Protagonist, Can You Clarify What We May Expect From Bug Fixing?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Rudolf, Jul 8, 2020.

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  1. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    Euro Truck is simulator
     
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  2. AyrtonS8

    AyrtonS8 Well-Known Member

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    I would say Euro Truck is a simulator as its a game about a job, driving trucks and delivering cargo to different destinations while trying to make a profit. Having said that though, I wouldn't think of it being a hard core simulator though. I feel it's definitely one of those laid back sims that you can relax to, which is where I feel Train Sim World is at and the direction its heading down. I see Train Sim Classic more of a full on simulator over Train Sim World.
     
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  3. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I think that's entirely debatable and varies from person to person. No different to saying Train Sim World is a game and not a simulator as it rewards the player with points and medals and the end of the journey.
     
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  4. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Gameulator?
     
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  5. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    View attachment 28431
    Your idea for a community bug list sounds great. Having a list of bugs to keep track of what DTG have fixed and have not seems a little much as we have patch notes for that. Also all of these builds had to be approved by Sony and none of what you mention would get a second look from Sony as it’s nothing game breaking and it’s nothing malicious.
     
  6. Plastic Pal

    Plastic Pal Well-Known Member

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    It's an interesting point that you make about these bugs and issues not being game breaking or particularly serious. So - are you suggesting that Sony would be completely content for TSW and TSW2 to have the following characteristics:

    - permanently broken trophies, a supposedly supported feature in the PlayStation ecosystem;
    - broken key advertised features and content, such as Scenarios;
    - sound bugs that could damage hearing and audio equipment;
    - platform specific bugs that are clearly only present because of lack of QA and testing on PlayStation and XBox that only punish console users; and,
    - the publisher appearing to having a policy to regard bug reports of the above issues as "feedback" that absolutely won't ever be addressed (not that DTG have ever said that explicitly).

    Because I am very confident that all of the above are completely unacceptable. You are right, that Sony will do a number of tests that don't cover the above areas when builds are pushed out to their servers, to ensure that the builds do not cause immediate damage to Sony's network..... but they still do expect extensive QA to be undertaken for general quality and fitness for purpose.

    But let's just say, for argument's sake, that I am completely wrong.... and that actually it is perfectly okay to have software on PlayStation Store that is utterly broken, but not in a malicious way. You can still start the game, but nothing can be completed, the sound is either not present or it destroys your speakers (not through intent, but only because of lack of care), and the content described on PlayStation Store is completely false.... the content that Sony itself will make money on and put them in a very difficult position...... How far can you go....? Just how mediocre can you possibly make the software, and get over the bar?

    Because you make it sound like an incredibly low bar. But then again - it's always good to have something to aim for.
     
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I completely forgot about the tsw2 sand patch grade. Welp I guess dtg would do something like that. What a shame and the new things aren't major. It could've all been in a update and the fact that they're charging because it was expensive when we don't know how much it cost is a real scam and dirty. Dtg should be more transparent and end this nonsense
     
  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And the fact that it was a cash grab as well because planes in other flight sims were way cheaper than what dtg were charging
     
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  9. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

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    Also consider that maybe people don’t like being ripped off by Dovetail. Your company’s business practices put a very quick end to Flight Sim World. I like trains more than I like planes or trucks, but yet here we are. You guys would have my money if you weren’t actively trying to rip me off.

    Speaking of being ripped off, I’d love a response to my previous question in this thread on if we will need to rebuy a locomotive/route in TSW2 if we already own it in TSW1, and Dovetail decides to re-release it in TSW2 with some updates. Particularly with NEC, I’ve been expecting it to be brought up to an acceptable level of quality for some time now, free of charge. If Dovetail does NEC v2, will I get it for free, or will I need to pay to get the bug fixes and any new features that may come with it?
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    But hey it's just business. As long as people buy their products and have no compition on consoles at least, then they will continue the same nonsense and not listen to their customers
     
  11. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And at least scs prices for dlc in American Truck Simulator are pretty reasonable and affordable and have tons of landscape and content compared to dtg where you spend $30 for a 18 mile route with 1 train and very little content
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't know if tsw is a simulator either since some features of a train can't be used, they train sounds innacurate like the m7 and the 166. Filled with bugs and have a train like the 47 updated almost a year after ntp came out to fix the handling of the train.

    Maybe if they wanted to attract more people into train simulation, dtg should look at how much they're charging for DLCs in tsw and perhaps lower the prices to what they are on sale because some routes aren't worth $30 like Canadian National which was riddled with bugs, Hauptstrecke Rhein-Rhur which is too short and lackes content. With scs the prices are pretty reasonable and not expensive and you get so much content for the money compared to train Sim world where you get very little content for the money. Yes it costs a lot of money to make these things, but the final product is not worth the money due to lack of content and length as we keep getting unconnecting non full line routes. Flight Sim World was nothing but a clear cash grab compared to the compition hence why it failed and if they keep doing what they're doing with tsw, the game could fail
     
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  13. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    If DTG were to remaster a TSW route for TSW2, I would suggest they increase the track mileage to make it a value-added upgrade. For example an up-to-date Great Western Express route that reaches Oxford and Swindon would be very cool. One thing that would have surely appeased PC players would have been to offer a longer more "complete" version of Sand Patch Grade, perhaps going beyond Rockwood?
     
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  14. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I spent $60 on Madden 2018 and it’s lacking features and it has bugs that weren’t fixed. Madden 2020 fixes these bugs and adds in some of these features. Does this mean I get Madden 2020 for free? There are plenty of railroads in the world that I don’t think DTG will bother building one they already released in TSW. I can’t help but think DTG should have completely kept TSW and TSW2 apart to keep people that bought a dlc or locomotive on TSW to feel like they are entitled to a free upgrade. I’m sorry you waited for two years for DTG to “Fix” NEC but the biggest issue on NEC is the safety system. This can be turned off and I understand that some people don’t like that at all. It’s a bummer but I certainly wasn’t holding out hope for this to be fixed so I could return to one of DTG’s early routes that I already had spent a tremendous amount of time with. I got exactly what I expected from all of the DLC and routes/locomotives have certainly improved since NEC and I’m glad they didn’t spend time going after every bug/complaint that has come up and have spent that time making more content for us to enjoy. Simply put they could have released the new routes on TSW without upgrading the Unreal Engine, adding the scenario and livery editor and without the adhesion physics for a total of $90. Instead they did do all of those things and it’s only $30. There would be a much easier way for DTG to make money if they didn’t care.
     
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  15. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

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    If they want to sell an expansion, fine, but they MUST include the fixes to the old portion of the route for free, or I would not even consider it.

    TBH though, the very fact that I already would need to rebuy exactly the same game a second time before I could even hope to those free updates has pretty much put me off actually considering purchasing anything from DTG again. If I had to rebuy the exact same route again to have old bugs fixed, on top of buying the same game again, I would just laugh harder. Dovetail is such an awful company.

    I still think Sam is a stand up guy, but his comparison between ETS2 and TSW seems completely tone deaf. Sure, you have more of a goal to work towards in SCS's truck sim games, but the goal isn't why you play. You play those for the same reason you play a train sim or a flight sim, to drive a cool vehicle. The truck sim games are not more successful because they are more gamey. Sure, you could say that they are more gamey, but SCS is a successful company because they do the right thing for their customers and stand by their products.

    I still remember when SCS rescaled the entire map of American Truck Simulator from 1:35 to 1:20 for FREE. Dovetail would never in a million years do this. SCS also releases new trucks for free, and new map expansions for very fair prices. Like 1/3 of what Dovetail charges for a route. Beyond this, they are constantly updating their engine and older game content for free as well. They recently implemented an entirely new sound engine, which took them months of work to get working, and they are also looking at new graphical extensions to their games in the near future. This isn't even counting all of the enhancements they have made to their engine in the past, like implementing an HDR lighting model. SCS is doing, and has always done, all of these things as free updates.

    Meanwhile, what does Dovetail do when they update their engine? Pretend it's an entirely new game and charge for it. There aren't even any good features yet to justify the engine update. Wheel slip? Congrats, it took you guys a paid engine update to accomplish something that was in MSTS 20 years ago. Everything else is just a promise for the future right now, and we know how bad Dovetail are at keeping those.
     
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  16. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    57579ED5-FD6E-47C6-9073-8F44F4856AAF.png
     
  17. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

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    Sorry man but you lost credibility with your argument here. First you act like nothing needs fixed with your air quotes, but then you immediately go on to acknowledge that a major feature of driving trains on this route is broken. And you do it all while looking down from an ivory tower lol.

    Guess what man, there are some people out there who expect companies to sell their products in a fully working state. Failing that, they should at least do right by their customers and fix their products for free. If you personally do not believe this, and are perfectly fine with continuing to purchase all of the objectively mediocre products Dovetail puts out, good for you. I am sure this is exactly what Dovetail hopes for all of their customers to be like. Don't expect everyone to think the same though, and don't bother trying to talk down on those who don't think like you do. You won't change anyone's minds by saying "look how much better I am than you" when you don't offer anything except flawed arguments.

    BTW, not going to bother looking through your post history, but I genuinely hope you aren't also one of those guys who says "You don't NEED to buy everything that Dovetail puts out. Only buy what you want". I've seen people say this, then turn around and contradict themselves with what you said, by implying that people SHOULD buy the new routes because they are higher quality, if they are disappointed with the old routes. Just saying...
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  18. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    “Dovetail is such an awful company.” You make this statement after talking about having to buy a re-released route from TSW on TSW2 but I don’t believe there are any signs pointing towards that. What exactly is someone spending $30 on when buying TSW2? Are we paying for the engine upgrade? If so is it that we receive Sandpatch, the ICE3 Koln route, and the Bakerloo line, Scenario and livery editor for free if we are paying the $30 just for the Unreal engine upgrades. You mention wheel slip is included as well. DTG sound way better then those trucker people.
     
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  19. arapajoe3

    arapajoe3 Member

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    I agree. Both are GAMES that try to SIMULATE. ETS2 is a great simulator, dynamic weather, trucks with real physics (that you can adjust), work on time to other places (which is exactly what a trucker does), etc. etc. TSW is the same trying to simulate, but the BIG difference ETS2 / TSW are and will be mods and dealing with the community. In fact to play world map combos mods you need the dlc's so they make sure you have to buy all their map dlc's in order to play the map mods. That feedback with the community is what gives ETS2 what TSW lacks, an harmony between the company and the community (even game updates are free, graphics, sound, etc etc).

    By the way many of the ETS2 players are truckers, ex-truckers, or simple players, I mean that the simulation experience for those people is quite enough, if not go to the forums and you will see that they are people looking for simulation and they know what they are talking about.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  20. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

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    Yet another flawed argument.

    Let's say you don't care about the new routes, or the barebones editors that will likely be quickly forgotten in their current states. Let's say that you have only been waiting for updates to Sandpatch Grade that people have been asking for since 2017. Wheel slip, wagon weight, etc. You already own these products, but in order to get a few more fundamental features to a train simulator, you need to pay $30. This is what people are annoyed about.

    The Sandpatch stuff should have been free (at least for PC players). The engine update should have been free. The new minor features, in line with what they have always included with yearly updates, should have been free. The new routes? Fine, charge $30 for them, maybe include Sandpatch in this bundle for console players. That all would have been in line with what Dovetail has done in the past. Not only would it have been fair, and it would have given far more credit to Sam's claims that Dovetail are changing for the better, but it also would have come without them giving a convenient new excuse to either abandon old content (which they already admit that they are), or sell bug fixes/other updates to them as new products.

    Stop while you are behind, man.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  21. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Spoken by someone who apparently has no idea what they are talking about. If you have any of the SCS Truck Simulators, then I apologise.

    If you don't, you are basing your comment simply on the fact that TSW2 has been announced at £24.99.

    The SCS base game comes with all the available trucks. The routes cover whole States or countries in the case of the European game. Every route add-on links in with the other routes you own enabling you to drive literally from one end of the map to the other. There is a huge user base of content which the developers encourage. There's also an active multiplayer option.

    All of these generally cost less than the retail price of most of the DLC'S offered by DTG.

    So yeah, those "trucker people" are pretty terrible.
     
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  22. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    First off, I think it’s an HONOR that you think I have credibility. Man.
    The safety systems might not work properly but did you really not run any services because of that and waited years for a “fix”. There I go again.
    Everyone has their own likes and dislikes.
    Yours just seem really granular and based off of silly little things. Such as “safety systems”.
    Who needs them anyway.
     
  23. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

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    I mean, I tend to go into opposing arguments with an open mind. It would have been foolish to go into this debate believing that you are automatically wro-

    [​IMG]

    Nevermind, clearly I was mistaken.
     
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  24. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Actually it was stated that those trucker people increased the map size for free. I was simply stating if we are paying $30 for the engine upgrades alone, the routes and other features included are free. My accusation about those truckers is based off of what was said, in that respect DTG would be just as great as they also are providing us with free content. I don’t know anything about SCS simulators and if I cared enough about what their company does and does not do I would definitely reach out for that info.
     
  25. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    I have played around 450h of Euro Truck Simulator 2 and around 750 of TS and TSW combined, so I know all the products quite well. Euro Truck Simulator is a simulator, not a professional simulator, same as TSW. Both products have simplified controls and assists because not everybody wants or has the time to learn every mechanic of each truck or loco. Both programs are entertainment software, not exact replicas for professional use.

    I'm not sure why you think that having a reward at the end in ETS2 makes it less of a simulator. You know, in ETS2 you get in-game money and experience that you are only shown twice. First when you select the delivery, and at the end to show you how you performed.

    In TSW by default you have the score on the top right corner of your screen. You see it counting on top of the screen the whole time, from start to finish. For passenger trains, if I stop 1cm out of the expected stop point (which is not 100% of the time where it is supposed to be) I get a score penalty. At the end, I get a report with the score and XP, similar to what I get in ETS2. What I do not have in ETS2 are medals, like I have in TSW now. If I don't make enough points, I do not get the gold medaI. So, to me, in this aspect of the simulators, you are seeing the splinter in SCS's eye but you are not seeing the beam on your own.

    To me, both products are good simulators. I know that TSW has somewhat better graphics, but ETS2 has a much bigger map so they can't have the same detail. That is completely normal.

    Now, to be fair, there is something that needs to be said. From a programmer's point of view, it is much easier to simulate trucks than trains. A truck just moves on the road, and you really only need to care about the traffic and signals in maybe 1 Km around. Also, the vehicles have at least a lane for each direction so you have no "block" points. The only forces you need to take care about are the cab and the trailer.

    In a train simulator, you do not only need to simulate the loco, but you also have to simulate each of the wagons that come behind. Each track can only be used by 1 train at a time, and any delay in any one train has effects on the others. The signals are all dependent on one another, and things only work as long as everything is 100% correct. A little bug in just 1 signal or just one train can cause trouble in lots of the services that might be several kilometers away or coming hours after. Same happens with the train scheduler. That is another system that is really difficult to program, and what is worse, it is difficult to debug even when you have an example (ie an specific scenario where you know it is not working as it should). I bet at least 70% of the showstopper bugs come from signals or the scheduler.

    So, to sum it up, it might seem that both simulators have the same programming complexity, but it is not the case at all.
     
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  26. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    They changed the map size for free making it a bigger scale so more content and roads could be fitted into that map.

    You appear to be one of the people who accepts that TSW2 is a brand new game, so you are paying £24.99 for your brand new game with 3 routes.
     
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  27. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

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    You know what, just in case this was said in good faith, let me explain then.

    1) Running with safety systems is more realistic. Hence the word "Simulator" in the title.
    2) Running with safety systems increases the difficulty of driving on the route. Since NEC especially is a very short route, anything to increase engagement is welcome.
    3) To further elaborate, Dovetail's routes tend to be totally lifeless. NEC does not have road traffic, and HUGE swathes of scenery are completely barren. You would sooner think you were in the middle of the desert in some places, not near one of the largest cities in the world (NYC). If looking out the window is boring, then you should at least have a good reason to focus on the cab itself.
    4) You might actually learn something along the way. I thought learning German PZB was cool and a hell of a challenge as well, since I had to try to figure out what I kept doing wrong... until I realized that those systems are just as broken as ATC is on NEC, and that I wasn't actually learning anything other than how to compensate for Dovetail's bugs. Meh.
     
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  28. arapajoe3

    arapajoe3 Member

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    People arguing because they said that TSW is more simulated than ETS and you say that security systems don't matter? OF COURSE for me, because if I want a greater simulation I play with the security systems of the trains. Unless you want a Train Driver from point A to B and only accelerate and brake Wow what a simulation.
    You should inform yourself (just to be able to talk about ETS) of the characteristics of ETS and see if it is more or less simulator.
     
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  29. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Doesn't TSW also reward the player with medals and points though?

    Also, regarding the arguments about the safety systems... Playing a train simulator without safety systemts is like playing Euro Truck Simulator without obeying speed limits and traffic lights. Of course, some people do just that. But if you want to play properly and have a more interesting gameplay, you follow the rules.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2020
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  30. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and trophies and mastery and all kinds of game things like collecting discarded hammers and putting sandwich posters up.
     
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  31. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    I can’t recall comparing the two on their simulation, I didn’t even mention anything about what is considered a simulator. I’m not quite sure what your responding to. I can see there are some truck simulator fans on this train forum though.
     
  32. matthewbguilford

    matthewbguilford Well-Known Member

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    Your argument is flawed. If you don’t like the routes in TSW2 then don’t buy it. If you just want Sandpatch then play TSW because if the only route you care about is Sandpatch and your holding out for free upgrades such as wheel slip and wagon weight in 2020. They make more money if they upgraded TSW for free and sold the routes for $30 each on TSW but they aren’t. I’m not a developer but that leads me to believe that there is a technical reason those upgrades couldn’t be put into TSW which requires work. Your use of the term free is frightening.
     
  33. Deebz__

    Deebz__ Active Member

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    You say it's flawed but basically just go on to explain why it isn't. Good job? Yes, I have zero intention of buying anything from Dovetail again. Yes, I have uninstalled TSW because of the sheer insult that I need to pay $30 to get features as fundamental to a train simulator as wheel slip and wagon weight in 2020, something I can get in the base package of Microsoft Train Simulator from 2000. New games should be adding new features in addion to older, basic features, not instead of them.

    Savegames won't carry over. This is a mute point anyway since I can't imagine anyone will continue playing TSW1 simply to keep their progress which has exactly zero impact on anything that matters.

    That's... basically it? Even if they still didn't want to update their old stuff, they still wouldn't need to if they really didn't want to if they don't want to, since it's obvious that the old routes will work with the updated engine.

    Your unquestioning consumer mentality is more frightening.
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    That's why I love ats and what scs does with the game. They actually care about their community and listen to feedback and criticisms and makes the game better, also adding graphical updates for FREE, but for some reason dtg won't even bother doing that. There was a graphical update for tsw2020 but that was early and minor. It's ridiculous that dtg would advertise tsw2 as a new game when its clearly not.
     
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  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    DTG does have a habit of not fixing any bugs and it is frustrating for people who invest a lot of money to have these issues. You think you put it in the fourms and they be fixed but that's not the case. Other game companies would actually fix these issues instead of trying to maximize profit like dtg did with Canadian National. I was so close to buying it as well but that route was nothing but a cash grab. I think to have to pay for CSX heavy haul again to get the bug fixes and features that were asked for by pc players for years is not fair only for two new trains and 12 extra services and not revolutionary features unless if people say that wheelslip is revolutionary. Yes it's new for console players but I think the new features for CSX Heavy Haul or what it's now called Sand Patch Grade should have come as a free update for pc players at least and dtg could've charged console players since it's new to console. I think that's just one of DTGs dirty business practices. So I can understand Deebz's frustration
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Perhaps they could make the modern version of great western express with the class 800s 387s and even include tfl Rail and oboivousely make it much longer
     
  37. arapajoe3

    arapajoe3 Member

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    I don't know what you mean by "free" content from DTG. The few updates I saw on TSW were newly released dlc's bugs, then forgotten at the bottom of the drawer. SCS does not provide free maps, but the community has the tool to create maps and add them to the base, being able to have the whole world and most of the maps are free and even the truck mods made by the community. I mean the difference in the relationship between company / community, although everything that DTG does without accepting criticism seems perfect to you, man it seems that you are a shareholder of DTG or something xD



    This is not a conspiracy of truckers, it is one more game that I play, and TSW and TS I have given many hours I assure you. We are not here to criticize this game without reason, we are here because consumers feel somewhat deceived with what DTG is doing,
    I do not come here to say things out of boredom, because we like trains and the game, but we are not idiots man and we ask ourselves:
    "Hey! something strange is happening here!"
     
  38. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Creative Director Staff Member

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    This has gone quite far enough as it has devolved into personal attacks. Several participants in this thread would do well to back off from the discussion and cool down. Other people are allowed to have opinions different to yours. There isn't a single person in this thread whose statements are wholly accurate, or wholly inaccurate. Everyone has opinions. You won't change anyone else's.

    All your feedback is recorded and reported to the people who make the decisions within Dovetail Games. Continuing arguments after you've already stated your case accomplishes only one thing - locked forum threads.
     
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