Possible And Practical Rollout Of A Foreign Country - Italy

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by FD1003, Jan 13, 2022.

  1. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    On the Q&A stream one of the reasons listed as to why DTG doesn't want to venture to another country was something along these lines: "unless we create a closed system [like LGV] we will always have the first routes which will just feel empty, because we can only add one train at the time, and it could take way too much time to get to the point of having as much diversity as the UK/US/GER"

    While it makes sense, I don't believe this is a compelling reasons as to why another country's rollout is impossible, of course with one train per route the first one is not going to look amazing, but each country has that branch line or that quirky line which only uses that one train, and even if when end up with an empty looking central station, it's not the end of the world (example: GCC).

    To demostrate this I wanted to do a thought experiment, what if I put myself in DTG's shoes and tried to rollout a new country, and what better choice than my home country of Italy? I think it ranked 3rd on last year Sam list of most wanted country after Holland and Australia (I'll double check it later). This thread is more of a personal thing rather than an actual suggestion, and is probabily really boring so reader discretion is adviced I guess?

    ----First Two Routes, building the basic Regional Network----​
    For this I decided to start on my most local lines, apart from my personal bias, they have the big advantage that they are in Sicily, in this region (unlike most of the mainland) the rail network itself is pretty small, the number of trains is pretty small, and unlike Sardinia or other small branch lines it's fully electrified and uses the same trains used by the mainland, so in particular the first routes are:

    Part of the Palermo - Punta Raisi Airport commuter line
    This is a commuter rail line which connects Palermo's central station with its international airport, right now the line passes underneath the city, and immediately splits off all the other lines going to and from other cities, which means no parallel running with barren and empty tracks.

    The line is partly single track and partly double track, actually it is now in the process of being double tracked, you can learn more in one of my first forum posts here

    It wouldn't be the best ever route, it's not all that scenic and the timetable is not exaclty like BML, it's just an half-hourly service in both directions, but it's not different from Rapid Transit and would be a good testing ground for the signalling and safety system, hopefully the fact it's a foreign route would suffice as a selling point.

    The only thing that matters about this route is that it only uses one type of train, and this is it:
    maxresdefault.jpg
    This is a 5 element ETR425 EMU, the "Jazz" used for regional trains all over the country, now that we have this we can have our second route, and that would be a mainline coming from Palermo, this has some benefits:
    -The station area is built already
    -AI could be retroactively fit to make the station more busy

    This line should already be more interesting than the first and could offer some very beautiful seaside scenes, is part of the Palermo-Messina line.

    It is a mainline which connects Messina (which is Sicily's connection to the mainland via RoRo ferries) to Palermo (the "region capital"), the main traffic is regionals and fast regionals, but also sees InterCity travel. The line follows closely Sicily's north coast which results in really good views, hopefully that could be marketable if the scenery is well done.

    The train addition of this line would be a push-pull regional set, which would mainly introduce the E.464 which is key for doing all kinds of regional work in the country, we have more than 700 of them in operation and are everywhere. Immagine.jpg
    Those are the coaches and cab car I would include - MDVC coaches with the "Passante" cab car. Here is the locomotive 20200810_132508.jpg
    These push pull sets generally do faster more direct services, while the EMU do the regional stopper ones, that's why it's crucial we did the other route first to get the EMUs in the game, it might have also been useful as a smaller, but urban project to start creating urban props, houses, blocks, etc... it wouldn't be too different from Marseille.

    Most importantly, now they have the bread and butter of regional railroad, sure they could get fancier and develop more coach types and cab cars, but those are not necessary for some parts of the country and the next route could be an opportunity to add Intercity trains, or expand on the regional roster.

    ----Where to go from Here----​
    I won't give any more specific example because it's not needed, once we get to the point the E.464 exists the vast majority of the regional network is one passenger car and cab car away. The most common set in the mainland (especially in the north and in big population centers) is with 5 ViValto elements
    27061491101_75a99d6036_b.jpg Once a route using the Jazz and the E.464 (opportunity to create the ViValto set) is done, then we could either see an InterCity or other long distance sets to make mainlines feel busier, or you could introduce the two newest EMUs (Pop and or Rock). Once that is done you have successfully created almost the entirety of our push-pull or EMU roster, and the best part is that if freight comes as a discussion time at any point for a route on the mainland (AFAIK freight is almost non existent in Sicily as everything comes in and out by ship - don't quote me on this), chances are Traxxes or Vectrons operate that in conjunction with our homemade locomotives, so no problem.
     
    Last edited: Jan 13, 2022
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  2. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    I've spent a good deal of time on passenger trains in Italy, traveling from Aosta and various cities of the Friuli region to your native Sicily and many, many wonderful placed in between. I'm an ardent supporter of bringing Italian railways to TSW2, with my usual caveat: include routes that offer freight traffic and, more precisely, shunting opportunities. Evviva la ferrovia Italiana!
     
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  3. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Bring Italy to the game. For DTG they can probably try doing this have one end of the route be PZB LZB Sifa ETCS 15kv 16.7hz 1.95m pantographs Carbon strip ÖBB Deutsche Bahn then the other end being the Italian 3kv DC 25kv 50hz ETCS SCMT RS4 1.45m pantographs copper contact strips. This applies to Pontafel Bahn Tarvis Brenner Bahn Brenner & Pustertal Bahn Innichen. That way you can have German/Austrian locomotives run freight on Italian routes example ÖBB1216 RFI E190 capable of running Italian routes and Riesa-Dresden. In return Italian routes give Hauptstrecke München-Augsburg FS E412 Nürnberg Augsburg Brenner via Innsbruck & München Laim Rbf.
     
  4. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    A truly excellent post/proposal FD1003 Italy is a country I would love to see, and I do have a special soft spot for it.

    I don't personally buy the idea of "making custom assets for one route and the never use them again" - why not expand on it? There's usually interest in non-big three countries, so I don't see why not.

    And your idea of making one route, nice and simple with one unit, and then utilising that, it just makes sense.

    One day, I hope.

    Or just simplify things and keep it as one safety system. Easier for everyone, as it means people who aren't familiar with the German ones don't have to learn them and Italian Ones.
     
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  5. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    You mean the European Train control system ETCS instead of what those routes have now which is the German system and Italian systems. The easy thing to do is the voltage change just like LGV Méditerranée for those routes they're at Tarviso Brenner and Innichen provided it's a dual voltage locomotive under ETCS.
     
  6. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Where did I mention ETCS.

    You said to have a route that uses DB Safety Systems, and Italian Ones. I say "simplify it and just use one." Considering the route would literally be Italian, I would imagine it was obvious I was meaning Italian systems.
     
  7. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    ETCS is still being rolled out, it's now only used on major corridors and high speed routes, we have 2 proprietary safety systems which are not a world away from ATC and ACSES, like in the US one enforces speed limits and the other enforces signals, and like ATC, is also a full in-cab signalling system. Our "ACSES-equivalent" instead works differently, it's just a small light on the speedometer, which tells you if at any point you are above the service breaking curve, but unlike ACSES it doesn't show the speed limits and time to react anywhere, it works in the background, and you have to know the speed limits and when to brake "the old way".

    Useful Links:
    SCMT (Sistema Controllo Marcia Treno) - System to Control Train Movement [english]
    RSC (Ripetizione Segnali Continua) - Continuous Signal [in-cab] "Repetition" [sadly you have to use your browser's translate function for this one]

    Thanks everyone for the support, I wasn't even sure wheter to post this, and I didn't expect to gather so much attention, I would love for Italy being introduced, but sadly I think the only hope would be a third party dev, and the train simming scene in Italy seems a bit dead since the MSTS days... but who know, if there are money to be made I'm sure it will come up sooner or later.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2022
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  8. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    What I had in mind were international routes cross-border that's why I had ETCS in Mind for those to solve PZB Sifa Germany Austria Meeting Italian Systems.
     
  9. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Find it very hopeful and for DTG they can do SCMT RSC route first then make it complex by making them to where they meet PZB LZB Sifa. Your suggestion Brenner Bahn will do that job. E412 does have LZB Sifa ETCS PZB equipped so is the Austrian ÖBB 1216 German DB BR189 & 193.
     
  10. Iskra1

    Iskra1 Member

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    I don't think it's unreasonable to offer two locomotive types in the first release. Many European train/carriage types can just be reskinned too from existing German models as quite a lot is similar/shared or runs-cross border services.

    However, for Italy I would like to see the Sicily train ferry operation brought into the game maybe a Lamezia-Villa San Giovanni route, with an IC loco and rolling stock and a diesel shunter provided. A few freight wagons could be included too either for use with the Electric Loco on the mainline or for the shunters to shunt.

    Alternatvely, I'd like some of the Ionian Coast route modelled for some D445 Diesel intercity action or ALN Railcars.

    Italy has so much railway interest, I'd hate for a route to be announced with just one boring modern multiple unit to be included.

    thumbnail_IMG_7670.jpg thumbnail_IMG_6064.jpg thumbnail_IMG_6055.jpg thumbnail_IMG_6179.jpg
     

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