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Quality Assurance

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Daniel Bloch, Apr 5, 2018.

  1. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    I am wondering why it's so hard for DTG to have a good QA?
    Why are fixes not tested or looked at after they are implemented?

    To examples from the latest patch.
    This is from the changelog

    Environment
    • New York Switcher Scenario - Added correct intro card
    Locomotives
    • GP40-2 - Fixed rear ditch lights

    New York switcher scenario:
    Copy & paste without thinking from heavy haul, it says Cumberland at scenario start.

    GP40 rear ditch lights:
    They are now the second time in the changelog as "fixed" they are not!!!! Why don't anybody at DTG load the game and look at the lights?

    It took me after I downloaded the patch and installed it 2 minutes to find this. So I am wondering how many time the QA "team" (if there is any) invest in the quality assurance after they implement fixes?
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2018
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  2. SamYeager270

    SamYeager270 Well-Known Member

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    I rather suspect the changelog is written by Jay/Steve based on info provided to them which probably means the only QA it receives is by the person writing it. In terms of the actual QA team it's worth bearing in mind that they will likely have a list of issues that they have been told to check which will be the major items and not necessarily all of the artwork. In addition they have probably been checking multiple builds and we don't know how much time they have been given to do the QA nor how knowledgeable they are about TSW and trains generally or even how many people are in QA.

    Could the QA be much better? Absolutely; however the driver for improving QA needs to come from higher up in the chain than the QA team and doesn't only involve the QA team. For example the dev team's subsystem testing may need improving as well as how well the QA testing instructions are written. I've only been involved with business systems QA in the past rather than games but I know that QA is a lot more difficult, complicated and time consuming than many might think.
     
  3. Nuts

    Nuts Member

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    Everybody needs to quit making excuses for these guys. They need to up their game or get out of it. Doesnt matter how hard any of this is....bottom line is we're buying broken products, time and time again, that dont live up to the marketing or advertising, and IF they get fixed, it's literally years down the road. If they get fixed, cause they often dont.

    This is SHAMEFUL!
     
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  4. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Why do you keep buying what you presume to be defective products? Just to complain about them? Some folks seem to complain without having bought, of course, thus saving money and getting their kicks out of griping, too: a win-win situation for them, I suppose, but not so much for the rest of us.
     
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  5. Nuts

    Nuts Member

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    I suppose I had faith that they would eventually do the right thing. I recently came to the realization that they wont be. And I wont be buying anything else they ever put out.
     
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  6. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    I agree with all of you that the quality of DTG leaves lots to be desired.
    And yes, there are too many excuses being made.
    But ask yourself: Do you have a choice?
    If you want to play train simulation, there is no other software remotely close to TSXX/TSW, at least to my knowledge. Your choice is to play or not play train simulator.
    If you don't really want to play train simulation, then... well... to put it nicely... get out of here.
    There is no objective in complaining, as you won't accomplish anything. All that will happen is that DTG will get annoyed and slow down the development of content. If you truly desire perfect simulation, help DTG by making detailed bug reports of the problems you encounter. Cactusjuice's work here on the forum leads by example. I'll go so far to claim that he has helped the most regarding the NEC DLC.
    I hope this motivates you all to aid the development of TSW and TSXX.
    Thanks to all of you,
    ProfCreeptonius

    PS: I'm aware that there is stuff like MSTS for people that only want to enjoy the scenery, and by all means, if all you care about is the looks, then choose other software. But the functionality of TSXX/TSW is unrivaled.
     
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  7. Nuts

    Nuts Member

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    Pure Baloney. First, stop protecting DTG. They arent your friend, they're a software company. We all pay good money for product that is not delivering on advertising, or, even common definitions of "complete software". Even if you know nothing about the intricacies of railroading, you would pick up on many of the bugs and glitches present in their DLC. We're not being too picky to expect smooth gameplay and fully realized/finished software.

    Saying "there's no other choice, so just be happy with it" is an incredibly apathetic attitude to have. In that respect you dont strive for anything better and diminish the perceived value of a dollar. No thank you. I dont demand perfection, but I do demand effort. Right now, there's a question of effort on DTG's part. They seem to be totally ok with putting out half-baked software...with the ploy that "we're working on fixing it and it takes time" when in reality, they're dragging their feet on fixes so they can focus on the next half-baked DLC. It's their operating procedure, and we feel like we're getting ripped off.

    If you're happy with what's happening, that's fine. It's your choice. But it's not your place to tell people who feel ripped off that they need to suck it up and not complain. Live and let live.

    I do agree that Cactusjuice is leading by example and he's doing a fine job of it. I wish I had the knowledge and patience and time to do what he is doing. But I dont. I just know things are wrong and I want to voice my frustration.

    Because waiting 12+ months for a fix is absurd in every way. Shame on DTG.
     
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  8. RMNRWY

    RMNRWY New Member

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    Ditto! Nuts couldn't have said it better.
     
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  9. KennethT

    KennethT New Member

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    Agree.
     
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  10. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I know DTG say they have separate departments working on bug fixes and DLC which doesn’t affect progress but surely with the core game still broken and buggy, any new DLC which is released will have to bugs passed on over to it?

    So the more DLC Is released, the longer it’ll take to fix the ever increasing list of bugs across the different trains and routes.

    I wish DTG would prioritise fixing the core game. This is why we always end up with buggy DLC which is rushed and half complete and DTG know this and it is clear in the live streams but quantity over quality because ££ for them.
     
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  11. NorthRail1

    NorthRail1 Well-Known Member

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    DTG needs to make more dlc for Train Sim World as they are a business, not a charity. Without the dlc, they wouldn't be able to afford to pay the developers, which would mean no one would be employed to fix the bugs. Because of this, it is better that they keep releasing dlc and that we keep buying the dlc.

    As ProfCreeptonius said, for those of you who have been put off TSW by the bugs and no longer want to support Dovetail Games, MSTS is still out there to buy, a 17-year old game with rubbish graphics in comparison to TSW, and no bug support as there are no longer any first-party developers as the studio which created MSTS was closed due to budget cuts. Out of those two options, I would definitely choose TSW.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  12. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Active Member

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    There is also TSxxx, bugged too.
    And never repaired, since time.
     
  13. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but is making a good train sim without major bugs and and good reviews in steam not selling better then making a buggy game with bad reviews and tons of buggy DLC that no one's buy?

    Sure they make money with the DLCs but also with the base game, but if nobody buys TSW because of the bugs they won't sell the DLC too.

    So far only GWE has a positive rating in steam, but I wonder why. The route is pretty nice but to short, and there are still to many bugs like the sound issues, still no flashing signals, routing sometimes really is strange (cargo train routed over the high speed track) and many many more.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
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  14. pschlik

    pschlik Well-Known Member

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    Posts like this drive me mad. Just because DTG is a company doesn’t mean they are excused from making high quality stuff. Plenty of games companies have survived and thrived off of making high quality stuff, even if it is infrequent, and even when they only make one game ever and continue focusing on it without any DLC involved at all! (Factorio has never had a DLC, but it’s still there. SCS only releases a few major DLC in a year, but they are doing fine. Subset Games (FTL) has made only 2 games, and they are a lengend in the games community.) Or maybe those companies are just charities, huh? I’d highly doubt they are any different than DTG at all.

    Point is, there are more ways to make money than spewing out gobs and gobs of stuff. It is extremely shallow and shortsighted business sense to think that making a large quantity of products is the only way to make money. And that’s shallow because it forgets about customers. When new customers arrive, stuff that has already been made and paid for can continue to make new money, and DTG is doing a very good job at annoying customers (whether you think they are justified or not, they have an impact!), pushing off both new people and long time followers, which is undoubtedly hurting business on the old routes, making new routes seem to be the only way to make money.

    Yeah those other games companies have more following than DTG, but DTG isn’t there trying to increase following in order to increase income....
    It’s a vicious cycle that DTG is getting themselves trapped on the wrong side of... Few customers -> best way to make money is releasing more stuff for those few customers to put in money another time -> make so much stuff that devs are overworked and can’t make it good -> stuff gets a bad reputation -> lose customers -> few customers -> best way to.... Goes on and on, theoretically to the point of complete disaster.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
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  15. Jeannot41

    Jeannot41 Active Member

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    Because there are 3 types of transport.
    Quick trip, suburban transportation, and freight.
    Three different locomotives (electric or diesel).
     
  16. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    Yes the three types of loco makes the route looking busy, but onestly driving the HST from Paddington to Reading or driving the 13(!!) freight services from A to B is boring like hell.
    For the HST this route is to short, it's like put the throttle lever to max wait a half hour and brake. That is the only thing you do there. ATP is still missing too.
    The only interesting for me are the class 166 services, and they are still missing the 6 car services that DTG "forgot" to add or just did it on purpose to make the development easier.
    The still existing sound issues in the class 166 are killing for me the fun. The engine sounds are not hearable and if you turn your speakers louder your ears will falls off with the way to loud door sounds. So I stopped playing GWE until this is fixed, what we all know will never happen.
    Just sad.
     
    Last edited: Apr 11, 2018
  17. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    Nuts I'm stunned by the aggression in your post? Perhaps you didn't quite read mine in enough detail - I didn't want to dispute your opinion or say it's 'wrong' or anything similar. I just added a couple of thoughts and listed the objective consequences? Perhaps rethink your arguments, I don't quite see how they relate to my post.

    Daniel Bloch Weirdly, I prefer the quiet sounds
     
  18. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Great Western Express doesn’t have any electric locos or EMU’s. The wires are not used at all in the game and is just there for cosmetic reasons. Also with the time it was set in (during the electrification works) the wires only go up Airport Junction, which is also completely unused.

    Makes me think of DTG did it in this timescale so they purposely didn’t have to include any other electric trains.
    I doubt the wires will ever be extended (until we have access to an editor which will be..?) and we won’t get any EMU’s for the line.

    Also, conflicting assets used along this route - supposedly built during the electrification works, why do we only have green Great Western Railway HSTs and 166s but all the station signs and lighting are in First Great Western purple branding? This included London Paddington and Reading (Network Rail) and Royal Oak (London Underground)

    Once again until we have access to our own editor, I wouldn’t count on DTG spending time and effort on existing routes when they are busy building brand new ones.
     
  19. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    [QUOTE/]Daniel Bloch Weirdly, I prefer the quiet sounds[/QUOTE]

    I’m almost convinced that the sounds of the 166 are made up, or perhaps from come different sources, and not recorded from a real life Class 166 itself. They sound nothing like how a 166 should sound, and despite DTG saying there are issues with the Unreal Engine sound, the major issue is with these recordings.

    Also major stations sound like a ghost town - are we in the middle of the countryside or in a major city? I think the former describes it the most accurate so far.
     
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  20. Trainmania100

    Trainmania100 Active Member

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    Some of things wrong are hard to go unmissed though, there's often some issues which are so obvious it makes you scratch your head whether they even tested the route at all
     
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  21. Shukal

    Shukal Well-Known Member

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    DTG adding some of the branch lines and a 387 wouldn't be unreasonable.

    Oh, they do. Turn your bass up/boost your bass and you'll see. I agree though that the 166 sounds fairly bad under normal circumstances.
     
  22. Kuu Lightwing

    Kuu Lightwing Active Member

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    Factorio devs are maniacs, though. I'm sure Factorio as a game might be simpler than TSW, but it has stunning performance, able to handle absolutely ridiculous numbers of entities, has very very few bugs - I'm pretty sure that in my 400+ hours I haven't encountered any and I'm playing the experimental branch of the game... and that is an Early Access game. I think very few devs could be compared to Factorio devs in regard of game quality...

    But yeah, TSW... I mean, I'd imagine DTG doesn't even have to rush much for TSW DLCs as they can still milk TS1 for money. Like if they intend to replace TS1 with TSW eventually, then it should be developed as a solid core with good physics, good graphics and interesting service mode. But... oh well, it is what it is. I hate when people bash the developers and stuff like that, but I also hate how TSW is dying because of this attention to it.
     
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  23. Daniel Bloch

    Daniel Bloch Well-Known Member

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    The only hope I have right now is that TSW stays that long enough alive until we see a good editor and finally see some quality 3rd party content. But that is some years from now in the future.

    The "legendary DTG quality" isn't worth the money. I would never buy a TSW DLC at full price, I allways preordered the route DLCs with a discount. The quality and content so far is in my opinion not worth the full price.
     
    Last edited: Apr 12, 2018
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  24. FileTrekker

    FileTrekker Member

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    Why do you have to keep blindly defending DTG despite the fact they release broken, half baked and rushed products at exorbitant prices, and downvote anyone who dares demand a better product for their hard earned money?
     
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  25. Juxen

    Juxen Active Member

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    All $8,000 for it, including DLC's.
     
  26. ProfCreeptonius

    ProfCreeptonius Well-Known Member

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    Hello Community!

    My totally, absolutely, undeniable opinions on the matter with a killer ending.
    Sarcasm detector explodes

    Nope, it's not. I agree. (My opinion) That's why they have so many sales. If you think the entire game is trash, refer to my first post.

    You're not supposed to buy all DLC's at full price, if I'm not mistaken Matt has even confirmed this. I suggest you wait for sales (justified by their frequency) and then let someone of the community tell you what DLC is actually worth buying, that way you get the best and don't waste any money. In my experience about 70% of the DLC is an absolute no-go and. Let's not make a generalisation though that DTG never releases very quality add-ons, take the Medway Valley line as counterexample.

    First, I absolutely agree that we shouldn't downvote each-other, this is a very structured discussion. Upvote for that ;)

    But, in my opinion, your demands won't achieve anything (see PS) , however let's get back to some shameless self-promotion. If you or anyone has certain DLC in TSXX they deem low-quality, please state them, since I have a truckload of free third party enhancements for most DLCs in TSXX to make your experience more enjoyable and actually worth the money. I recommend you also check out the discord server in my signature and contact me personally to allow me to help you to the best of my abilities. As for TSW, I'm afraid we'll have to wait for the editor to get any serious enhancements. However, some file modding has given me a couple of nice scenarios for RT :(

    A few final words to my first post which seems to have caused lots of heat.
    I might have been inaccurate in my expression, but I'll repeat it now to make clear: I am neither defending nor accusing DTG of anything in any of my posts. I'm telling you all what you can/can't achieve and how you can/can't achieve that in the current situation with the sole intention to reduce unnecessary arguments, tension and a general bad atmosphere on the forums. I'm also not demanding anything of anyone in any of my posts. My posts only have an informative intention.

    Hope this gets me out of the firing line :) ducks
    Cheers
    -ProfCreeptonius

    PS: This is not the first discussion of the kind - in the early days of Railworks in the last decade (yes I have been playing TSXX for more then 8 years) simmlar things happened, though no prices ever changed, so it's doubtful that anything will actually happen. So please, before complaining, consider the (im)possible consequences.
     
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