to you with three rims of one type and one rim of another type, what review can you give that dealer?"

    Even better example, if the car was delivered to the dealership with mismatched rims then the mistake was made at the factory, this has nothing to do with the dealership, in this case your review should be based on how the dealership dealt with the issue, did they note the error and source the correct rim, or did they simply ignore it ? But as you already showed your more interested in pointing out that it was wrong in the first place, not if the issue was in fact corrected. Why would a business want to communicate more with someone with that attitude.
     
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  13. It was only to emphasize the MACROSCOPIC error.
    Zero quality control.
    You are obviously one who is satisfied with everything. Not me.
    I would like to remind you that digital trains are paid for with real money. Nothing is free.
     
  14. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    Cry cry cry, whine whine whine.
     
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  15. Nice post. Compliments.
     
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  16. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Those of you having a go at people raising legitimate concerns need to have a look at yourself. The post 2 above this one is pathetic.

    The fact is that many of the issues that are evident in these DLC‘S post release are so glaring and so obvious that 1 of 2 things is happening.

    Firstly (and probably the lesser of the 2 evils) for whatever reason, the products are not being tested in any way whatsoever. That includes simply playing the DLC like an end user would. That in itself would pick up many issues because within an hour of almost every TSW release there is always an avalanche of posts with people experiencing problems. That would be sketchy indeed and I don’t believe that DTG doesn’t test software before release. That brings me neatly into number 2...

    DTG do test their software, and find sometimes very serious issues with it, but release it anyway. This can only be an edict from senior management, but what a way to do business. Occasionally, as has happened in the past, there is a hot fix within 48hrs but very often these problems get left for weeks, sometimes months, sometimes forever without being rectified. In my eyes this is simply unforgivable, and shows a complete disregard for the customer. Perfect example, the signalling on ECW was utterly wrong at release. You could still play the game but the route didn’t work as it should. It took months for that to be rectified. Someone made a conscious decision to release that DLC knowing that a fundamental part of it didn’t work. How is that right?

    This genre of simulation is in desperate need of some serious commercial competition. It is that and only that that will make the leopard change its spots. That, or people stop buying the DLC, but the apologists will still jump in with both feet on release day expecting things to have changed. Well they won’t. If they haven’t after 3 years, nothing will change going forward. So we’re doomed to keep having these same discussions, with the same people saying the same things forever.
     
    Last edited: May 19, 2020
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  17. nyswat19

    nyswat19 Member

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    This is my Opinion. Trains Sim world 2020 has the =power to be a Game changer in Train Simulator.. For me Great Graphics and love the the LIRR DLC but got bored after 2 to 3 weeks. Now im more i have to be in the mood to play! Im still more on Trainz 2012 auran then anything and the graphics for that game is old school but everything is editable :).... ​

    Trains Sim world 2020 MY review
    Trains sims world meet the high Graphic mark for me and is enjoyable. But after a while for me it gets Dull No life ,only 2 Ai trains roaming around.. I notice with the new m3 Lirr that now in penn station i notice 2 other trains parked and do nothing. Its very Quiet and as i said before its like the game predicted Covid-19 and knew MTA will be shutting down service and having 1 train per hour .with that being said The only reason i decided to get TSW is for the LIRR DLC and you can be either pick any train to drive or be a passenger but this is the catch you would have to go to service mode and pick a route and then be a passenger! Rail faning and waiting for a train takes a Very Ling time and no Train Actions or Delays to deal with with! no type of challenge and the main stations are great but no life no trains no nothing...

    Trains Sim world 2020 Contacting DTG
    After a while asking around the forums about this "so call editor" many people have many views 1): it will never come 2): DTG is blowing smoke up our rear..or 3) being positive about the editor coming out one day. So i decided to contact DTG and ask them about the editor and told him it would be great just to give a update to the community...Let us know what is happening,from the time i contacted them a year and a half have pass with no updates about the editor and i can understand if they rain into a issue cause making a editor friendly for all will be hard using Unreal Engines. All that was said that Matt.P already posted it on the fourms and its was year ago... I felt like DTG didn't even care! This game isn't like call of duty This game is for those who want to play out there passion or explore the train life or just simply look at the Trains moving from the comfort of your home! a hobby :) .. and for DTG not to even consider "Hey lets make a quick update let keep our community inform about the editor so at least people will stop complaining or wondering" if people do complain after the update well that is on the them but DTG would have done there part at least!.. The Fact DTG is focus on money and pushing DLC... and don't really care cause people will always buy and keep putting bread on there table! So yea that is my view on the game and the DTG customer service... I hope someone see this and just change up! i really like the game but its hard to play every week when it gets boring and no traffic.. Only excitement driving the train for 2 weeks then Blah where is the AI trains . where is the Delays. where is the 24/7 service moving instead of the 24/7 Parked service..

     
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  18. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    I respect your opinion to call my post pathetic just as much as in my opinion, all the damned whining is pathetic. FFS
     
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  19. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 New Member

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    => YES

    => NO =)
    DTG just thinks about money and doesnt care about player experience. That a fact since TS and will never change
    But why change this ? people continues to buy high priced DLC which are 80 finished ...
    DTG definitely doesnt not deserve the community who really want to help to make TS / TSW a good game.
    If you are looking for good devs and devs who hear their community go to ETS / ATS. SCS Software so much better ...​
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2020
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  20. Lombra

    Lombra Active Member

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    People focus a lot on "communications", but I think it's simply a symptom of the production flaws. People want to hear that so and so is going to get fixed or implemented, but the problem isn't that they aren't telling us about it; it's that they aren't actually doing it.
     
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  21. LimitedEdiition

    LimitedEdiition Well-Known Member

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    I agree 100%. Communication and transparency is only useful if the hypothetical responses from the developers are reassurances that they will fix the bugs in old content releases and update them accordingly. Dovetail's past track record of adding substance to old DLCs is abysmal at best (ie. platform clippings on LIRR, Safety systems bugged underground in NEC, Dosto cab cars still not giving us proper destinations other than Not in Service on the new routes, missing skyline in Essen Hbf, ZERO service mode timetable improvements other than to push loco DLCs (any word on LIRR or adding the 425 to MSB btw?), the list goes on and on). I suspect they have no intention of ever revisiting old content in any meaningful way other than to push DLCs and fix bugs that cannot be overlooked like permanent red signals, so they probably decided silence was their only option. The Oakville route is a clear example of this where the final response was to simply remove the "inaccessible" track from the 2D map rather than even attempt at adding to the missing industrial complexes, not to mention the attempt at covering it up by removing the preview stream video off their Social Media pages.
     
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  22. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Although this is logically obvious, I just want to point out that all old DLC content used to be brand new content, and that all of it is still on sale, and in the case of certain 18 month-old major faults on NTP, the Class 47 is part of the current bundled pack for TSW. Major faults with "old DLC" should take priority over new DLC.

    Unfortunately I now assume that any new content will be bug-ridden at release (even if it subsequently becomes "old DLC"), and that it might remain bug-ridden in perpetuity, because there is no clarity on whether or not bugs are recognised, let alone on a waiting list for fixes.

    I can no longer justify ever again buying any new DLC at full price... or anywhere near to full price. Not until the "old DLC" is fixed. The "old DLC" should not be forgotten - if it is still on sale then it is very current DLC.
     
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  23. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    ^ Good points well made.
     
  24. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    Thanks. I think the point I am trying to make is that the lack of communication savages your confidence in The Company.

    But there are examples of good communication out there. Take Derail Valley (on PC). They developed their train simulator and took it as far as they could and then quite openly said something like: "We tried to finish this, but ran out of cash. So we are putting this out on early release at a very reasonable price, and if we get enough sales we will finish it properly."

    And a few months later they are releasing a revised beta version saying something like: "Thanks to everyone for the support - we have been able to more than double the effort we put in to the first early access release and have transformed the game, but we are still not yet ready to release it as a fully finished version, but we are working on it...."

    And that gives you confidence - because it is honest - and it is better than - "Oh let's just dump this untested guff on our loyal customer base - that'll do - and when they complain, we are going to say nothing....and then they will forget all about it when we all move on and hype up another unfinished release......"
     
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  25. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Agree with with Plastic Pal has said above.

    I don’t care if it’s ‘good’ or ‘bad’ news that a company has to say, it’s the fact that they are making the effort to communicate and are being honest with their user base.

    With DTG, it’s just complete silence which leads to endless speculation, boredom and people end up falling out with each other over silly things.

    Their latest DLC as an example, the M3. If they could tell us why no new services were added with it, or why absolutely no route fixes were made, then people would be a lot more understanding.

    It’s a bit like how they released the OSD DLC with the big chunk of map being inaccessible. Instead of an immediate explanation, it took them days to write up a response as people took their rage on these forums.

    Be honest.
    Be responsible.
    Be better.
     
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  26. Ian1991

    Ian1991 Well-Known Member

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    The fact they never share information makes it look like the game is at a dead end.

    We always ask about an editor, multiplayer, longer routes, ai fixes, weather changes, timescale feature, a button to simply end a schedule and every single is answered with 'no news on that im afraid'.......so does that mean put up and shut up? does it mean theyre being worked on, will never be worked on? just rediculous if they think they can keep wacking out 20mile routes for 25quid and not improve the engine or features.
     
  27. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

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    Here's my firm belief: "We did not have enough time or resources to do either of these things without seeing a loss in profit, and/or without missing the deadlines set by the higher up in the company. The CEO has another yacht to purchase after all, so we can't let him down."

    Dovetail, feel free to correct me if I am wrong.
     
  28. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 New Member

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    I m sure they are laughing by reading us :D
    Hey look at the haters who buy our 30€ DLCs :D
     
  29. maxipolo12

    maxipolo12 New Member

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    Even the Smiley's forum have worse textures than TS..
     
  30. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: May 21, 2020
  31. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    What specifically is wrong about that tweet? What’s different about what they say and what the content is? Genuinely would like to know.
     
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  32. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    Not sure what he is on about but I just took a look and did not like what I saw for a route costing over $45 Canadian. That's a lot of additional requirements "in order to play":

    Please Note: European Loco & Asset Pack, ScotRail Class 68 Loco Add-on, BR Class 170 ‘Turbostar’ DMU Add-On and BR Standard Class 7 ‘Britannia Class’ Steam Loco Add-On are required, as separate purchases, in order to play the scenarios featured in this add-on.
     
  33. hightower

    hightower Well-Known Member

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    Just Trains made that route about 4 years ago (and it shows, because it’s certainly not their best work) and that is what you’re getting. For DTG to suggest it is a ‘brand new’ DLC is stretching the truth well past breaking point.

    ps In addition, the whole point of Just Trains content being made available on Steam in the past was that you could buy the route and everything needed to make it work was included. The same idea applied when AP released Wherry Lines on Steam through DTG. It seems that’s no longer the case, and you’re now expected to own things separately to make it work.
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2020
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  34. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Oh right. That’s certainly not the impression given by the ad. I did notice all the extra DLC you needed for the scenarios to work and it seemed a lot, but had no idea this was not a new route. Very misleading. I don’t know much about TS other than from when I considered getting a PC a few years ago specifically for it, after using Trainz on my mac. I didn’t go for it in the end as I lost my job, and gave up on train simulators until I discovered TSW last August. I got the impression then that I would end up in a circle of buying A and B to make C work and it would get as frustrating as Trainz was for me. I certainly wouldn’t like the extra confusion of misleading advertising on top.
     
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  35. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 7, 2019
    Messages:
    66
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    This is exactly why I haven’t bothered with TS1 since 2014. Content you purchase not working until you buy other stuff.

    That, and the fact that Dovetail’s lack of quality control was so bad that the default stuff had friggin placeholders in the tutorial...
    [​IMG]
     

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