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[poll] Would You Pay More If The Riesa - Dresden Branches Are Included?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by jolojonasgames, Jul 22, 2021.

?
  1. No extra money

    51 vote(s)
    25.8%
  2. 0-2 euros

    2 vote(s)
    1.0%
  3. 2-5 euros

    15 vote(s)
    7.6%
  4. 5-7 euros

    33 vote(s)
    16.7%
  5. 7-10 euros

    45 vote(s)
    22.7%
  6. 10-12 euros

    22 vote(s)
    11.1%
  7. 12-15 euros

    13 vote(s)
    6.6%
  8. More than 15 euros

    17 vote(s)
    8.6%
  1. robbo2k

    robbo2k New Member

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    Boston i Brighton Now 30 USD
    BRD (full) Novemver for 20-30USD

    BTW: TSW2 have 3 routes for 30USD,

    DTG not incrase DLC price , only 29,99USD for 2 routes
    DTG have many money for 3 routes 29,99+29,99
    A fan Germany railway have full version Riesa - Dresden for 29USD does not have to pay 40USD for a British and American routes
    A fan of British and American railways does not have to pay 40 USD for a defective German route
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  2. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    All right, how about this: BRD is released as currently planned. However, later in the year DTG release BRD 2.0, with the branches, for 30 GBP or the equivalent. But anyone who has already purchased the truncated version, whether separately or as part of the bundle, can buy v2.0 for five pounds.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  3. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely, I’d even pay more for the upgrade.
     
  4. conniethunder

    conniethunder Active Member

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    ...maybe get it with another loco for the £14.99 price?
     
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  5. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I think that circles us back to route extensions a bit... sadly I believe if we don't get the branches with the release, they're gone forever.
     
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  6. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    solicitr's idea doesn't seem like a route extension. I understood it as an update for the original route, and you only have 2.0 to play, not 1.0 or 2.0.
     
  7. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    But at that point, it's basically a complete DLC replacement. I think both versions would have to exist and things would get pretty complicated for newcomers and people not watching the forums.
     
  8. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    When I said the bundle was more costly, I meant in relation to the original price. It’s just been increased so a further increase would be a smack in the face to a lot of players, a lot more players than would want the price increased again for the branch lines and accept that as a reason. DTG can’t make it work by increasing the cost of both the route and the bundle, even if the bundle is still less than the price of three routes individually, some people just aren’t interested in the German content. They won’t like a second price hike one bit.

    The bundle is good value but they can’t keep adding to the price to accommodate changes, especially specific changes to just one route. They may as well forget about the bundle price and sell each route individually at full price as do that but that would not go down well either, it would be a very bad decision all round.

    If they decide to return this route to its originally announced size then they have to do it without a price increase. That’s the decision they will be making.
     
  9. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    But that seems to be advantageous. People who don't want Dresden, or do but don't care about the branches aren't paying extra for the bundle. People who do want the branches pay extra.
    Possibly, but I think there's also a marketing benefit. It's the "Pro" version. Longer route, more scenarios, bigger timetable.

    Some have said they'd pay more than $30 for routes in general, if more time was put into them. This would be a great way to test the waters, and judge whether better routes could be profitable for DTG.
     
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  10. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    I did - sort of but I feared my original post was a bit too short to reflect that (it's actually quite stressful posting via a german smartphone because of the bl...dy autocorrect which interferes with every typed word multiple times) .

    In my opinion those extra development hours and therefore this extra investment should have been included in the project in order to raise the quality of the product.

    German content has now reached a state where it doesn't offer anything really new to the customer and is always the same experience (and not very realistic- I think we still have no existing german route where the actual timetable and service runs are fully represented). In contrast to that luckily UK and US content differ quite well here - but it leads to a state where we don't have any reason to buy new german routes because most of the content is already there anyway. Always the same stuff just running on another route is getting very dull. BRD had a chance to offer a unique experience which of course was in the need of more man-hours. I believe this would have resulted in higher sales and therefore would have made more profit as well- but unfortunately DTG didn't judge it that way and so we are getting the same experience as before.

    In another thread someone wrote that probably TSWs quality already reached its maximum. With decisions like that I fear this is clearly the case and we are getting A-B Dosto and Talent runs with sometimes a bit of ICE 3s in between over and over again.
    Those many users who wrote they would buy the season pass but uninstall BRD should be an alarm sign but I don't think this will be actually acknowledged. They had their chance with the BR101 and HHL as well but if the current state gives DTG the best output this will be all we can get..
     
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  11. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    That's not fair for DTG to spend a couple more months but not have any additional revenue to pay the developers for that time.

    In general, people pay more to get a superior product (or less for an inferior product). Why should DTG be expected to not charge more for something better?
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
  12. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The small numbers of people willing to pay more won’t balance out the huge number of people unwilling to buy at all because of a price rise. DTG lose money either way.

    If you take the whole episode with the development of this route and all the Rush Hour routes into consideration then you will see that they have already increased the prices to accommodate the extra time and the bundle will likely cease to exist after a short while with all three routes reverting to only their individual prices. This is the big promotional push for the year for getting new players into TSW and it’s been harmed a fair bit by this. DTG will already be relying on absorbing some of the inevitable losses incurred in this period and relying on long term sales of the routes to recuperate. They can’t damage it further with another price hike now (reducing sales further) but they could possibly absorb more short term losses and recover some lost sales (not as many as you would think though, not everyone deems the branches essential) by adding some development time to reinstate the branches. It’s not likely due to the losses involved but it creates less of a loss than more development time and a price increase. Higher prices equal fewer overall sales.

    The extra development time needed may be close to the whole development time for a DLC route, in which case it would be a very difficult decision to make, as the recouped sales now (with or without a price increase) would not cover the loss of a whole DLC’s sales. The extra time being taken now has likely reduced either the number or the scope of DLC for the year ahead, hence the price increase for the bundle and the time limited (not confirmed) bundle opportunity. Adding more time would be costly but not as costly as adding more time and a price increase.

    The most likely outcome is that things stay as they are because there is no clear way to change without losing more money.
     
  13. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Most people here have basically no idea what it means to develop a train sim DLC at all and stay profitable while doing it (and as a company, no matter what size, you need to stay profitable). I can't speak for DTG. They have their very own approach to be profitable. But i can speak for me and my estimations for TSW DLCs and how they will come out in regards to being profitable or not with the atcual price tags we have. The answer is quite simple: it is not profitable in any way yet. Period.

    Example? Ok. Lets say i am working about 6 months now on my first DLC, the G6 shunter. With two people. I can't tell you real numbers, and wont tell you. But i can tell you that. To get the needed revenue out of the product to stay on a 0, and with the actual estimated selling numbers, it will take 3-4 years to get the money i need from it, if it ever sells that long. Would you work 4 years to get money for only 6 month? And not even that. All your expenses you have to pay infront by yourself to being able to develop the DLC at all. When i then read all those comments, and the the prices are way to high for what you get, my motivation to do anything more than needed lowers more and more and is already below the magical line where you are exited to work on those things.

    You will ask then: "why the heck you are doing it then already...?". Because.... :)

    Just a different perspective ^^
     
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  14. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I think there are two different "higher price" discussions mixing here in this thread/forums recently:
    -The price increase of RH, on its own absolutely fine, the pack is still a bargain with a fair bunch of content and potential (Acela for NEC is a certain addition in the future). What got people furious was the combination of this with content cuts buried deep in the FAQ. In the end, the problem is probably more the way it was put than the thing itself. "Nahverkehr" Dresden still has basically the same scope as its TS counterpart, might not be bad, but it's the way it was promised to look and then secretly changed at the time of a price increase people don't like.
    -The overall price increase. Even inflation makes for that to be an inevitable thing and that has been going big in the last two years. The DLCs will HAVE to get a bigger price tag. People would probably accept that no problem IF the releases reflect it. Most importantly they have to be polished. Last year we've been told about autogenerating making it possible to create larger projects for the same price. Projects are the same size, quality often dropped even lower, for this I wouldn't like to pay more. On the other hand projects you've touched (most EMU sounds, big chunk of 101 etc) are a whole lot better in quality even if 101 so far offers not a great amount of gameplay because of HRR. With this quality of models, physics, sounds, etc. I would be fine with paying 20 euros for your locos. Granted that might not be everyone's opinion, but many would probably agree.

    These two versions of the topic got into a weird mixture recently and it definitely causes a lot of confusion. Hopefully your excitement recovers because your work so far has been stellar and I am looking forward to all three of your additions.
     
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  15. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    The best way forward for DTG is to stick to the existing Rush Hour release plan and simply ride out any negative fallout. There are certainly enough potential sales of the current bundle to make for a successful promotion. (The members of this forum are likely not representative of the entire player base, but rather a small, vocal minority.) A few months from now, especially if Rush Hour turns out well, we'll all be talking about new projects in the pipeline and our attention will be diverted to the next big thing. My attention is already fixed on Boston Sprinter and I'm hoping for some big news this coming week.
     
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  16. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    with a 146.0 (and a few of it's liveries) perhaps?
     
  17. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    It's how it always goes. The forums are outraged for a few days (though never as intensely as this time), and then the next shiny project comes along and everyone is excited again. I don't really mind it, I'm playing the game because I love it and what it can be, not to whine on the forums about branches being cut. It's a shame they're gone, but I'm afraid it's an unchangeable reality, better to move on. The last chance at hearing any news about it is in tomorrows roadmap stream, if by then the decision to not include the branches still stands it's probably 100% sure. If so, I strongly urge people to move on. I understand some are upset, and so am I, but there's truly no use in being upset with something you can't change. Buy it, or don't, but just do whatever makes you happiest.
     
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  18. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Frankly that's a dreary prospect for any fan of German rail. Offerings on that front appear to have stagnated, and one can at least hope that DTG take more away from this negative fallout than "just ride it out, they'll buy anyway."

    (For that matter, how can Rush Hour "turn out well" since we already know that 1 out of 3 routes will be subpar, even before the inevitable bugs and glitches are exposed?)
     
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  19. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    As I've said more than once elsewhere on the forums, I do not, by any means, discount the disappointment of fans of the Dresden route. But, as far as any of us knows, it's done and unalterable. If this had happened to Boston Sprinter, if,say, the Stoughton branch had gone, I would have been very miffed, I would have expressed my displeasure and reassessed my purchasing decision. But then, I would certainly have moved past it.
    Rush Hour can still be good. A truncated Dresden can still be well modeled and worthwhile as a route. I agree there's a "sameness" about the German dlc that probably won't be changed with this release. On the other hand, I've never gotten a lot of sympathy or support when I've complained about the paucity of NA content over the past year or so. I guess we all have to take what we can get and take everything else in stride. Life is like that.
     
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2021
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  20. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    But you do realize it's only a 4-mile branch with two stations (Canton Center and Stoughton)?

    Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the Stoughton branch has been added to the Boston/Providence route.

    Yet it's not a fair comparison. Dresden lost 22 miles, with 4 times as many stations as the Stoughton branch.

    (I'm not miffed at all. I'm just kind of sad and disappointed at the Dresden loss.)
    It just won't be the spectacular route that it would have been.
     
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  21. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    As Cathcart shows, even a very short branch can add a fair amount of variety.
     
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  22. FeralKitty

    FeralKitty Well-Known Member

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    Exactly! The Neilston and Newton lines even have more stations than the removed Dresden branches have.

    Cathcart is more of an apples-to-apples comparison, and Dresden would have had more variety, too.

    If anyone else would have been disappointed if the Cathcart lines were removed, please lobby for the Dresden branches to remain! (I prefer to remain optimistic for a solution until this becomes moot.)
     
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  23. Nozomi329

    Nozomi329 New Member

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    I would kindly remind you that this is one of the poorest way a vote could be designed. Or if it has to be like this, use 0<price<=2.
     
  24. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    It was intentionally done like this, for the sake of simplicity, and because the 'border numbers' like 10 would probably be named by most people, so rhey can now choose 10 but absolutely no higher (7-10), or 10 or maybe a little more (10-12). I understand that for a mathmatician or someone working a lot with excel it's an eyesore, but it gets the job done just fine while being as simple as possible (more simple means less effort for the voter, and with that more voters, even if it is a marginal difference).

    However, a slider would be best, but only this style of poll is available.

    That will be all about the poll itself in this thread :).
     
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  25. conniethunder

    conniethunder Active Member

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    What if I was a millionaire and wanted DTG to be the best developer in the market?
    Could we have a £100,000 option?

    Sorry for being silly, but as someone related, you're going to get what you're going to get when 'they' want to offer it to you.
    It really is just a half glass full/half glass empty 'scenario'. Take it or leave it.
     
  26. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, that's how the world normally works and it works well so far. But not in a train sim environment (speaking of the people who are in it ^^). Train fans are a quite special species :)
     
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  27. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Interesting to read. Maybe it is better we do not know how much you invest in the G6. Assume is is one men year and retail price is Euro 14, which included VAT, say 20%. As a developer you maybe will get Euro 3 (optimistic estimate). Taxes, steam, and DTG will need the rest. My also optimistic guess of the cost of one developer is Euro 80k in a year. This would requires sales of at least 27k license if you sell it at full price. Many more if discounts are given. Not I did not include all external costs, so in reality we may need to double sales to start making a profit. You cannot just do this to develop a single DLC, you only can make a decent living once you create a more or less constant stream of DLC, contract work and so on.

    If you want to be rich, don't try this yourself :(

    I think DTG does it this way: when they want to do a new DLC they make an estimate of the sales it may generate. Based on that they calculate a budget and this budget is the target for Matt. He can't spend more than this budget. There also is a deadline to keep the company alive. You cannot postpone release to often. That's why the BR101 did not get a cab car and that's why branches were cut from Riesa.

    The Rush Hour update really is a bargain, by doing it smart and blowing sales to the max, they can make it this cheap, you get a value of Euro 90 for Euro 40 which is quite good even with the increased price. We simply must pay for the delay and to be honest, I think it is not unreasonable we get a great core update which is really big so I will happily pay the full price for Rush Hour even if I am not 100% excited about the routes (there is no Dutch route included :(). If this drives up the active customer base, it would be great, we all benefit from that.

    Maybe a last point. If you look at the world stats of the steam achievements, you see only say 10-20% of the player base is actually playing the game frequently. The rest bought it and does not use it. This seems to be normal, but if DTG can seduce 5% of the players to buy one or two additional DLC in a year, this would make a big difference.The major issue is how you reach this player base. The will not read these forums, they will complain if train does not drive away for some stupid user mistake and so on.
     
  28. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    You say only 10-20% of players play the games frequently, if I was DTG I would try to address this. My hunch is that not enough of peoples' favourite routes and/or loco's are being made. I would say there are more people disappointed in this than are happy. For me it is only getting a third of the GWE and no class 117 and no RD support. Many people on these forums have their own disappointments.

    You say Rush Hour is a bargain, only if you are interested in the routes. I'm only interested in one of them and it is normal price for a route so not such a bargain for me or others that just want one of the routes. I also think lack of trains is a factor, look how long we have and still are waiting for the class 313 and other trains. People want variety as well..

    People complain for many different reasons and I'm sure DTG would rather people complain on the forums than not bother at all as it has the potential to engage the customer and once involved they might buy something no?
     
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