…Doesn’t seem to be getting any love whatsoever in the three week programme of “Reveals” in the run up to Christmas. We have 95% TSW, plus one footnote for the tram game that no one wants to buy or play and the VR game which is still derived from TSW. If they have decided to rest TSC, then at least have the courtesy to let long standing customers know, rather than the wall of silence that currently seems to prevail.
If you're ignoring the freeware and third party scene, you're missing the whole point of the game. Whereas in TSW community has just started with a stripped down editor, conditions were the same from the beginning in RailWorks, for community and DTG. So we don't need DTG DLC. I've added 30+ new routes in the last week and hundreds of superb locos. Yes you can freely even walk in some hungarian locos due to a clever script. Poor old TSW getting more and more broken with each "patch". Scenery looking the same everywhere. Horrible metallic blue atmosphere. Rotem cars no lights anymore - thought it was my mod, no DTG broke it. 3rd parties taking years to make a 104 or 47 IKB. Frankly laughable. I just had a fantastic trip to Balaton in TSC, with life everywhere trackside. Not sure what the problem is. The game works. The content is infinite. Next stop is the HUUUGE LAV Iberia route I've just installed. Bozemann Pass also freshly acquired.
Appreciate that Pete, but thinking more of the core than in house DLC. Loosely following the beta forum evident that things seem to have stalled, with what development staff they have shifted across to TSW and now VR. Catan and the Fishing also seem largely abandoned.
That's true, but frankly I've followed development and the game is in a state where further patching risks breaking everything. Thousands of routes and locos are depending on certain things to work as they do. Like Maik said, there's a difference between 0 and 0.000000000016 that can break everything. Roll back to v75.8a and you have the definite TSC version. It's a working platform and plays all content well, DTG not needed anymore which makes life better. Expect nothing and enjoy the most versatile train sim which will never ever get a successor - it's too big and commercial circumstances have drastically changed in the last ten years. No commercial dev can reproduce the amount of content - specialised sims are the way today, and DTG are pretty much alone as devs together with Rivet (which is all their fault, they've waited too long releasing the editor). All the rest is adding bits and pieces slowly, not like TSC where hundreds of third parties are (still) contributing all around the globe. I feel sorry for TSW folks constantly having to beg for new locos and fixes. I'm sick of stooping and begging from DTG. TSC is independent. My asset folder now holds 817 providers. (Who's that "NorthernWarrior" btw?) TSC is anything but poor.
I would concur. I now have more routes than I know what to do. I have plenty TSW content which just never gets played. Too much rinse and repeat content for me. I love the tremendous variety and length of immersion TSC brings. Have I spent too much money over the last few years? Yes but do not regret it. Have I spent too much on TSW? Yes and wish I could trade in for some of the TSC smaller rolling stock DLCs.
While I enjoy TSW, TSC is still my favourite for all the reasons mentioned above. The 3rd party scene is really quite active at the moment, AP are pushing forward with nice features (AI Horns are really nice) which they apply to existing stock for free. TS Rolling Stock are putting out really nice wagons at a good price, and there is a lot more - I still haven't explored much outside of the UK yet. I'm finding so many new scenarios that I've got more than I can ever play and with the variety in stock and liveries they are far better than those in TSW so I'm not missing the timetable which for me is basically just running the same thing over and over. Do agree with OldVern though that it would be nice to know DTG's standpoint. I think many of us assume that core development is finished but until they actually say so, there is still that glimmer of hope. It seems a bit odd that the current beta came out, broke a load of stuff and there has been no statement since.
I've fired up TSW just to update my mod for the community, saw they broke the Rotem cars, now I can laugh about it because it doesn't concern me anymore. JT's WCMLoS is nice, but still suffers from TSW core issues, lighting (JetWash addressed the missing street lights), insta derailments, poor distant scenery (except LIDAR hills) and those ugly trees. I prefer the TSC version by miles, having all prototypical stock for the line and more colourful vegetation. The TSC core update came out of nowhere and nobody expected that (the most important change to allow massive routes, 64bit, was also not anticipated). It's somehow a miracle it worked out, if it weren't for the last release. I do not want to let DTG touch anything anymore, we know where it ends - a broken mess called TSW. Download 75.8a depot, copy it over and you're done. Beta issues fixed. AMD users cap your framerate via driver. All we could do is make DTG revert the TSC depot to 75.8a officially, but they never reply to my calls, Steve is gone. So I gave instructions how to do it yourself, also trying to convince Richard Armstrong to push DTG to revert to 75.8a (which fixes dynamic rain issues again). But don't overestimate his powers opposing a stubborn company. DTG are masters in sitting out problems until everyone's tired and just accepts it. Their community managers can't be blamed, as they don't know nothing they're not supposed to know. Count one and one together, put yourself in the position of DTG's CEO after Focus called a meeting, telling you to expect better numbers, and ask - what's our benefit from investing manpower into core development of an old game engine that is prone to break content? Loyal playerbase being happier? No, just sell our DLC and fund TSW with it, where in turn we can sell broken stuff to Gen 8 console players (chicken and egg problem). v75.8a is exactly the game I wanted. It's the most stable version ever. Phase 3 proved to be more problematic than everyone thought, and some higher up was giving the "Stop!" command.
The one nice thing about the JT WCMLoS is the Class 86 they are making which looks a lot better than the old RSC version. With the EP pack the RSC loco is quite good but its like comparing the RSC Class 87 and the AP Class 87.
Yeah sure, but if you love that loco there isn't any reason to use the old RSC version any more. And TSC can display the same model quality, just without UE reflections.
TSW doesn't have the AP Class 37. Have you seen the poor ROG 37 in TSW? The cab looks horribly bland and "gameish" (and child objects like window frames are swaying independently from the body model.) A rain storm hardly gets your windscreen wet in TSW. And so on. The only reason I bought the TSW WCMLoS was that they were using AP sounds.
I don't like the TSW Class 40 as the front does not look tight. I don't like the 47 as the raised surround to the cab and door windows is too prominent and having done an excellent BR Class 101 is TSC they just changed its shape in TSW.
Yep, there's something a bit off with the foliage in the newer routes at the moment, feels rather cartoony/samey using the same weird looking trees. The earlier routes such as NTP, GWE, ECW had a rather more realistic rendering of foliage. Just feels a bit bland driving the newer routes in TSW unfortunately. The sim needs something like AI delays/temp speed restrictions etc to inject more playability really as well.
To my eyes TSC looks more natural. Kuju laid the base with a highly extensible game engine, DTG added features, and AP fixed the lighting. Greetings from Hungary, from a nice freeware route MAV 70. DTG are recruiting talents, so don't expect any serious freeware there. Result is a Mildmay line stub sold commercially. I find it way more easy to memorise landmarks in TSC due to the smoother rendering and clearer distant scenery. In TSW every place looks the same, Niddertalbahn still being a lonely example how to use varying foliage. (And DTG don't pay the work so stuff like this had to be made under Maik's responsibility and financial risk.) And we can easily do this in TSC and even add SSAO (Ctrl+Shift+F2) on the fly to make old bland textures look better by adding corner shadows. TSW doesn't even have a Contrast/Gamma option lol.
I'm afraid that at this point in time, working on TSC is a thankless job. They did improve a good number of things over the years, with adding x64 and making it compile on current environments. So the wins are small but the mistakes our loud. Same about content creation, really. Integrating public offerings and upgrading old stuff could be useful. Many other long standing games - Trainz, Truck Sims, WoW do that. Like the workshop, it could guide players to enjoy the best this game offers. Some AP stuff as DLC. Like how Skyrim had the high fidelity pack at one point. There could be potential in updates yet, but most of them might be edge cases. Busy scenarios can still cap at 20-30fps simply because of calculating AI stuff (pause and frames go to steady 60). Same about graphics. Making these parallel, calculating frame 2 state while rendering frame 1 could generally improve frame rates by 50-90%. And then there is the issue of replacing the entire UI because unsupported. I guess the game doesn't make much money anymore. Like the sub itself is extending the offerings instead of replacing them, because it doesn't matter I guess. The next natural step would be going open source, but I think the game doesn't make too little money to get there.
I can only agree with everything Spikee1975 has said here. I had some hopes for TSW 5 and I will still say that Frankfurt-Fulda was a great effort. But that´s the whole problem with TSW: I am amazed at getting a full blown German route like Frankfurt-Fulda, because the bar is beeing set lower and lower in TSW now. I was having these thoughts when the new gameplay packs released yesterday. Super underwhelming if you ask me. A christmas train, a few new services on Frankfurt-Fulda with same old stock and some kind of wagon for WCMLS. If you did this in TSC, people would be laughing, but in TSW this counts as some kind of great new pack. Furthermore routes seem to be getting shorter and shorter now. No matter if it´s the "half" north london line, the very small Cardiff Network, Mannheim to Kaiserslautern or the ATS route not going all the way from Crewe to Manchester. It´s always the same story and if you would have attempted routes like this in TSC, the community would have gone wild.... but in TSW world they seem to have developed some kind of Stockholm Syndrome with DTG, defending everything they do like crazy no matter how short, boring or uninspired it may be. The new "features" of TSW are also all very underwhelming. I keep thinking of what could all be done with this game... I always thought it was setting out to be bigger and better than TSC. A new gameplay pack here, some route hopping and foto mode there....and everybody is chearing. I can understand that DTG keeps setting the bar lower and lower and takes the "easy" money from people. Hot take from me: I think DTG are pretending TSC does not exist, because they don´t want people to know it exists.... they want to keep doing, what they are doing with TSW and not more players to find out about TSC. Because more people would start comparing the route lenghs etc. and asking questions.
i planning on getting bozeman pass soon ..i have downloaded a few good steam workshop routes ,there are a lot of good scenario on there too so i have plenty to do in TSC .i ve bought most of the US and Canadian. Freight passenger routes still have a few more left since im unhappy with the stance DTG has taken with US freight in TSW , have some UK stuff now i Got WCML for TSC in last sale for 12.99 it s longer and better than TSW 5 one and got the freightliner class 66 with TSC version
I'm happy that dtg have left it alone! There's so much 3rd party content I doubt I'll ever get thru it all in my lifetime. Since the last core update, it runs silky smooth and I'm getting frame rates that blows tsw away! I'm happy where it is.
I think DTG just do not invest anything in TSC, of course they want it to be known as their DLC still sells and costs them nothing apart from the steam depot fees. There's just been a subscription announcement. OpenSource can be ruled out for DLC based games, for obvious reasons. It still makes them money. And I have to say it again, the Harznetz2000 by toms87 is an incredible work of art, impossible in the "advanced" TSW. TSW is so overengineered that it is less capable. Have you played a scenario by Scarlet with constant dispatcher audio communication, even guiding you backwards into stations (20 meters.... 10 meters...)? Even adding hundreds of custom assets to the route per scenario to fit the era. Play "Tatort" on Köln-Koblenz. Amazing. Real immersion. I am fully satisifed with the 75.8a version, and honestly the "outdated" UI oesn't bother me (It's not slow - handling the huge scenario database is. Best to just remove unused Route folders to a place on the same partition (e.g. make a folder Content\RouteStorage, and use the Windows "Move" function so the data is not physically moved) to speed up loading, but keep all assets, they don't slow you down and there's dependencies). I've been using it for so long I don't think I want it to change - and there's RWEnhancer for those who want. Everything's there.
i let people konw tsc exists over on TSW forums ..someone on there was asking if Tennessee Pass had a chance to come to TSW i just said if you want it TSC has it but set in steam early diesel era ..and listed routes in TSC that freight oriented modern and classc content
It's better not to mention TSC over there. Only quarrels. Fair enough, we have our place here. Let them be frustrated and post bug reports. And see what Santa DTG has for great reveals (we make you forget the bugs by giving you nice Gameplay Pack toys kids!)...
thank you for the kind words again. After a long break and helping someone with building Wiesbaden in TSC, I´m eager to return to work on the Harznetz soon. I´ve been slowly building towards the next station after Salzgitter-Ringelheim during the past months. The distances between stations is very big in the Harzvorland (usually around 10 kilometres). So every new station is a big thing for me. Once I have something to show for, we will be releasing more frequent updates to the Harznetz in the future. If add the odd 20 kilometres, we will be making it public.
Maybe you have seen the screenshots I posted on the "Train Simulator Classic Screenshots" megathread. There's always these moments like that barbecue at the lake that surprise me and make this route very special. I keep discovering these "easter eggs" that show your team's passion. And that Volksfest scenario with perfect AP light fog sunset weather is so moody, I keep replaying these scenarios just because I love to get immersed in that world again. Stopping at stations, wandering around using the free cam. The lighting is awesome. Holy moly, it takes a modder in TSW to add street lights.... And the variety of slow mountain drives, the fast line to Sazgitter plus the narrow gauge tourist steamer is fascinating.
there is loads of stuff...we were very playful with the whole thing. Stephan built so many small signs and stuff for the route. There is a lot to discover. The Sonnenklippen, the man sitting by the Innerste under a bridge, the Hundewald in Wildemann, lots of Mining memorabilia etc. Glad you liked the scenarios! We slapped a couple of things together after we finally finished the routebuildung. It´s easy to build scenarios for the route, as it has mostly one track and not much AI to be placed. I remember Goslar beeing a real drag in the end.... we rebuilt it three times or so. We just wanted it to be really authentic and it has so many custom assets now, it´s crazy. PS: going forward we will cut down the level of detail and the custom assets. Besides signal boxes and station buildings we will keep it with normal assets for the future. I think we had every asset builder in the German community working towards us at one point. We can´t expect that in the long run. Sorry for the off-topic!
I would really like for them to fix the AI trains spawning from portals and I'd be happy. I love making scenarios so it would be great to have working.
You still have the option and make scenarios using a dedicated small core v72.3b installation. You can use a symbolic link to your assets and content from there. Coasty does so. The scenarios are still forward compatible.
Erm, I take it you have seen the Enough Is Enough thread? The complete withering that WCMLS is currently receiving, even with the update. I have certainly not been afraid to post in the "Reveal" reception thread that many of the announcements are underwhelming and not really reveals. Personally I think there are still a fair few who enjoy both TSC and TSW, hence the slight indignation over DTG turning their backs on it.
Though I can understand the term "Stockholm Syndrome" whenever I read someone saying they are confident DTG will address "issue x", it's "a lot of work", nothing's perfect etc blabla whereas their actions clearly show the opposite. And no one is working "hard" at DTG, they're just doing their normal jobs. Some better, some worse. Some motivated, some not so. A huge puzzle by too many contributors that doesn't fit together. And maybe a too "nice" guy as Executive Producer. I have once led a team in my company, and my boss told me it's not good being the nice guy. Respect is more important than sympathy in the industry. I can enjoy a lot of train sims - but if TSW were my only choice, good night. Stockholm Syndrome or leave the scene.
OldVern I was not speaking about you... I like alot of your post on TSW forum, because they are balanced and critical. But you know what kind of people I am talking about over on the other forum.
Oh we know who the white knights are, but in fairness you find that with every game. Farming Sim 2025 recently came out and it's a £42 pile of steaming poo, but a Facebook group I joined has people on there who would fight to the death with their keyboards, to defend it!
Will say quality wise, as far as US content is concerned, DTG has been improving that over on TSW, vs the payware content that still comes out on TSC. Of course there is still bugs, glitches, and headaches with TSW. But at least sounds, modeling and texturing on DTG's stock is much better that what we've gotten recently from HIS, MP, and Reppo. TSC's advantage is its alot easier to edit said issues vs TSW, which has become harder to make mods for, especially after the add on manager.
TSCs advantage is that there is more US content which 'could' be connected similar to the large routes already existing e.g. ECML. For TSW to get to that point will take a very long time. Currently smaller sections of DLC and less of it.
adding to that. TSC has more of UK, US, Canada, Germany, Switzerland, Austria, Hungary, Czechia, Slovenija, Romania, Turkey, Poland, Russia, India, New Zealand, China, Japan, Sweden, Danmark, Norway, France (and Corse), Spain, Italy, Belgium, South Africa and the Netherlands. There's even a Namibian desert route on RWA. from the maker of the SA routes, HermanK. And a brazilian route by MachineRail.
I had a read of the Wcml Preston To Carlisle - Feedback Thread and that is quite amusing. All the things that are wrong with the route.
It is good but not quite the grail some would have us believe. Performance is abysmal - probably a core thing but no doubt all that hi res grass and vegetation is gobbling up VRAM and system , causing the awful sound distortion. Even without the AP enhancement, the 87 on TSC sounds much smoother.
Gotta search myself. DTG won't make it sticky for sure Edit: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/public-beta-build-78-1a.82419/page-3#post-924872 In short again, press WIN+R, enter "Steam://open/console" New tab appears in the steam client, enter download_depot 24010 24009 6124394136512064068 It will download the 75.8a core files (identified by the long manifest ID - Steam stores everything) to steamapps\content\app_24010\depot_24009 It will take some time, 20 minutes or so (as the core is not in .ap files which are transferred 10x faster and Steam don't give you full bandwidth for these developer commands). You'll get a message once the download's finished. Save this folder. Copy its contents over to RailWorks, overwrite if asked (important). Then reinstall APSWEP to get the shaders, initial engine_script.lua and RailSimulatorCore TimeOfDay and Weather replacements back, which many freeware routes and QD depend upon. Note the AP Class 411 also installs three new shaders to dev\shaders , if in doubt reinstall that too. Though as they are unique, they shouldn't have been overwritten. If they are missing, you'll get an error message "missing shader" when starting a 411 scenario. That's all. In the unlikely case you want the current version back, just type download_depot 24010 24009 without a manifest id, this will download the latest depot version. Copy that over again, same procedure.
Correct! The depot contains all folders except for "Content", and the only Asset folder it features is Kuju\RailSimulatorCore. (You don't necessarily have to copy this at all, all that changes is the menu music) Reminder again to not delete anything manually. Many addons have placed InputMappers or other things in RailSimulatorCore, or DRM dummy files in Flyouts, Dialogs and such. Just copy and overwrite and all's good. Place your menu background of choice as 1920x1080 "background.jpg" in data\textures\frontend\
Almost forgot this: Delete the file "RailWorks\verify_cache_key" before starting TS! Best to remove it from the downloaded depot too.
Thanks for the clear and precise instructions. All sorted, now playing on version 75.8a. The only thing I don't have is the "Railworks\Verify_Cashe_Key" Is this something I should be worried about ? Keith
That file triggers the modded files (not Addons) removal (which TS is doing, Steam never touches any files it hasn't installed itself). It is part of the core download to remove mods on a fresh installation, where leftovers are always there unless people delete the RailWorks folder themselves, The file gets removed after first start and mod removal. I should have mentioned this earlier on. That file must not be there.
Thanks again. Probably phycological, but the game feels to load up quicker and play smoother . Would it be fair to say version 75.8a. is probably the definitive version of TSC ? Keith
Yes absolutely. I have tested each version intensively. v75.8a was the end of Phase II overhaul (Stability, Performance). Phase 3, current version and Beta, had the purpose of implementing long standing wishes. That proved to be problematic. You can do this with a new game where no DLC is out yet. Not being AMD user, the only caveat is the uncapped framerate in the menus which pushed AMD chips to their thermal limit. Simple workaround is limit FPS via GPU driver.
Is there anywhere that has a list of what was updated in each version, I know there are multiple beta forums but I was hoping there my be an update log somewhere
Any discussion or debate surrounding TSW vs TSC inevitably leads nowhere as both sides will dig in to argue their point. One of the problems with these games is that any discussion often comes with lots of emotional investment - people have paid a lot of money for the privilege of owning either (or both) games and have probably sunk a fair amount of cash into DLC. Nobody wants to be told that their choices or 'side' are wrong and therefore I don't find these arguments very fruitful or conducive other than coming across as a bit sneering and gatekeepy (that goes for both sides). The schadenfreude aimed towards the TSW forum around the recent WCML update is tantamount to that - at the end of the day, regardless of the game you play, we're meant to be united around the idea of trains and transport and I think it's important we hold that in mind. I think it's acceptable to like both games - I started playing TSW initially on console back in lockdown and that was sort of my 'gateway drug' into train simulators. At the time, I was really charmed by GWE and the idea I could operate a GWR train. It was sort of uncanny but the game allowed me to slowly learn how to use safety systems, signals etc. and gave me a vague idea of how the whole train thing works. It also sparked my interest in learning more about the history of the railways etc. so outside of the game, it's also been beneficial and eventually led me to play TSC. TSW has a lot of problems, and there are some core issues such as passenger behaviour, lack of passengers on trains, poor lighting etc that can turn the experience very sour. Only yesterday I started a thread about the lack of passengers on the Class 390 in timetable mode. It's unforgivable that on the 5th iteration of the game, DTG still haven't managed to solve these issues and it makes any inter-city service seem a joke. Despite that, TSW is something I can power up after work, choose a service and just play. It doesn't need much adjusting or tinkering so as a straight out the box game it is ok however I frequently find myself frustrated with the basics that aren't fixed. In my mind, TSC is a lot more consistent - with enhancements, AP packs, RWE etc. the game has a core foundation and works generally well. The route variety and length of route is fantastic and has opened a lot of avenues up in regards to payware and freeware. However, TSC does require more tinkering to get right and there are still problems that can be frustrating such as broken scenarios and the aging of older DLC routes. TSC also requires a lot more investment to bring it up to today's standards. You're easily looking at sinking a few hundred just to get a few of the basics and lots of freeware routes have requirements as long as your arm. Whilst the end result is probably very nice, getting there requires a lot in terms of investiture and in some cases time. Whilst TSW has it's faults and at times feels like the Tonka toy in relation to TSC, I think on the whole it's a net positive that TSW exists and that it has enabled people to discover TSC as well. Let's just enjoy whatever we play, but also hold account developers (on both sides) to make the games better.
