Discussion in 'Train Sim World Discussion' started by dcnine#5410, Jul 21, 2021.
Ok, than Goodby TSW and Dovetail I will Deinstall tsw and wait for rail sim 2021!
Watch where you go with that one.
Plus there is a massive difference between that and liking a game.
However there is a lot more discontent than I've ever seen personally.
I would have no problem paying extra for a route that has something extra (fast line, slow line and total of three branches, including the Grossenhain branch), even if it were postponed.
In its original promised form, the route was going to be a flagship of TSW, finally a pretty much complete route in terms of activities after you've announced the 363 switcher. Now it's going to be more of the same.
I am still going to watch today's Q&A stream and every preview of the new route, but the experience is going to be affected by this fiasco and as a result, I will most likely not buy the routes. The quality would have to be a big surprise at this point.
I don't want this to be a failure, I still love the game, which is why I want every route and train to be the best it can be. But this is too big a pill for me to swallow at this time.
If my post came across as insincere that was not my intention. Although it might be hard to believe, I do understand your frustrations.
The community response to the preserved collection did indeed assist in getting it added to TSW2, and you are correct it was a success. Please keep providing your feedback, as you know how valuable it is. We are making sure that you are heard.
I do not want give you a false promise and say that the route will be delayed to add branch lines. Because at this moment in time, it's not.
Jinoss17 I have removed your post for calling other users names. Don't forget everyone is allowed a difference of opinion.
DTG - Avoiding poor experiences by delivering poor experiences. When will you learn as a company to not promise things you can't deliver?
It was and it did become hugely successful but it's a different situation. That was about content that players had already paid for, there was concern that old DLC would be left behind. The benefit has shown up for itself, new content and features are making their way to previously released routes.
This situation however is about stuff that is still in development - I'm not saying DTG are in the right here, they've made some poor marketing decisions here and need to seriously work on their announcement game as this now is a right dog's dinner. I also think this shows that their transparency approach needs some adjustments - show what routes are in development but don't confirm the stock or extra details until they are set in stone 100% and especially don't put it on a digital store so early. The branch lines were on the Steam description and players who caught that are now expecting DTG to deliver it which is understandable. If the branch lines were ONLY on the roadmap and taken off there, fair enough it's an insight into the route development. Combine this with the price increase and of course all hell will break loose.
I just hope anymore announcements they make are going to be along the lines of these ones...
I still think the price is reasonable - 3 routes for £34.99? Still fair enough. DTG just need to slow down when it comes to setting out these details. When Spirit of Steam comes about, they need to wait until a release date announcement to set the price, you know when the content is more or less near completion.
Yeah the price is still fair, but I have to say, even if the branches had never been announced I would still be dissapointed. The end result is the same, another A - B German mainline with all trains being ones I already own, Riesa - Dresden without branches just isn't that interesting (to me at least), as we already have 7 routes like it, with the same rolling stock (aside from liveries).
I voted that I would rather see the release postponed if that meant the branches would be included.
If that simply can’t happen for any reason then there’s no point getting more angry because they won’t sway under the small amount of pressure from the forum. Postponing would have already been considered as an option before the announcement and considered a great deal.
There could be any number of reasons why the branches have been removed and why it can’t be postponed to add them back. It may not be technically possible. We may get a full answer in the stream, we might just get the general reasons that we have already been given.
It may be that the route could never work on base consoles with the branches included, in which case postponing would have no benefit. It may be because the complicated signalling at Dresden just didn’t work and there is no fix for it, postponing would take it out of the Rush Hour bundle until a fix was engineered and that's just not an option. It could be that sub-contractors making the scenery have gone bust. It could be anything. It could just be that the amount of money spent on it can’t be increased (which would happen if more work was done on the route) because it would never be recouped with projected sales figures, and it impacts too much on the next project. That’s not going to be changed by the community asking for it to be, because DTG need to make money to survive. It’s likely that they overstretched themselves to start with because they wanted to further the game and its features and reality has struck due to an issue, or a number of issues.
We have to be realistic. The decision has already been made and is unlikely to be changed. Some of us looked at the plans for the route and said to ourselves “that’s never going to work on a PS4” and made plans immediately to upgrade to a PS5. To release it on a PS4 it has to work on a PS4. That may not be the reason the branches have been removed but it wouldn’t surprise me. I’ve asked the question for the stream. If it is the case, no amount of postponement and no amount of community input will change it.
There is still a chance it could, if the reasons aren’t technical, and continuing feedback is what they need, not people saying they are done with DTG and throwing toys out of the pram, which is what’s happening with some people. Pretty much every member of the forum is in agreement that they don’t like the decision and most would accept a delay to have the route at its best but it may not be possible and we will have to live with that.
They will never add it after as the services would need to be written etc. You’ve more chance of a ufo turning up in a route..
it did, none the less going back and having another pass to ass more branch lines has never and unlikely never will happen
I simply have a hard time understanding how DTG works in respect to marketing. I seem to remember (and it was said in a thread as well), that it was DTG itself, highlighting the branches as one of the outstanding features of this route. It was said and advertised to the community, hence, you would recon that it would be one of the highest priorities to deliver on these promises?! I really do feel sorry for the people who have to sell it to us, now. However, from a company perspective its a hole DTG has dug themselves. Its a disaster and it really does make me worry about the future of TSW, as, for me, its a clear sign that things are not under control at DTG. I would really like to still be able to play this game in a couple of years time from now on.
For me, personally, this route would never have been on my radar, without this argument. As a mostly German content player, TSW fills a niche for me, as we have another simulator available to us, which is derived from a professional train simulator, used to train train drivers (which is usually my main focus). This product is spectacular close to real procedures and general handling of trains etc. However, it lacks the immersion I am able to get from TSW. I mainly enjoy being able to move around freely and change trains, whenever I want. As such, I enjoy driving trains to a final stop, and turn them around, which is exactly why this argument has sold this route to me. With it gone, I am completely undecided.
I am going to watch the stream tonight and I will not make a decision on buying or not until it is released and I have seen what it is delivering in the end. But I must say, that I am also deeply disappointed by the cut of the branches.
Trust me, a plain old delay would've been a far better PR blunder to fall into then anything they've done in the past 24 hours. No delay has ever been taken as badly as a rushed product, they're temporary after all, but a bad product lasts forever.
The route is already delayed with the addition of the season ticket. Postponing it to avoid removing the branch lines would produce a lot of goodwill (even if this one route got released in the fall instead of the summer).
Removing the branch lines would be delivering a poor experience.
Please consider taking a bit longer to deliver what makes this route so special. Thank you.
I REALLY don't think you do. It's not a shortening of a route, it's not a few miles of track. You are offering a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT EXPERIENCE to the one advertised. A central hub station and several routes and options from there is a new and exciting concept, that many of us were extremely keen on.
This is the product I was looking forward to.
The product you are now offering is another German point to point route. We have many of these available already. I defend DTG regularly and forcefully, but in this case I'm afraid you've absolutely stepped on a b*llock.
Perhaps I could offer a similar substitution myself? Instead of the traditional £24.99, I will offer to make a payment in the form of two tins of chopped pineapple and a pdf copy of my upcoming novella?
No? Is that because that's absolutely different to what you're asking for?
How inconvenient for you. Oh well, I won't be changing my offer.
Throw in a packet of chilli heatwave doritos and you have a deal.
All TSW content is poor experience and performance Specially on Consoles even on a Series X.
So it having nothing to do as Excuses why the Branches removed
The people actually working on the game in DTG need to ask themselves an honest question…
Am I proud to stand by Riesa-Dresden after what was promised to the community - Does it deliver on our vision?
If the answer is ‘Yes’, they should ask themselves the question again. It’s the wrong answer.
If the answer is ‘No’, they really need to push back hard internally.
I’m fairly confident this decision has been forced upon the development team and is not a decision the development team has taken themselves.
If it is a decision the development team have taken themselves, I’d be really quite shocked. Why remove the best aspects of the route? Are you a true rail enthusiast or what?
You don’t hear US remember Wrong Dostos with terrible Excuses, same goes for Missing Cab Car on Intercity and now don’t Postponed Riesa Dresden for the 2 branches
If ~170 voters can't persuade them, maybe money can.
I don’t think money will make a difference. The number of us here that will genuinely not buy Rush Hour Is tiny compared to the overall player base that doesn’t use the forum or watch streams and will be totally unaware of what has happened.
This is disappointing to say the least. If this was my company I would be very concerned that a product got to the point of being advertised in store with a particular specification and then having a major part of that specification removed. Then, at the same time the price being increased. It sends out a terrible message to your customers. Give us more and we will give you less!
Personally I thought £24.99 was too cheap in the first place and would have paid the extra happily but not sure I would now.
This has long been an issue for me with DTG/RSC routes going back to the early days of Rail Simulator. You get point to point routes but rarely any branch lines or connecting lines, there are the odd exceptions. I think especially in TSW where you have the ability to ride on the trains and walk around the virtual world, the ability to interchange at junction stations and mainline termini is something TSW hasn't really took advantage of, you don't feel you are part of a network.
I get that, however the forums users are able to give feedback, and if all 172 people who voted 'yes' didn't buy 1 route at rush hour, it would be £4298.28 less.
I don't want anyone to have to do this, and I doubt any of us would (frankly it shouldn't have to be this way), but if it comes to it we can make ourselves heard.
The sad thing is, I really don’t want to cut off my nose to spite my face. I do really enjoy TSW 2 and DTG has taken onboard plenty of community feedback. I’m just fed up of being kicked in the teeth when it comes to delivering a half-arsed DLC. Charge us more. Deliver us more. Whatever. Just don’t knacker a route because of a self-imposed deadline.
I agree with matjamca .Its no different in principal to the following
British Airways buys the new Boeing missing a tail plane, autopilot, livery (Don't worry, you should be ok)
Bombardier provide you a new train with 1 carriage that has no seats and a drivers door on the roof
You buy a new BMW (god knows why you would) and it comes minus a seatbelt and only running on 5 cyclinders with Japanese sat nav. We'll get an update out to you when we can schedule it around all our new builds.
You buy a shower of excrement and its missing the excrement ... That one doesn't quite work
I fear Dovetail games will rebrand underground as the Del boy train game
"He haven't got the branches back yet have we sir?"
"No Del we 'avent."
The Livestream get Hijacking today if Matt not say that they included the Branches after all this Backlash.
They can finally proof there word that they listen and heard the Feedback and Critics.
I presume most people here will be watching the stream then?
I'm personally just sitting on the sidelines until then. Because you gotta save energy for the chaos that's bound to ensue.
No need to hijack anything, just watch the stream and listen to what they have to say.
I'll just be looking for Matt in a faux fur jacket tonight with a cap and Sam to say ""Del, let's just get out! Before I wake up with a bloody horses head on me pillow!" (its a famous quote from the series just in case there's anyone sensitive here)
I'm sure they will do great as they always do keeping things in check. It's all a big shame but lets see what they have to say.
Yeah, I'll wait with writing my personal and detailed rant until after that stream.
Well I think it is extremely unlikely anything will change now especially as we don't know the reasons behind this volte-face, disappointing as it is.
I strongly advise against "highjacking" the stream. The mods have very clear rules of engagement about letting people have their say and move on. Organising a sustained complaint of the same thing over and and over again will result in action being taken.
Just to be clear the moderators have no great pleasure or desire to sanction people but we have directions from the top and the tools to do so if they are disrupting the stream.
I know a lot of people are fed up with the same few people asking the same question repeatedly and then when challenged changing the wording subtly. It's going to be a very busy stream and people will not necessarily get an answer from the DTG presenters due to the volume of questions submitted in advance and the ability to read chat that will no doubt be moving quickly..
If you "hijack" the stream then others won't get their question answered and will then be complaining.
So the solution in in the viewers hands.
Why do you want to force us to watch a stream to get answers? Not everyone wants to do that, for whatever reason.
You understand it, but don't want to change anything? This means nothing other than that you do not care what is written here. Stop telling people to express their opinion when it doesn't interest you at all.
Sim Rail will smash tsw and dtg
It could do that but we would have to wait and see
Yes because DTG are renowned for their quality - I take it DTG are satified for "meh, it works" and are unable to push the boat out?
DTG need a competitor in this scene - they can get away with murder until that happens. Theyre clearly in over their heads and have no idea what to do. Nat, abandon ship while you can. TSW is a failure on almost every level since its release 4 years ago.
TSW is ironically a trainwreck
This is just simply sad... there is so much wrong with this statement (and I don't blame you, Nat, this probably comes from above).
1) Why are you (DTG) unable to postpone it? It is only and purely up to you when you release it. We don't force you.
2) It is not just the cutting of the branches that is the dealbreaker. It is the fact this information was covered up as much as possible and came TOGETHER with a price increase. Staggering the releases might be a good thing, the price increase was to be expected, but this cocktail was a recipe for disaster.
3) This point has been mentioned already by some people, but how do you avoid delivering a poor experience by throwing a potential best route right into the generic pool with all the rest? This decision CREATES a poor experience.
Overall I have not seen any good defence of this decision. But I see the forums burning in a way I have never seen (and trust me, there have been crazy times in the last year). So maybe it would be worth a shot to get whoever decided to cut these (I expect it to be some "executive manager") on the stream tonight and let THEM defend this decision.
I know we're talking about "just" 23km of one route, but the way this was (or rather wasn't) presented to us... is catastrophic. And the justification quite honestly pathetic... constantly revolving around deadlines that could easily be changed. You still have a chance to do the right thing, last year you took it, take it again.
Afraid for overstretching and delivering a poor experience , but plenty of time to add a new platform with all complexities that introduces... could accept this if more bugs are fixed timely, SEB and Clinchfield still need a lot of rework, but this really is poor performance and I please note I supported DTG for a long time despite all broken promises.
I had a post like earlier from November 2020 where freight exchange was highlighted as an issue. We’re in July 2021. Name another product where a fix takes 9 months and is still not delivered.
Why not create 3 amazing rush hour routes that release in full a few weeks, even month or two later. Adam keeps talking about all the fixes his team can’t get a release window for, give him the limelight, push the preserved fixes out and let him get them off his to do list into the market whilst you develop
I fear this will be another “we messed up stream” like the quality one (ironically enough) with all the “we recognise we need to do better” messages last month
Maybe you should just organize a labor strike then? Surely the moderators are also passionate about this issue and can organize together to just not moderate tonight.
Bakerloo Console Fixes are up there ain't they?
If they are going to say 'We'll listen better to you next time', that will be the third time they said it, and that will be the straw for me as it means there is no growth or improvement in their policies.
I will firmly hold on to my opinion that we are giving them a chance to prove they do listen and care by delaying Riesa - Dresden and reintroducing the branches. If they don't do that I will know that them saying they listen doesn't mean that they care.
Sidenote: we're at 220 people now, come on DTG you know we want this.
They know we want it.
They've known all day today & for half of yesterday.
They (the higher-ups) seemingly just choose not to bother their-
Edit: The number is at 222 now. We have a Voyager people!
You need another stream/straw for that? How sincere are these words to begin with? They apologized and said they will do better, listen more and focus more on the customers. Well to me this announcement yesterday shows the absolute contrary, all that has happened goes against what most of the audience want/expect, as evident from the polls and overall amount of feedback/interaction here. I mean I've been on the forums when a couple of disasters happened (SEHS, IC Cab Car, Dostos/Loco headlights) and this time there is the biggest uproar I have seen on here.
The uproar is getting worse with every incident (and the incidents are getting worse too), not a good pattern to see.
Well everyone it's stream o'clock!
Were just getting excuses
The problem is that I would love to "vote with my wallet" and not purchase the german route, but because of the pricing model, buying 2 of the 3 routes is more expensive than buying all 3, so DTG will not see the discontent reflected in sales. Awful decision and DTG has always had excuses, getting tired of it.
Separate names with a comma.