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Pzb Modes For Freight On German Routes

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by doublefine7, Sep 16, 2020.

  1. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Hello fellow community. This thread is about to collect the correct PZB modes for any freight service on the german routes. You may ask: How can we get the correct PZB mode?

    So: The PZB mode depends on the so called "Bremshundertstel". To get this value, you have to the following formula:

    Train brake weight*100/train weight

    Here is an example. The Service DB 81101 on RSN. Loco is the 185.2 with a brake weight of 90 tons on P. The formation consists of 25 coal wagons. Service description says they are loaded, even though the cars' brakes are set to empty (28 t per wagon). Full would be 58 but I take the 28 because of the brake lever is set to empty. So: 90 + (25*28)=790 t. This is the train brake weight. Train weight is 4679,6 tons. So the formula would look like this:

    (790*100)/4679,6= 16,8 BrH. So this train would have to go with PZB mode U since the value is below 66.

    If you want further information on how to acquire these values, here is a link to the german wikipedia-page for Bremshundertstel:

    https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremshundertstel

    Edit: I take the values for the Brake weights from this page: https://zusiwiki.echoray.de/wiki/Sammlung_von_Bremsgewichten

    If you are calculating the "Bremshundertstel", the following values define the PZB mode:

    Above 111: O
    Between 66 and 110: M
    Below 66: U

    Also keep in mind that the game is not exactly like the real thing, so be conservative if you are close to 66 and take U. The current values and modes are based on what the Mod by Muff gives as formations so things will definitely change when MSB and RRO release.

    I am starting the list and will add more of the freight services in the future. If every service on a certain route with a certain loco is always the same PZB mode, I will conclude them into one part on the list so the list is better to read, for example: "Every freight service with Loco xyz is PZB mode U on this route". Feedback is heavily welcome.

    Schnellfahrstrecke Köln - Aachen
    DB 83131 - combined eastbound - BR 185.2 - 65 - U
    DB 83103 - mixed eastbound - BR 185.2 - 67 - M

    Ruhr Sieg Nord (RSN):
    The service below and its value leads to the assumption that every loaded coal train on RSN is to be driven in PZB mode U regardless of the Loco you have chosen. I will let this service stand as an example and will add exceptions if there are any :)
    DB 81101 - BR 185.2 - U - 16,8 (assuming the coal wagons count as empty, full would be lower)
    DB 80101 - BR 155 - loaded wood (roos-t) - M - ca. 69
    DB 81206 - BR 155 - empty coal wagons - M - 107
    DB 84502 - BR 143 - trains - O - Caution: Dont forget to put all the batteries on the locos to off before upping the pantograph except for the leading one. PZB mode is O for all services of this kind with all locos.
    DB 80213 - mixed Hagen - Finnentrop - BR 155 - 119 - O (assuming of the train weight that the cars are not loaded)

    Main-Spessart Bahn MSB
    DB 86118 - BR 155 - Mixed EZ - M - ca 73.
     
    Last edited: Oct 2, 2020
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  2. Averrnor

    Averrnor Member

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    Actually that is very usefull. Hope to see more coming :)
     
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  3. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I don't understand this sentence :D Is "Mod by Muff" a moderator or a mod, and if the latter could you link it?

    EDIT: I did some googling and found a mod for TSW1 by "Muff" but I didn't know there was a mod for TSW2?

    Is DB 83123 a custom scenario because I can't find services for BR185 or BR155 for Köln - Aachen.

    BrH = 34.7 seems very low to me. Is it some kind of unbraked special train or?

    Lastly, something that may be of interest: For most German wagons you can usually read the brake weight on the undercarriage or the side of the wagon. Some of the RSN freight wagons are detailed enough that the brake weight is readable. For example the Falns aggregate/coal wagons have a brake weight of 58t loaded and a wagon weight of 90t so the BrH is 64 (PZB U).

    However I should state that all the wagon weights and brake weights are bugged on RSN with the wagon weights being that of empty wagons even if you choose loaded trains except for the Kreutzal Letmathe coal train that has too high weights instead (140t).
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  4. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    There is a mod in this forums who adds services to SKA for freight and passengers. For the Coal wagons I always take a look a tthe Bremshebel. If it is set to empty, I take the empty value of 28 t. Even that value would lead to PZB U in the BR 155 services for SKA. For RSN I still have to look into the formations etc because the BrH also depends from the Loco you have.
     
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  5. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    2 questions: 1. Bremshebel = brake handle, I.e the undercarriage lever for "Leer","Beladen" and printed "Umstellgewicht"?
    I don't speak German contrary to what it might seem from me using German terms hehe, I just use them because translating would make it nonsense.
    2. Iirc the Falns coal wagon weighs 24.5t unloaded so the Brh = 28/24.5 = 114. Drivers might still use PZB M here but I doubt PZB U, are you seeing some other numbers?

    EDIT: I can't find the link to the timetables, do you still have the link, by any chance?
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  6. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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  7. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Added a calculation example.
     
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  8. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Awesome, thanks for the link!
     
  9. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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  10. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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  11. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Not to be a nit picker (although I am :D) but I would caution against trusting whether the wagon brake setting has been set to loaded or empty depending on the position of the lever in the game. I'm quite sure you are prohibited in driving a train with a BrH of ~ 16 unless at very low speeds and with all the special regulations and actions taken that might be appropriate for such a special train. BrH = 16 is basically off the charts for normal conditions. It would be the equivalent of driving a BR185 with 5 or 6 fully loaded 90t wagons with their brakes completely turned off.

    I think it is more appropriate to simply assume that the wagon is set to loaded if the briefing indicates it is a loaded train, although that is my personal opinion. One thing to note atm is that all wagons are unloaded in RSN except the Falns wagons. So if you are driving a Shimmns train (loaded or empty) it will act like an empty train with retardation closer to that of an empty train or PZB M.

    EDIT: Actually, I lied. It seems like the wagons in the Muff-timetables are not all empty, so only the RSN default timetables are all empty.

    Here are real world figures for some select wagons:
    Wagon name | Empty Mass | Empty brake mass | Laden mass | Laden brake mass
    Habbiins 27t 27t up to 90t up to 58t (P)
    Falns 24.1t 28t 90t 58t
    Shimmns 20.5t 27t or 20.5t(P) 90t 51t or 58t(P)
    Zans (tank) 23t 24t or 26t 90t 59t

    P means proportional or brake mass will match laden mass up to a maximum value
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
  12. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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  13. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    Talking about the service DB 81101 on RSN
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-09-17 19-25-34.png Loco max designed speed is "140" (140Km/h).
    I suppose the loco brake weight is the "90t"...what is "P" and why we have to use the "P" value instead of for example the "R" with "126t" ?

    And here we have the car (x25)
    Train Sim World 2® 2020-09-17 19-24-45.png
    Where, If I dont miss, the "100" under the DB its the car max designed speed: max 100km/h.
    Where is exactly the car brake weight (empty and full)? May be the 24.100kg aka 24.1t?

    Anyway, also if we try with (25*58)cars brake weight + 90loco brake weight = 1540t total train brake weight -> (1540 / 4680 train mass) * 100 = 32 Brake Percentage, the BRH looks very low for the PZB/BHR referements (under 66, over 66). Maybe because (TSW) train brakes are a bit over powered? I don't know.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  14. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I recently downloaded this file from the official DB website, what to read some things, because I also have confusion in my head.
     

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  15. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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  16. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    The R-value is for when R-brake (Rapid) is used, this will only be used for passenger trains or when the locomotive is single engine, and perhaps some special occasions such as when special high-speed container trains and postal trains are run. Actually you shouldn't always use the P-value. Use these rules:

    Train-Wagonmass: Brakesetting Loco /Wagons
    800t P
    800t-1200t GP
    1200t-1600t Loco + first 5 waggons: G / Rest in P (called Lange zug iirc)
    1600t-2500t Loco + first 5 waggons: G / Rest in P
    2500t-4000t Loco + first 5 waggons: G / Rest in P

    Also, there is an alternative way to decide the BrH of the train:
    Take your train and accelerate it to around 110-120 (PZB isolated). Then when on flat grade drag the brake lever to VB (full service) while holding the dynamic brake release button so that only air brakes are used. Then when you pass 100km/h start timing and then record the time it took to stop from 100 km/h.

    Your retardation (gamma) will be 100/time/3.6

    Now take the gamma value and plug it into this equation:
    BrH = 52840*gamma/(385.8 + gamma*55.56) - 10

    This is the official UIC way of doing it for a wagon that is rated at 100 km/h.

    Example: DB 83102 has a retardation of 0.76 in full service, plugging that into the above equation gives
    BrH = 83

    EDIT: I will make a small script if people are interested, then you can simply open the command line, type in retardation and get BrH.

    EDIT2: I just tested the BR155 DB83121 Heavy Tanker (I presume MSB wagons aren't yet in the game so coal wagons are used instead?) and I got the same retardation as with the mixed freight train above: around 0.77-0.78m/s^2 so a BrH of around 84-85. I should point out that this is most likely about 30% too strong since the real BrH would be closer to 64 (divide retardations not BrH since it is not exactly linear) which would give a retardation of 0.59.
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2020
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  17. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    P = passenger train, R = express train (higher brake pressure), R + Mg express train + magnetic track brake, G = Freight train (brakes with slow braking development).
     
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  18. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Okay, I made a small executable from my python code. It takes the time it took the train to stop from it's design Vmax and then calculates a BrH and gives the PZB mode (Zugart). Basically the only thing you need to do is to brake the train in question from it's design Vmax, make sure that the the brake cylinder has reached full pressure when passing through the Vmax and that no electric brakes are used (comma key iirc) then time the deceleration and plug it into the program.

    Downloaded here.
    I would suggest to run a virus check on the file with your antivirus. I was not able to upload the file to google drive because google drive gave a false positive. These false positives are a *known issue* with the converter (Pyinstaller) I used to convert the python file to executable. I'm confident that both my computer and especially the file is clean, but you know, do your own due diligence if you are worried.

    EDIT: Also if you encounter any bugs with the program, I'd love feedback. It's quite primitive so not much can go wrong hehe.
     
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  19. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Also, feel free to add PZB modes for services in TSW 2 if you want to, I will put them into the first post :)
     
  20. CC Johnson

    CC Johnson Active Member

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    Decent explanation, thanks.
    But to be honest, U is a nightmare. I tried this recently, and for U you have to brake under 55km/h every time to get a speed reduction, even if the new speed is 70. Absolute pain.
    For gameplay reasons, I don't think I will go realistic.
     
  21. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Only with active 1000Hz magnet <55 kph :)
     
  22. CC Johnson

    CC Johnson Active Member

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    Yeah, but on RSN, these are everywhere. and everytime you have to reduce to 70, you actually have to reduce to under 55, which is kinda hard with a lot of cargo (700t+), so my last run had 5 "Zwangsbremsungen" (enforced brakes) though I tried my very best. I have to add that I only try to brake when I see the distant signal and not a lot before as not to loose too much time.
     
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  23. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Short addition: If you brake below 95 kmh before approaching a speed reduction, you eventually dont activate the 1000hz and you can go on with track speed :)
     
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  24. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    This harmonizes nicely with the maximum permissible speed of such heavily loaded wagons - usually, probably max 100 kph.
     
  25. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Not sure how you are getting Zwangsbremsung since all the RSN freight trains brake like they are empty ;)
    One issue might be if you are driving the BR155 and you're in notch 30 and come around a corner and see a Lf6 speed limit warning with AWS magnet, then you might still be in throttle a good way after passing it. This would come down to route knowledge.

    Try dropping 1 bar of air (step 4 I think in the BR185.2) slightly before the signal/sign and then release the brakes when you get to 75km/h, they should still bring you down below 55 km/h but release before the whole train has stopped :D

    But yeah, G + brake in combination with PZB U is a pain, but it gives you a challenge at least.
     
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  26. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    A good system working is for the BR 185.2: When you see speed reduction, apply full energy brakes and full train brakes. When you are at 70 kmh, release the air brakes with the energy brakes still applied. This should throw you below 60 or 50 in time. For the BR 155, replace the energy brake with the loco brake and proceed with the same procedure. Remember that the air brakes apply on the whole train, so it needs some time to apply and to release :)
     
  27. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I tested the loaded coal train on RSN. First off it seems like the briefing is more wrong than the actual weight of the train. Acceleration of the train implied a train weight closer to 80t per wagon, maybe slightly more.

    The brakes are still way too strong though. Stopping from 100 km/h in Zwangsbremsung gives a retardation of 0.75m/s^2 without electric braking. My app gives the BrH = 82 which can use PZB M. In reality this would be around BrH = 73 if all wagons are partially loaded to 80t and 64 if all wagons are fully loaded.

    I think that if you test going into full air brake + full electric* brake at 100 km/h and then release at 70 km/h with electric brakes still applied your final speed will be closer to 35km/h which is a bit too much. If you don't believe me, try it and check what the speed is after the train has stopped decelerating.

    EDIT: I tried it and the final speed even when electric brake was released at 60 km/h was 0 ;)

    EDIT2: I tried going into step 4 of the air brake (BP = 4.0 bar) just before the signal and then releasing at 75km/h. The speed at 38s was 54km/h (not really safe in case there is a slightly up gradient) and final speed was 45km/h. The best thing is to use the HUD speed warning or your route knowledge to begin braking earlier so you can release earlier and not lose as much speed, but manage to slow down in a safe manner. When I say safe I mean in terms of not tripping the PZB Zwangsbremsung.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2020
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  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    TSW2020 or TSW2?

    I do not know how to understand the information from DTG about the partial implementation of Adhesion in Preserved Routes, but the BR155 and the theoretical, and in fact impossible, almost 5k tons - it is difficult to accelerate even on a dry RSN. Braking may indeed be a bit devoid of inertia, but these are colleagues from the rail-business, and there are some here, they would have to comment :)
     
  29. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    TSW2 preserved collection RSN. I don't have TSW2020 installed atm. TSW2020 had variable braking force vs speed (due to coefficient of friction between brake shoe and wheel tread depending on speed) but not wheel slip/lockup implementation (CoF between wheel and tracks).

    TSW2/TSW2020 CoF dependence for the brakes is incorrect (I describe this in more detail) but only partially relevant to the numbers I posted above.

    If DTG patched the brake friction physics, the average brake force over the whole velocity interval (100-0 for example) would be lower so maybe the freight trains would get more realistic average retardation, but you'd have to test it. There is a problem though that all the freight wagons have nearly the same BrH ;). Habbiins wagons will probably have better BrH than the Falns and MSB Tank wagons. If DTG release container trains they will also have higher BrH.
     
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  30. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Added a link to a collection of brake weight values and their freight wagon types.
     
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  31. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    I took photos, marking the brake scales
    IMG_20200918_160613.jpg
     

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  32. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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  33. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Starting to rework the SKA freight services and adding services of other routes.
     
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  34. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    There is some thought that has to go into interpreting these numbers if you are DTG (or anyone trying to simulate the train) this is because the E and Mg-brakes are not part of the airbrake system, so if you calculate a BrH from the R+E+Mg and give that corresponding brakeforce to the airbrakes you end up with the situation of the SKA ICE3: it brakes like the Mg brake is applied even when in full service (not emergency).

    For drivers and users however you would (to the best of my knowledge) divide the Mg+R (or Mg+E+R) number by the service weight (higher of the two weights) to get your "official" BrH and then compare it against the PZB Zugart (U,M,O) and "MBrH" (mindestbremshundertstel or minimum brake percentage) for the route to get your maximum allowed speed (this value might not be available publicly but there are tables "bremstafel" that you can google and find out your Vmax).

    The official (Mg+R and +E for locos etc) BrH will be much higher than the R-BrH, which is a good thing because most trains (ICE1 included) does not have sufficient BrH with just airbrakes alone to be allowed to run at 160 km/h without LZB. So if the magnetic brakes are out of service for an ICE1 it will be limited to something like 150km/h or lower depending on highest gradient (for 1000m signalling distance).

    As an example the airbrakes give the ICE1 (BR401) a stopping distance of 900-950m in full service, without Mg-brakes, from 160 km/h. So there is not a lot of margin of error.

    Nice!
     
  35. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for sharing. Very interesting background information. :)
     
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  36. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    All right, I realize I'm dense: but exactly which numbers on the side of the car/loco do you use?
     
  37. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Guys, regarding the PZB modes I found that in any mode there´s always a first active speed check at 85 km/h and 23s (which is the one for passenger trains) no matter what mode you set, and then afterwards you have the other specific checks for each freight mode (70 or 55). I think this could be wrongly implemented in game as it means for a medium freight you need to reduce from 120 to 85 in 23s, which is not always really possible on downhills, even at full braking power, instead of going from 120 to 70 in 29s directly. The same for heavy trains, requiring you to go from 100 to 85 in 23s (which could be also hard to achieve on downhills) instead of from 100 to 55 in 38s directly. The other speed limits for each mode work well. It´s only that one which is not working as expected. At least I didn´t find in the wikis any source that explained this to be the expected behaviour.

    I made some tests and sent the info to DTG as well: for a M or U type the brakes were applied after 23s if you were at 90km/h for instance. I think that intermediate check should not be there and only the final speed check at the mode speed limit should be active (so at 70 or at 55). This is a problem as the initial speed reduction on heavy and long trains is not fast indeed, as air needs to reach the last wagon and it could sometimes take up to 10s or 15s to happen (so almost a half or those required 23s for the initial speed check). Once you are braking then it´s easier to reach your mode speed targets.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  38. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Query: if some or all of the wagons have a vMax of 100, does that automatically make the train a Class U?
     
  39. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    If one of your wagons has a vMax of 100, vMax of the train is automatically 100.
     
  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I get that: the question is whether PzB mode U applies even if the Brh is over 66?
     
  41. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    I would guess it would be PZB mode M although I cant say for sure.
     
  42. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    No, PZB mode depends on Brh (Bremshunderstel) and brake settings - and not on max speeds a train can do - it actually works the other way round, if your Brh are too low you are not allowed to go up to "full speed" your consist might allow (e.g. you may only go at 100 although your train could technically run at 120).
     
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  43. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    All right, I am trying to get my head around all of this. I do have a couple of notes:

    1) the apparent setting of the car brake handle isn't anything to go on; on the Falns it always reads Empty, because the game only uses a single graphical model; there isn't a second image file with the handle set to Full. The game however does observe the difference, which AFAICT comports with the route description: DB81104 (loaded coal hoppers) gives a gross train weight of 2760.5t, whereas DB81204 (the same train returning empty) weighs just 711.5t.

    2) DTG apparently changed some things in the TSW2 port; the OP says 81101 has 25 cars, but in front of me today it has 20.

    3) I still don't know where to find freight car brake weights, on the cars themselves. (Except where they are conveniently marked on the brake handle plate, which usually they aren't).
     
  44. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    So, running with a consist of empty coal hoppers, you would be in Mode M but capped to a vMax of 100 km/h?
     
  45. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    On a YouTube stream by Matt regarding PZB modes he is running the ICE3M and happens to state that on MSN all freights at the PZB U limit and further to that all the brakes are on the goods timing mode so all freights at Vmax 90kmph on the route.
    I was very surprised to hear that.
     
  46. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Strange, since in TSW every loco on MSB (and other German) freight services always is set to M by default; you have to set U manually. And sometimes M is obviously correct, there are some services hauling empties, trains which crank up the Spessart Ramp un-banked without breathing hard.
     
  47. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    The BR 143 and the BR 182 have them set to O so that is not completey correct. A general rule of thumb is anything heavier than 1600 is PZB U.
     
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  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I think that's because the 143 and 182 often pull passenger services
     
  49. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Actually, the 182 is more used in freight trains in germany than in passenger services. In austria, on the other hand, you see a ton of Taurus in passenger service.
     
  50. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    I think actually the opposite is true. While the 182s were mainly used as a freight loco with DB for the first 10 or so years in service being operated under the Railion Livery. Since around 2010 however they are all on DoSTO RB services out of Berlin.

    In Austria you have some Taurus on Railjet services and other passenger services the majority are on freight workings.
     
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