Question/concern About New Mini-hud And It's Distance Bar

Hi.
DTG Matt , sorry for tagging you, but you're probably the person, who can answer my question.

I really like the idea behind new Mini-HUD -- to give player less information, but still enough to allow driving without knowing route inside-out. But I'm afraid that new HUD might be somewhat unusable in some situations, mainly my concern is about the new distance bar.

In the last stream it was mentioned that distance meter on the new Mini-HUD will activate 1 km away from stopping point. I like that idea, but I feel like 1 km warning will not be enough in many situations, so it'll defeat the whole purpose of having a HUD at all. There are situations, when you need to already be braking, when 1 km away from stopping point.

So, I wondered, whether distance of the bar activation is always 1 km? I feel like it should be somewhere around 1.5-2 km or should depend on the route and the train, since a lot of trains won't be able to stop in just 1 km.

I don't like making bold statements that are not supported by facts, so instead of doing something productive with my Saturday I spent 3.5 hours driving in circles around Training Center and testing braking performance of different trains. What I learned is that 1 km warning can only be viable with EPB- and Dynamics-equipped trains at speeds of 75mph/120kph or less. With anything faster or with worse brakes players will struggle to stop in time.

While testing, I was making stops in perfect conditions (dry and flat track, full service braking all the way to 0), so in real-life situations distances will be noticeably longer (due to more realistic and less aggressive driving, additional time of 1-3 seconds needed to react on the distance-bar activating, descending grades, bad weather, and so on).

All in all, I tested 13 different trains with different weights, lengths, types of brakes and so on. I did not test fastest trains such as ICE or TGV since they are equipped with safety systems which make HUD unnecessary. Below are results divided by speed ranges.

100kph/60mph
Class 33 + 5 Mk1 coaches (60 mph, vacuum brakes) = 810m
Class 101 (60 mph, 3 cars, vacuum brakes) = 460m

120-130kph/70-80mph
Class 395 (120 kph, AC power) = 540m
Class 395 (70 mph, DC power) = 585m
BR143 + 5 Dostos (120 kph) = 450m
F40PH + 6 Gallery cars (79 mph) = 630m
ACS64 + 9 Amfleet coaches (70 mph) = 585m

140-150kph/90mph
Class 395 (90 mph, DC power) = 855m (got bored of waiting for it to get to 100mph on DC-power, so stopped from 90mph)
BR110 + 5 N-wagen (140 kph) = 405m (proof that it has way too good braking performance, since it stops from 140 kph much faster than anything else stops from 120 kph)

160kph/100mph
Class 395 (160 kph, AC) = 1080m
BR112 + 7 Dostos (160 kph) = 990m
BR146 + 4 Dostos (160 kph) = 675m (it stopped very fast, feels like dynamic brakes on it are way too powerful)
BR101 + 11 IC coaches (160 kph) = 900m
BR425 (160 kph) = 1080m
BR103 + 12 IC coaches (160 kph) = 945m

160kph+/100mph+
HST (125 mph) = 1530m
ACS64 + 9 Amfleet Cars (120 mph) = 1620m
BR101 + 11 IC Cars (200 kph) = 1350m (not really applicable, since LZB will slow you down in advance)
BR103 + 12 IC Cars (180 kph, couldn't physically get it to 200) = 1170m (not really applicable, since LZB will slow you down in advance)

Remember, all those numbers are in perfect conditions, so add 200-300 meters to make them more realistic.

As we can see, 120 kph seems to be maximum speed, at which you can consistently stop with 1 km warning in realistic situation. Anything faster means that you're gambling with fate.

Worst offenders are, of course, HST and ACS64, which are fast, but aren't guided to a stop by safety systems. So, driving GWE, BPE or NYT with no route knowledge and Mini-HUD enabled would be absolutely impossible. The same goes for many fast non-LZB German routes, like HRR or HHL. Also, anything with vacuum brakes can be problematic.

 

Wow you did all of that ?! I agree that 1km is way too short. It would be great if it depend from the speed your train is at.

 

A US freight needs to start slowing at 1 - 1.5 miles out.

 

Yup. Pretty impressed at that post. That's how to create a feedback loop.

 

I feel like an easy solution would be to just allow the player to choose what is showing.

You could have all parts of the hud as a selectable option and then select or deselect them in the options. We already have this for things like signal aspects and upcoming speed changes so it must be possible?

For instance:
Speedometer Large
Speedometer Small
Brake Gauges
Steam pressure Gauge
Safety System Indicator
Distance to next objective (with current number system)
Current Task
Action Points

 

It's not like it was a chore I had fun doing that.

I didn't even touch American freight, since it's in a ligue of it's own when it comes to necessary level of knowledge. It requires thinking miles ahead of a train, so relying on HUD alone is probably unwise.

From what Matt said in a stream, it might be how things are implemented in TSW4 right now (but don't quote me on that, I might've misunderstood what had been said). Problem is that I like having a bar instead of current digital readout, but I want to have longer warning.

 

What a brilliant bit of work. I didn’t pick up on the 1km setting so now I’m intrigued as to DTG’s response.
I definitely agree 1km is nowhere near enough. Thanks for posting this, very helpful buddy.

 

I agree that's my one disappointment with the mini hud. I view the hud as my "PTC screen" keeping track of the information a real engineer/driver would know, but I don't need to because this is a game. I still view the distance to next objective as critical information. Having a warning bar still requires you to learn the route and train, something I may not always want to do - especially if its something outside of my core interest routes. It's also useful for judging estimated time to next station (since allotted time and actual time may vary) which I sometimes use to decide if I want to continue now or save and come back. If/when I buy TSW4, the lack of this honestly will probably keep me from using the mini hud.

The current hud and new one display the next objective time twice - all the way on the left, and then in the objective text. I'd much rather replace that second occurrence with the distance remaining (and to add, an option to make the units stay in tenths of the major units, miles or kilometers, so there's less countdown distraction)

 

I personally find the minimized hud unneccessary especially when it still shows the speed because it's also infront of you on the cab and you can also just use control+numbers to remove seperate HUD segments but idk honestly

 

I just re-watched the roadmap portion about the mini-hud. Referencing the screen shot in the quoted post, the barber pole (striped vertical pole) in the upper left, will shorten and change colour, starting at 1 km. The area in the upper right is the track monitor which shows the next 2 km of track. I am hoping the next station or stop point shows up in this track monitor. That will give you warning to start braking early, then use the barber pole to fine tune the braking.
I hope this interpretation is right.

 

I think what they need to do is have the "barber shop" bar be green if you are more than 4Km away from a stop, yellow if you are between 4Km and 1Km, and if you are under 1Km then the bar becomes orange or red and starts decreasing in size.

 

I really like this idea.
But maybe orange at 2 or 1.5 km, then shrinking starting at 1 km..

 

I think it's an improvement. Don't really like the aesthetics but the functionality is way better. In the big hud the information is all over the screen which makes your eyes jump from screen corner to screen corner

 

okay that makes more sense now

 

I guess the distance bar will be a huge improvement. I think I saw something like that a while ago and was thinking this would suit TSW way better than the distance indicators we have today.

DTG Matt Does the speed limit also change color when you start speeding?

 

Perfect! This will be my standard HUD

 

I too think this mini-HUD is a brilliant innovation, though like the suggestion from Inkar to have a green/yellow/red barber pole based on distance out. One question, though - in that 2 km look ahead bar I see in the screenshot above, I see that there are two green signals showing. I prefer to drive without any advance warning of signal colours - are these always green, just letting you know a signal is coming or are they accurate reflections of the upcoming state of them? If the latter, can that be turned off? I would think that if someone has CTRL-4'd the next signal display off, they're making it pretty clear they don't want to know what it is in advance. (Looking very forward to volumetric fog and trying to spot signals...)

Can't wait to try this out in practice. Come ooooooooon, why isn't it the 21st yet?

Incidentally, my anticipation for the mini-HUD has already changed my driving habits. Until this, I would almost always drive on external camera mounted on the nose of the train, disliking the narrow windows of some cabs. But by doing that, I had to rely on the main HUD to know speed limit and current speed. Now that the mini-HUD is in my future, though, I've been driving exclusively in-cab with the CTRL-5 HUD off, relying only on the speedometer. It means I have to memorize current speed ("Oh, you poor lamb. Here, sit down and have a nice cup of tea for all that mental exertion."), but find it really, really does add to the experience. Well done the guns crew for thinking of the mini-HUD and taking the time to make it.

 

My question on this mini HuD, on UK and US routes, will the distances by in miles not km? Though 1 mile out for stopping is still short when you are going 125 mph on the NEC.

 

Thats a relief to hear it respects the show signal setting. I was a bit concerned how the new HUD would affect these settings. I like an idea of the distance to signal as this is something a real driver would know through route knowledge and training but knowing the aspect long before you can actually see it is a bit of a cheat and unrealistic so I always have that off.

 

I really hope we get more customization options for the mini HUD in the future! For example, I really don’t need the gradient indicator, but would prefer a display of my current speed instead since it’s often difficult (and in the case of some steam locos literally impossible) to figure out your current speed without the HUD.

 

I've been playing this game for years and had completely forgotten about that setting! Currently flying down the Bakerloo line blissfully ignorant of what's ahead, thank you!

Something you said in that last stream stuck with me - how at times this can be a bit like watching numbers dropping to zero. With the HUD set to off, memorizing current speed and using only the speedometer, I'm finding I'm better able to get a feel for braking based on the rate of people and things passing me on the station, not even looking at the numbers anymore. It's very fun.

FWIW, I spent 25-ish years sailing in submarines and remember the old hands giving me advice about being on the helm. There, you're balancing course, depth, speed, and...critically, angle. Lots of gauges to look at aside from the obvious, such as rate of depth change and angle of the forward and after hydroplanes, so it's easy to get swamped by numbers. They told me to relax and feel the boat with my bum. While I thought it strange at first, the point they were trying to make was to feel whether or not the seat was tipping forward or back, pressing up into you or dropping away underneath you. By being spatially aware of that, you could often anticipate a few seconds ahead better than the gauges could. This reminds me of that quite a lot. If DTG ever put out a submarine simulator, recommend a 'BumController' rather than a Raildriver, lol.

 

I now try and drive with signal distance off (have always turned the aspect off) but it is useful to still have the option.
The main thing I’m hoping the new HUD will remove is those nasty sudden speed limit changes when you get a 60 followed almost immediately by a 20 or similar with no time to brake.

 

Ah yes! I hate that. This should solve that as well! Thank you DTG!

 

Excellent.

 

Will the bar on the top right always show 2km? or will it change with speed like TSC? Something like: 0-80km/h it shows 1km; 80-160 it shows 2km; over 160 it shows 4km?

 

I am wondering the same because a Km means nothing to me. No idea how far it is!

 

1Km is aprox. 0.6 miles. This should help you when you drive in EU countries.

 

Does it matter? 1km when going 100km/h and 1 mile when going 100 mph sounds about equal to me. Equal enough to start your braking curve IMO.

EDIT: I use both metric and imperial (whatever's default for the route/train) and I never find the need to calculate/convert one system to another. Only rare exceptions with the Class 395 on SEHS where a mix of both systems is used.

 

0.6 doesn't calculate easily. 1 mile is roughly 1.5km, to make quick calculation a tad easier.

20mph <--> 30km/h
50mph <--> 80km/h
60mph <--> 100km/h

 

Finally the unit system war begins on this forum. I always wondered why no UK players ever complained about a confusing metric system on the German routes

 

Strange thing is, even when you build a UK (or American) route in TSC or Trainz, everything is metric anyway so it kind of becomes second nature to swap between the two.

 

But if the HUD thing is 2 km and I am going 100 mph that will be confusing as by the time I have worked out roughly what it is I will be at a different distance. It won't actually matter to me yet anyway as apart from the south eastern commuter routes (which I play once in a blue moon) I drive HUDless anyway. I was more getting ready for when BOP (Blackpool, Ormskirk, Preston) was out.

Good on you for knowing both but the first time I used the metric system was after years and years of the imperial units so have absolutely no gauge into how far, like I say, a Km is.

 

I get around that one by not playing the German routes!

I wasn't trying to imply that the imperial system was necessarily better than metric but just that I find metric about as understandable as german once you get over about 100 metres.

Seeing as you were asking though imperial is a much, much better system.

 

I wrote it because I immediately recognised the feeling as on UK route I don't understand a thing about measurements. For UK players the German routes must also feel like they have gibberish units. I always refer to imperial units as fantasy units. Something you would read in a Tolkien story

 

Wouldn't 4 km work better as it is now with the current signal + speed change indicator? 2 km is ok for slower trains, but tight in a faster train like the the upcoming Azuma.
German trains have LZB, American trains have....ATS or ACSEC I think (never figured out that one), but I don't think there is a British equivalent.

 

Come on Matt, that would have been way too easy!

 

But that still does not change the fact that UK players will still see gibberish units on the displays of a German cab. The speed limit is 50mph but the speedometer in the cab doesn't show you what 50mph is just some weird km/h thing

 

Although I was brought up with imperial measurements, I have used metric exclusively for the last twenty-odd years, and now I find imperial a totally illogical and antiquated system! When I eventually return to the UK I’ll have to get used to it again, but at least some of it is metric lol.

 

TSC did change the distance based on speed, in steps. Worked well enough for me. Might even be better than a smooth dynamic transition.

 

I don't think speed restrictions drop that much in one go in the UK. In my experience, there's multiple smaller steps to gradually decrease your speed.

 

Then people should either use the full HUD with speedometer, or not override the units and just use whatever's default on the route. 1km distance when going 100km/h is pretty much the same as 1mile distance when going 100mph. You don't need to convert anything as long as you just use one system, whichever it is.

I don't get why people have so much troubles. I'm used to metric, but I drive my US and UK routes in imperial and it hasn't caused me any issues and I never really need to convert between the two systems.

 

I don't have problems with the metric system I'm just trying to explain how imperial units look to a metric user. The metric system is easy as it makes sense.

 

It only makes sense to a mathematician with all that times 100 or 10 or 1000 or whatever. The imperial system can be put into real life as any old fool knows how long his foot is, or who wide his thumb is or how much land a man and his ox could plough in one day...

Sorry probably gone too far off topic now.

 

Imperial units work fine. Speed signs are in mph. Speedometer is in mph. HUD distance is in miles. Works fine. I see no need to convert anything to metric.

And for any mainland European routes, pretty much the same. Speed signs are in km/h. Speedometer is in km/h. HUD distance is in km. Works fine. I see no need to convert anything to imperial.

I don't see a problem. People enforcing the game to use a specific system (metric or imperial) are just making things unnecessary difficult by adding in an extra conversion.

 

With the new distance bar it will work for me. Speed is easy to read but distances are a guessing game in imperial. I tried not enforcing metric but because the distances are so weird it was too confusing.