Poll: Should Formal Action Be Taken Against Dtg For Mis-marketing The Oakville D L C ?

Discussion in 'Technical Reports' started by synthetic.angel, Feb 28, 2020.

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  1. YES - DTG's advertising and marketing materials before Oakville was released were misleading

    40 vote(s)
    33.9%
  2. YES - DTG's advertising and marketing materials for Oakville continue to be misleading

    46 vote(s)
    39.0%
  3. NO - DTG just made a mistake, but they apologised and it's all okay now - no harm has been done

    51 vote(s)
    43.2%
  4. NO - DTG didn't do anything wrong at all - the advertising and marketing were all perfectly fine

    13 vote(s)
    11.0%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    That isn't actually true - the same guy thing.... But.... Anyway....

    I do note... that for someone that has only just joined the Forum today - that you have got to grips with the Forum pretty quickly - you fast learner you....! Well done - very impressive....! You've picked it all up very quickly, almost like an old hand.... ;-)
     
  2. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Well-Known Member

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    You could have right. He is crazy that for sure. August 27 he started and he have done 620 postings. 4 posting a day
    But this last week he have done over 200 postings. 35 in a day....... And he even is Factor41 it is really really crazy.
    We can just hope Dovetail block him from this forum.
     
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  3. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Hi Jorgen

    Well - I am very glad that you take such a personal interest in me, if that is something that makes you feel happy. I like people to feel happy.

    I would just like to point out that, yes:

    1. I have an opinion; and,
    2. I will defend myself, and my right to have an opinion

    Thanks

    Synthia
     
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  4. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Well-Known Member

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    You must have right. They are same persons very sure.
    Synthetic.Angel started 27 Aug 2019 622 messages positive ratings 906
    Factor 41 started 26 Aug 2019 636 august positive ratings 806

    You are completely destroying this forum. Dovetail will not write anything as long as you are here.
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
  5. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well - if you feel sure that you have enough information to make this allegation - then I would suggest that you make a report. I give full permission to DTG to disclose to you that I only have one account - if this is something that you really need to be sure about.

    But can I ask you something - a genuine question.....?

    What is it, that you are so worried about, when it comes to my posts? What harm is there to be done if DTG are asked to improve their marketing, or if they are asked to release a patch for the DB BR 155? Or start testing things DLC (effectively) before they are released...? Or if trophies/achievements work? What problem do you have with anything that I have to say....?

    Please let me know what it is that you want - and I will see what I can do for you.
     
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  6. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    WTF? We both happen to have similar views and are both capable of writing forum posts to explain it so therefore we must be the same person?! :D I'm not willing to piss about with a second profile in TSW, I'm certainly not going to bother doing it on the forum!

    I was actually staying out of this thread because, whilst I did think the initial promotion of the Oakville DLC sounded promising when they revealed the track map, I wasn't suckered into paying full price for the route at launch – and am unlikely to ever do so – so I thought it best left to the people who had actually experienced the route first hand (which I presume SA has).
     
    Last edited: Feb 29, 2020
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  7. jörgen Näslund

    jörgen Näslund Well-Known Member

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    Now that we know what he is like, I can only urge people to totally ignore him.
    Because that's what he wants attention. If he gets no attention he will quit.
    He loves to reply so we have to answer him. And he loves this.
    So let he be smelly air and ignored him (Both)
     
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  8. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I tell you what - if you ask me to leave the Forum - completely. Then I will do this for you.

    Just for you. Seriously - just say this - if that is what you want. And I will do this for you - because you are SPECIAL.

    But... if anyone (other than Factor41... obviously.....)..... asks me to return, by indicating this in a post in this thread, then I will return. And you will agree to start behaving a little more reasonably.

    How does that sound?
     
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  9. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    It is slightly surreal..... But it is funny what numbers can do to people... And how coincidence is interpreted... Now I think...maybe... that I understand that lightning is actually Google being displeased with us all for allowing cheesecake to be sold on Tuesdays. So no more cheesecake on Tuesdays... ;-(

    Although when I saw those numbers (following the deep and diligent research by that brand new member appearing today....).... I really did wonder - who am I..... really...? Am I really that Factor41 guy.....? LOL... ;-)

    I do apologise to you for being mistaken as me, because that's quite a horrific thing to be accused of.

    Anyway - I don't actually have the Oakville DLC (and if people criticise for me this, that would be a totally justifiable view to take) - but I was seriously thinking of buying it tonight. And possibly the DB BR 182.... and/or maybe The Baby Bullet.... but I will probably just settle on GRID, because I have learned that the AI might be a bit...um... SPECIAL... And it might be bearable with all assists off, Very Hard settings on, with full damage on, and on a wheel.... ;-)
     
  10. Random Railfan

    Random Railfan Well-Known Member

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    The fact that some people voted that "DTG didn't do anything wrong" is astounding. I mean they shouldn't have legal action taken against them or anything but the whole "sprawling industry" thing was pretty much a lie, since most of the industry in Hamilton is roped off and inaccessible without mods.
     
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  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I did wonder if it was churlish to include the option, especially since DTG themselves sort of apologised.... But I thought it was worth it, to allow happy DLC owners to show strength of feeling. But it also has a slightly difficult side-effect, because it could be considered that these votes are actually saying something like "We know that DTG uses very unrealistic language to describe their products, and there is nothing with this - please let them continue this as normal."

    I am not saying that this is what such votes actually mean - people can vote however they like, for whatever reason they like. But I note that some of the descriptive responses above say essentially the same thing - "Nothing to see here - at all" - and this is a perfectly reasonable point of view to take (although I do find it surprising).

    DTG said that they had just made a mistake. And some people accept this at face value. And it is their right to accept it at face value if they want to, even if you or I disagree with that.
     
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  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Apologies for reopening this thread, as it was descending into silliness, but I’d like to add this...

    The manual is still unchanged and the description of the route and the map included within it still gives the impression that the whole Hamilton area will be accessible to drive in.

    The second option in the poll is the only one where the description is factually correct at this time. Until DTG change the marketing materials, which include the manual, this will always be the case. I would hope they have a plan to do so soon, although it should have been done already.

    I’m still rather disappointed with it all. I may have bought the route by now if it wasn’t for this issue.
     
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  13. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    It looks like DTG have taken down the pre-release DevStream from YouTube - so there is progress on this.

    You now get this:



    (.....which, at time of writing is a blank screen showing that the video is now behind a "private group" wall.)
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2020
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  14. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    They may have taken off of You Tube but it is still up on their Twitch.
     
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  15. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep - you are right - it is still here:

    https://m.twitch.tv/videos/554541476

    Exactly the same file - with the expansive yards of Hamilton being described from minute 65.... Oh dear.
     
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  16. dani_alexa2003

    dani_alexa2003 New Member

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    [QUOTE = "Sam_Foster_IT / ICRR, post: 118602, miembro: 7830"] No creo que sea necesaria ninguna acción legal. Sin embargo, DTG realmente debería considerar sacar la ruta de la tienda Steam y volver a lanzarla cuando esté donde debería estar. En mi opinión, su plan de marketing y de negocios (especialmente para Oakville) es incompleto y debe investigarse. Los fanáticos de los simuladores de rieles de EE. UU. Están cansados de que se publique contenido de mala calidad a medio precio. Si esto continúa, estoy seguro de que perderán su base de admiradores y clientes, lo que finalmente provocará la caída de Dovetail Games (¡que no queremos que suceda (¡en serio!)!). [/ QUOTE]
    Ioomprado el dlc esta bien pero esss zonas nsda no te deja es una estafa bv dvt
     
  17. BigMountain555

    BigMountain555 Well-Known Member

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    They can take it down all they want, but the video lives on and is still accessible by other means. They need to rectify this properly and not pretend this did not happen. There are several copies of the video available.

    I still think that they should offer some sort of remedy to those who were duped by their misleading advertisements and still actually like the rest of the DLC.
     
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  18. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I think the key point is that.... by removing existing questionable marketing materials... that further people will not be misled. I think that once they have got the slate clean for new purchasers*, that it would then be fair to set a deadline for refunds for anyone that purchased OSD before they straightened it all out. So - it's not hiding evidence to take down the videos, in my view, it's just part of the necessary remedy for the "misunderstandings" that created this whole mess.

    You should be allowed to ask for a refund at any time, if there are any dodgy descriptions out there (which DTG put out there).

    *NB: There might not be many more new purchasers (for now) - I don't know this for sure, but I suspect that the bulk of sales for DLC (at the initial mega-premium price) happen on pre-order, and in the first week after release... although maybe sales through the back-catalogue dominate after a number of years.
     
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  19. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    THANKS TO DTG

    This Poll has been up for a week now, and it’s time to wrap it up. First of all, I would like to thank DTG for allowing this Poll to exist at all. Whatever you think about the Oakville DLC (and DTG), it would be fair to recognise that DTG, and especially the Forum Admins and Mods, have been exceptionally graceful in facilitating discussion on the potential to take formal legal action against their own company. This is, utterly awesome. In my opinion, this demonstrates that there is some very good reason to have some faith in DTG, despite a few recent mis-steps… and mis-leaps… and mis-leads…



    RESULTS OF POLL

    At time of writing, the results of this Poll, regarding the question of whether formal action should be taken against DTG are as follows: YES: 38 to 66 votes; NO: 38 to 46 votes

    The above numbers provide a theoretical range (given that people were given two votes), but I would interpret this range as: YES: 38 votes; NO: 46 votes (incl. 8 votes that suggested that DTG did nothing wrong at all).

    You could also argue that this could be interpreted as: DTG did something wrongful: 76; and DTG actions completely fine: 6

    I think that the most straightforward interpretation would be to accept that at least 76/82 (92%) of people voting thought that DTG mis-marketed the Oakville DLC, but of these 76 people, only 38 (50% of that group) thought that formal action should be taken.

    TURNOUT: You should note that the number of votes cast was 112, and that probably about 95 responded in total (assuming a range of 76 to 112). And you should bear in mind that this page, at time of writing had 1,591 views – so the number of people responding to this private poll is really quite low, as a subset of Forum members, which in turn is a small subset of all TSW users. This could be because the issue is DLC specific, even though voters did not need to purchase the DLC to take part in the Poll.


    WHAT HAPPENS NEXT?

    To find out what I am proposing to take forward, please read my next post in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
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  20. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    FORMAL ACTION AGAINST DTG ???

    I had committed, in this thread:

    https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/tsw-switching-in-the-subdivision.20694/page-12

    to take forward formal action against DTG, if this poll indicated strong support for such action. I will not, at this stage, be taking such action, and this is because:

    - broadly speaking, the support for such action was about 50/50;
    - the substantive responses to the thread (the discussion) were very strongly in favour of not pursuing action (although I accept that it is difficult for “YES voters” to put their head above the parapet and explain their votes, and become “a pariah” in a Forum filled with TSW loving enthusiasts…);
    - DTG removed the DevStream video on YouTube and on their Twitch account, presumably in recognition of the ongoing issue of misrepresentation;
    - DTG have substantively modified the manual on Steam, for the Oakville DLC;
    - my personal preference is to give DTG another chance to reform their approach to marketing, before I personally take action, even though the “Oh Canada” advertorial has not been amended to remove references to “expansive industrial trackage”.

    I would like DTG to note the strength of feeling expressed in this thread, and to bear this in mind when describing their products. Apart from anything else, it is my opinion that the misrepresentation of the Oakville DLC was entirely needless, and seriously counter-productive.

    DTG has made changes, to the overall marketing proposition for Oakville. This took a long time, but the ongoing issue has now been largely rectified. I believe that this is the action that Trading Standards would have asked them to carry out, had I made a report and asked for formal action to be taken.

    However: If the sort of misrepresentation of content as seen with the Oakville DLC is repeated, I will not hesitate to take further action. It would be a complete action, including pursuit of criminal allegations under the Consumer Protection from Unfair Trading Regulations 2008 (CPUTR) with respect to misleading marketing techniques, and action under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 (CRA) with reference to functionality of the TSW product, its completeness, and its fitness for purpose.


    Action You Can Still Take In Pursuit of a Refund (if necessary)

    If you are disappointed with the approach that I personally intend to take (by not taking formal action right now), but you would still like to take action, say, to recover a refund….. then read my next post, which provides you with support on how to do this, within the UK legal framework, if this is what you want to do.
     
  21. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Making a complaint about DTG to UK authorities about mis-marketing of Oakville (etc.)

    First of all, and especially with respect to the Oakville DLC, you should consider:

    - asking for a refund at Point of Sale, if you purchased the DLC; and/or,
    - making a complaint directly to DTG, asking for redress (especially if you have been refused a refund).

    But you don’t need to have even purchased the DLC at all, if you want to make a complaint.

    The complaints process
    The enforcing authority for trading standards issues, in the UK, is the “Local Authority” (local Government), and in the case of DTG, this is Medway Council, because DTG is headquartered in Chatham in the UK. If you make a complaint, they can take various actions, including (ultimately) taking DTG to Court (although you could also do this yourself, if you wish). However, the best process for reporting this sort of issue (in the UK) is to use the Citizen Advice Bureau (CAB) Consumer reporting issues reporting system. The webpage that includes a general overview is here:

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/Solve-an-ongoing-consumer-problem/

    To learn more about making a report to Trading Standards (which would then get passed on to Medway Council) you can get a better idea of the process here:

    https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/get-more-help/report-to-trading-standards/

    You can get involved in a web-chat from the above page, or if you want to make a report by telephone you can call: 0808 223 1133 (or +44 808 223 1133 from outside the UK*)

    And to actually make a written report (and this is the best option), you can fill out the CAB enquiry form here:

    https://ssl.datamotion.com/form.aspx?co=3438&frm=general&to=flare.fromforms

    Please note that I have already spoken to CAB about this issue (so that I can provide you with this guidance). If you make a report from outside of the UK, then they might want to check the jurisdiction – although it would be beneficial to make a written report anyway, as DTG is selling the same products to UK/European consumers.

    You do not need to leave your full address, but you must enter DTG’s proper trading name and registered address, which is as follows:

    Name of Trader: RailSimulator.com Limited T/A Dovetail Games
    Address: 3rd Floor North, Fitted Rigging House, Anchor Wharf, The Historic Dockyard, Chatham, Kent, ME4 4TZ, UK
    Telephone: N/A
    Email: enquiries@dovetailgames.com
    Web: https://live.dovetailgames.com/

    How to write a complaint
    If I were to make a complaint (about Oakville), I would probably test the complaint against CPUTR 2008, to stress test it to a criminal standard and which doesn’t require a purchase to take place. But the best legislation to consider (for anyone that purchased the DLC) is probably the Consumer Rights Act 2015, which covers broader areas than misrepresentation of products, and includes functionality. The legislation can be found here:

    https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/contents/enacted

    and you would want to look at Part 1, Chapter 3, sections 34-36, and the remedies in sections 42-45. This makes it clear that you will have a right to a refund, for various reasons. If you want easier to read guidance then look here:

    Consumer protection: https://www.businesscompanion.info/...ctice/consumer-protection-from-unfair-trading

    Digital Overview: https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/digital

    Digital Detailed Info: https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/digital/digital-content

    What to include in a complaint: You will need to describe what the wrongful action was. So you will need to describe in plain English what TSW is, how the DLC was marketed, what you would expect to get for your money, and how it fell short of the description (even if you didn’t buy the DLC). If you purchased the DLC, then you could also describe all the things that didn’t function properly, especially if you expected them to function properly.

    Medway Council
    If enforcement takes place, then this would be done by Medway Council. For completeness, I have included web-links here:

    https://www.medway.gov.uk/info/200178/businesses/450/medway_trading_standards

    https://www.medway.gov.uk/info/200178/businesses/450/medway_trading_standards/2

    However, I strongly advise you to not telephone Medway Council on the number indicated in the above two web-pages, as you will find it difficult to navigate the telephone system, and you will just end up going through the CAB process detailed above anyway. However, you could write to them for advice, here:

    consumer.protection@medway.gov.uk
     
    Last edited: Mar 6, 2020
    • Helpful Helpful x 3
  22. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    This thread, like quite a few of synthetic.angel 's threads, is pointless. You are seriously suggesting taking Dovetail Games to court. Wow.

    First of all in the incredibly unlikely case this goes to court, the case will be laughed out of the chamber in... 7 seconds? Give or take, maybe. This is a video game. An extremely niche video game. This so-called 'mismarketing' is a spanner in the works, certainly, but to fix it you don't need to close down the works and send it to court for breaching safety rules.

    If you want to show DTG how angry you may be, there's a very simple way to express this, and it won't cost you a fortune or be a complete waste of time... synthetic.angel, have you ever considered - wait for it - not buying more DLC from Dovetail? It works for a lot of people.

    Really, this is a complete overreaction, as others have said. There is no reason for a court case to even be considered.

    Get over it.

    My vote in the poll is actually to mute synthetic.angel so I don't see this user's threads. For others who find them annoying, attention-seeking or rude, I'd recommend doing the same.
     
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  23. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    No. I have made it clear that I am taking no action at all. DTG did everything that could be reasonably expected at this time, by removing the questionable marketing materials, in my opinion.

    There was no indication that DTG breached any "safety rules" at all. Nobody ever suggested this.

    It would not have been up to me to take the matter to Court (for a criminal case), had DTG decided to maintain a position that looked quite illegal ...to very many people. The worst case (probably) is that the matter would have been reported to Trading Standards, and the TSO would then have had a layered approach to enforcement. The first thing that the TSO would (probably) have asked DTG to do, would be to remove any misleading marketing materials. Of course, if DTG did nothing, then the TSO would have had the tools to take DTG to Court, if that was what was required, in their professional opinion, to resolve the matter.

    Nobody wants "the works" to close down. Everyone wants DTG to be a successful professional company. In fact, a TSO cannot shut down a company for breaching consumer protection law in the UK - it is not in their power to do this.

    I am not angry at DTG. I actually actively support DTG by buying a lot of their content. I'd like them to continue to provide awesome content, and to do it legally, honestly, and sustainably, for the rest of my life.

    I am over it - I was over it a long time ago. It was you that brought the thread back from the dead... Many other people are very angry though...... I put my head above the parapet to help them, because they asked me to do so. I am now potentially disliked by everyone, on all sides because of this.... but I don't care - I am not into popularity contests - I just want to see the reasonable thing done.

    For me, the outcome is that DTG now know for sure that they can't do another "Oakville" stunt. This means that when the utterly fantastic artists, creatives, developers and programmers are pushed by DTG management to something daft again - they have something to point to - the law. This is all meant to be helpful.

    Yes. Of course. Most people reading this are probably living in a democracy. For now, anyway.... ;-)
     
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  24. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    If you are taking no action, why did you give details on how to take DTG to court. You're less of a firestarter, and more of an arsonist with a fear of heat.
    Congratulations, you missed the analogy.
    If you're not angry, why did you create the thread in the first place?
     
  25. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well, you are entitled to your opinion. Even if your opinion includes attributing emotions to another person that you cannot possibly evidence. You are still entitled to your opinion.

    To answer your question - the thread was started as a "Poll thread", asking the question that it is in the title of the thread.. I started the thread to find out what people's opinions were. I did that by asking a question. I wanted to enquire as to what most people wanted and/or believed. That includes you, by the way. You are just as important as everyone else, and so are your opinions. That is, of course..... just my opinion.

    Please accept my apologies if my intentions were not clearly described from the outset, and for maybe misjudging just how much I could rely on the context of a "Poll" to convey meaning as to the purpose of the exercise. I will try harder next time, to spell it out more clearly.

    Maybe the people that designed the Forum format should think again, in light of your feedback. They should probably call the "Poll" system something like the "I wanna ask y'all something". I dunno - I haven't given that issue a great deal of thought. Maybe you should suggest something?
     
  26. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    I'm fine with you asking questions, but I see no reason for you to ask it - you're not even bothered by the issue at hand - and I do have an issue with you being rude to other members of the forum (upthread, before you ask).
    Eh?
     
  27. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for your kindness. I am very much relieved that I now have your permission to ask questions. I will try better to explain my reasons for asking them, in the future. Clearly my attempt to be clear about my reasoning this time was a failure on my part. I will review it, and seek to improve myself.

    If you have an issue with me being rude then I also have an issue with it. This is unacceptable, and breaks my own rules. I never ever seek out people to be rude to them. It is a hard rule of mine to not initiate any antagonism with other Forum members.

    I will, of course, defend myself. Especially if I am being accused of something that I haven't done.

    I also have views and opinions, some of which are unpopular, at times. And I am not always right. And I can often be persuaded, when given evidence that improves upon my learning to date.

    Sometimes, I might get attacked with considerable vitriol - and I try my best to only react to the substance of what is being said - if there is any substance being said. So - I am very sorry, but I can't see where you think I was being rude. Please let me know, as I need to reflect on it, and correct my behaviour, if I have done this. It is absolutely not my intention to cause a fence.
     
  28. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    I agree this thread may be a bit over the top but I have not found Synthetic angel to be rude to anyone certainly on this thread.

    But we do have these directed to the right honourable gentleman:

    Does he waffle on a bit? Yes, maybe. Does that justify calling him “crazy” or “having no life at all,” etc...?” Absolutely not and I think that’s disgusting.
    There is an ‘ignore’ button that you could use if you wish to no longer see synthetic angels’ posts and threads instead of making yourselves self-appointed administrators. The first 20 posts or so actually seemed like a reasonable discussion.


    My personal opinion on the poll. I’ve not got this DLC but my impression from reading threads about it, I’m somewhere in between option 1-3 camp although I don’t obviously think that they should be sued. But you have to be a real fan boy to have voted for the last option to say “DTG didn’t do anything wrong.”


    And no, I’m not the third account of synthetic angel. He can continue to preach about the BR155 (or whatever it is) and I’ll continue to moan about the HSTs (or lack thereof) ;)
     
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  29. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, you haven’t been rude at all. On the other hand, there are some posters on here who have displayed a very condescending attitude towards you.
    You are obviously a very passionate train enthusiast so you keep posting as much as you want and don’t let anyone drive you away from these forums
     
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think we should certainly be more respectful to each other, and I think that includes using the word "fan boy" as some kind of derogatory term.
     
  31. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well... I can certainly be slightly naughty at times.... ;-) More seriously - I will always defend myself. And that might involve waffling my way through it, especially if a "love bomb" is required to chill things down a bit.

    And to be absolutely honest - these Forums are the tamest sort of Forum that you could ever possibly imagine. Everyone here, at heart, is likely to be friendly, train-loving, passionate, inoffensive and possibly tending towards introversion in reality. I don't like making sweeping generalisations... but all I am saying - is that everyone here is relatively nice.....:)

    This isn't the sort of Forum that is frequented by gun-toting gang-land drug-dealing criminals. But.... I can do street as well, if required - having been raised in a fairly rough area of the neighbourhood. ;-O
     
  32. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    I don't think Olaf was being derogatory. The context here is a Forum for fans of train simulations. And I read "fanboy" as someone that is very passionate about the game, and has a great deal of respect for the game-maker, which might positively inform their view of the game-maker. There is an implied bias. And that bias is fine and it is completely natural and..... expected. Although I would say that there are also a few fangirls around here too.... ;-D

    As an aside - I have noticed that TS2020 has a whole class of module called "Rail-fanning" - and I don't think it is meant to be derogatory. I still find the term "rail-fan" to be a bit strange... as in my day the term was "train-spotter"... (now high-jacked by the community that are fans of C21-H23-N-O5)..... although I prefer the more affectionate term.. "gricer"... ;-)
     
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  33. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It probably wasn't meant that way, but it is also well known to be a derogatory term and can be used to de-legitamise someones views, and it has been used twice on these forums today from what I can see.

    Yes maybe fan-persons would be a better moniker.

    I assumed "railfans" was some kind of Americanism, I definitely prefer rail enthusiast, sadly train spotter seems to have been hijacked by the belittling brigade.
     
  34. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    I’m not apologising. Out of all the abuse in this thread, I can’t believe you’re actually going to have a go at me and no one else. IMO there are people on this thread who should be banned or put on moderation because it’s disgusting the way some people have behaved.


    There is a reason why certainly in the UK, some train drivers absolutely can’t stand train spotters, enthusiasts, fan boys, etc.... I can often see why!
     
  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I apologise if you thought I was having a go at you, I wasn't, but that was twice in as many minutes I had seen the word "fanboy" used, the other example was almost certainly meant to be a derogatory insult, I just think we all should stop using phrases like that.

    I have sometimes spoken out of turn, which I regret. I do know however that some outsiders look at forums like this and see the bickering and back biting which can often occur and give them a miss.
     
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  36. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Very well said. To be honest, I don’t think I’ve found you to be particularly abusive/rude (maybe abrupt though) but some of the people on ‘your side’ have been. No matter what side of the fence you sit on, we should all be condemning abusive behaviour when we see it and that’s what should be driven out of these forums.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  37. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    There was an argument upthread that seemed... interesting. Before you ask, it wasn't my own.

    PS: I don't particularly see how what I said that you quoted in your post was rude. Harsh, maybe, but it wasn't a personal insult, and it was arguably truthful.

    PPS: I have already press 'ignore' on their profile, don't worry.
     
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2020
  38. -PjM-

    -PjM- Well-Known Member

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    Regarding the recent posts about behaviour. On forums I always try to go by my think twice before you write and think twice again before you post. Since once it's out there the internet never forgets. It's quite cathartic to write a strongly worded view but not post it. :)

    Anyways since the poll is over and the main subject seems to have passed I thought I'd just ask about...
    Now I can probably see that some enthusiasts certainly being a bit too enthusiastic and others being a little... odd, but in general why would drivers have a problem with them? Or is it just the enthusiastically odd ones that irritate?
     
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  39. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    One wonders why folks produce blizzards of text on here instead of driving trains in the game.. that alone is food for thought.
     
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  40. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Well - there is another possible reaction to things like Oakville. One could do absolutely nothing. And I think most people do this most of the time, about all sorts of things that they care about. Life is short, and there is much to do, and maybe someone else will do something, or maybe they won't. Nothing much matters, in the end. The world will eventually be enveloped in the fires of a dying sun.... etc.

    I wrote a heck of a lot on this subject ("formal action") - because it was needed to explain the process. I made a commitment to take action if people wanted me to do this for them (if there was a clear majority to do this). There wasn't a clear majority. I also made a commitment to explain the process to make it easier for others to take action, if I personally took no action.

    In short, I made some promises. And I kept my promises. It would have saved a lot of my valuable time if I broke my promises. Or if I didn't care enough to make the promises in the first place. I know this sort of approach to life isn't maybe particularly fashionable these days, but I don't tend to follow trends. My bad.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2020
  41. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. That thing. Somewhere. In another thread. That place. Yeah. Where you - stuff. And people saw what wroted. And yeah. Like - wow. Interesting, eh...? People were - you know - man. Or woman. But maybe they. Could be. Or not. Don't know. You know..... what I mean? Interesting.... Hmmmm....

    Interesting. Yeah. That thing. Stuff. People and that. Maybe. Purple. Stuff. Yeah. You. Interesting. Stuff. Yeah.

    Yeah. Interesting. Happy. Jagged skies on water. Yeah. Sometimes, yeah. Seems like. You know..?
     
  42. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    images.jpeg-8.jpg
     
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  43. grahamsarea18

    grahamsarea18 Member

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    STOP IT!!! This poll question is not only rude but also it's ludicrous. You have every right to post it. But it doesn't make you correct for doing so. And just because dtg allowed it doesnt mean they are behind it in support. I LOVE dtg TSW 2020! Yes some products (dlc's) released need some tweaking once they come out. And some have major issues. That's the name of the game when programming/coding/designing highly detailed games like these. I wouldn't want to hurt their team in any way that might jeopardise them not being able to continue the insanely extreme work (release schedule) they give us. However I do understand and respect your frustration. And yes I do think they need to keep working on updates and/or patches to fix bugs and glitches on new and old dlc releases alike. But as a dedicated fan. I want them to know I love their work and appreciate everything they do for me. So I can have years of enjoyment.
     
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  44. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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