Raildriver Early Feedback

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by paul.pavlinovich, Dec 21, 2020.

  1. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I was really pleased to see the update for Raildriver come out in beta and get a chance to play with it and offer feedback.

    Here are some early thoughts for DTG Protagonist DTG Natster and Matt but I couldn't figure out how to tag him here :).
    • Calibration interface in the UI - for someone familiar to RailDriver this is pretty much spot on, intuitive and easy to use - people who have never used RailDriver might need some more direction in what to do
    • Advanced Controls Screen - it would be great to be able to spit out the button allocations that are set up as an image a pdf, a text file, whatever - as it is I had to type them into a document so I could print them for the key labels
    • Issue: Consistency is needed for the keys - don't change them for different trains please - given you need to label them - having to change these labels every time you change locomotive would be just annoying, it would be much better to have keys that are labelled that do nothing on loco X because they're only valid for loco Y and Z
    • The top buttons seem to work well and do what you'd expect
    • Use of reverse, throttle, train brake and independent brake is mostly what you'd expect - the dynamic brake setup in the notch is comparable to other games, but throttle off at the start of the notch is unusual - ok but unusual - I don't think any changes are needed here - being slightly different doesn't matter
    • I appreciate having door controls on the arrows, but there is an Issue - I would like the arrows to be context sensitive and usable to move around when using external cameras or walking
    • Issue: the wiper and lights switches need some work - I know they are actually a potentiometer rather than a switch so are a pain to read but when you turn on or off one of these you get tens, sometimes more notifications of "headlight on"
    • Issue: On the Talent2 the ALERT button if pressed quickly does not dismiss SIFA if held for a while it causes a penalty brake - you have to use Q on the keyboard or disable SIFA
    • Issue: On the Talent2 the headlights and wipers are both mapped to the wiper switch
    • Issue: Everything has a responsive twitchy feel compared to other games but this isn't necessarily bad - it could just mean the implementation is better than other games - maybe wait and see what others think - I reckon I'd get used to it
    The most important feedback I can give is that the implementation is fun, it really makes a big difference to use controls instead of keyboard. Thanks for giving RailDriver some time - knowing you were going to do it is what brought me back to DoveTail with TSW2. I appreciate that you put it in the roadmap, said you would deliver it and kept your word. Good work DoveTail.

    Paul
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  2. tbaac

    tbaac Active Member

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    Agree with most of that. I really like the RD functionality in TSW2 so far. I do think that the door buttons could have better consistency though. The TGV uses the 4-way controller to toggle the left and right doors open or closed whereas the 1972 Stock uses 4 of the blue buttons. I couldn't see a difference in door functionality on the real trains that needed this difference.
    I think that Sam or someone at DTG will notice this thread anyway whether or not you tag it, and as Matt seems to be a fan of RD, I can see him giving it a look anyway.
     
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  3. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I‘m also in full agreement. This beta implementation is an excellent start.

    Things I like.

    The lever implementation is very good. I like that the levers are well used for each loco. For example using the Independent brake for AFB on the ICE.

    Things I’m not so happy with yet:
    • Buttons : These seem to be pretty random at the moment. Some consistency would be nice. I‘m having to set up different overlays. These are a pain to keep changing so I‘ve just been laying them on top.
    • Horn in the DB 406. Up give high, low gives both horns for me.
    • Door Control - Is not consistent or not working.
    • The view map button doesn’t work for me at all.
    • Calibration Seems very sensitive. The AFB lever for example sometimes will go in 10km steps other times the slightest touch will give 20km. Also sometimes the 0 position seems to move around a bit on the Throttle /Brake.
    Things I would like to see
    • The ability to redefine buttons.
    • Preserved collection support.
    Generally though really happy to have this. Made my weekend a lot more fun. For a first beta, I have no complaints. Looking forward to seeing what the next steps are!
     
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2020
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  4. tbaac

    tbaac Active Member

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    Presumably, if general joystick support is coming at some point, then button remapping will as well.
    Yeah, the 'Map' button didn't work for me in the TGV.

    The doors toggle buttons worked great though. When I tested pressing once, pressing a second time shortly afterwards, the door buttons seemed to behave strangely. But in actual use, where I waited until the doors had opened and the passengers had got on, prior to closing them, the door buttons worked well. So I think the logic must be "If the doors are already open then close them", which means that if I keep spamming the door button while they're still opening then it'll keep showing it as door open, which is fine. Just would be nice to have similar mapping for the buttons between trains.

    And on the 1972 Stock, it was a bit fiddly getting a small amount of braking for a brief period, which may relate to the 0 position on the Throttle/Brake.
     
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  5. ht-57

    ht-57 Member

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    I mentioned this on another thread, But I will reiterate it here for ease of finding info for the Devs-
    Firstly TYVM for incorporating RD!
    overall working pretty decent for beta.
    One Item I found-
    The inability to calibrate and use independent brake "Bailoff" correctly on RD.
    Bailloff is accomplished by pushing indy to the right and holding on RD.
    Right now it happens when the indy is on full release with no way to control duration of bail off or calibrate its use.
    This was on the CW44 and the SD40, I'm going to assume its the same on the GP38 @ this point as we are only in beta.
     
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  6. GrayDawg

    GrayDawg Well-Known Member

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    I been waiting for some feedback before hooking mine back up again. Good to see that you guys seem to like it and it is working pretty good, moving in the right direction. I will hook mine up too this week and give it a whirl. Been waiting for a long time for this to happen.
     
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  7. rich.cooke

    rich.cooke New Member

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    Good overview paul.pavlinovich and good feedback Tigert1966. I agree with just about everything you've posted. Main difference I noted was the sensitivity of the controls. For example a tiny movement of millimetres on the Raildriver lever can give 20-30% braking. But I am getting used to managing that. I agree the button map should be standard across all locos. Its a pain to keep trying to change the labels.

    But most of all I did want to say a big thank you to Dovetail for this great early Christmas present. My wife bought me my Raildriver for Christmas in 2003 and its still going strong. I've used in MS Train Simulator, Rail Simulator, Railworks and all versions of Train Simulator (big thank you to CobraOne for making it easy to use in TS) and I don't really enjoy driving without it. So it is fantastic to have it in TSW2 and its implementation has rekindled my interest in train simulation. It was also very easy to set up. It was immediately recognised by TSW2 and straightforward to calibrate. Hope that we'll soon be able to drive with it in the preserved collection. That would be a big bonus.

    Rich Cooke
     
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  8. oldrocker#2761

    oldrocker#2761 New Member

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    Well done Dovetail. Had to dust off my old RD (not been used for a few year) plugged it in and it worked. This has totally changed the game play for me. I have now purchased all the DLC's that use the RD and will be trying them after I complete Sand Patch. Thank You ever so much. Looking forward to other DLC's that will use the RD.
     
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  9. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Thanks :). Isle of Wight uses the arrow keys too. Some consistency would be wonderful.
     
  10. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    I had similar issue on Run8 with bail off. I talked to PI Engineering about it after getting zero response form Run8 about it. PI did say that the control is a pot but its very small throw so might be challenging to use in the same way as it is in real life but it should be able to come reasonably close by watching how long it is bailed off for and it should work anywhere in the range of independent brake handle action but only on the lead locomotive.
     
  11. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    As an update for RD - a common issue that happens with RD particularly on fine recognition of controls is that the pots drift a bit from calibration to usage. This happens in all games that use RD, as an example on Run8 after they drift it can be hard to get into notch 8 or the most dynamic brake. I noticed this happens on TSW2 as well. Being an embedded software guy from the dark ages this is actually pretty easy to resolve... After calibration which gives you the max travel for each pot, drop back a little and set that at your maximum point in each direction and then in your driver (when playing) flatten the inputs to that artificial max setting when you get a higher reading on the control with the pot.

    This issue manifests on Bakerloo in any scenario that requires you to put the controller into shutdown, I had to resort to the mouse to do it so I could continue game play.

    I've played everything with RD now that has it enabled and am still enjoying it. I am looking forward to it coming to all the DLC that I've got and if it turns up on some of the German routes I've been ignoring then I might just buy them too :).

    I echo the thoughts of previous reports that the map button doesn't work at all.

    Paul
     
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  12. Crystal Noir

    Crystal Noir New Member

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    Hi,

    I already posted something similar in an other thread, but I would like to make a new iteration here.

    First of all, thx to support Raildriver. I wait for this since the begining...It works but there's some problems and issues. I know that is a beta version that's why I'm going to let you know what I have seen. Congratulation for handling it without any gateway like Zusi does.

    - The calibration should be tweak a bit. When we calibrate the raildriver the levels does not match the picture in term of "deadzone". It make the raildriver very sensitive.

    - I don't know why but for the GP38-2 in timetable I can make it work but in "journey" mode, on one scenario (the first or second I doesn't remember), the raildriver doesn't work on that loco.

    - In some routes/loco, wiper and light are mapped on the same rotary switch

    - In some situation for the light on/off are inverted (Off is on and vice versa)

    - The calibration is not exact. Full throttle doesn't give 100% for example but 94-96 % of power. I tried several calibrations methods but it doesn't work well.

    Thanks :)
     
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  13. Sharon E

    Sharon E Well-Known Member

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    Man, to think that I had a RD and tossed it some years ago after I stopped using MSTS.
     
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  14. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    I was going to start a new thread about RailDriver but it seems there's an excellent one already here so I'll tack on the end of this one :)

    As mentioned on the stream I just did for RailDriver - we'd very much appreciate as much feedback as possible about it!

    Some questions I posed in the stream:

    1. Some times the direction to move the control on the raildriver doesnt match the direction on the train - i.e. pull to apply throttle on the raildriver (because that's where label says throttle is) vs push on the loco in the train animation. So - would you prefer it by default to generally match the train or generally match the labelling? We've gone for labelling as that felt less confusing. Of course once there's remapping you can tune to your hearts content but I am interested to see if there's mass rejection of what we've done in this regard.

    2. Is the calibration process working ok for you and did you understand it ok?

    3. What do you like, what don't you like, what stands out as being "wow!" and what stands out as being "eeehhhh?!" - we haven't necessarily stuck to conventions other sims have used, we've tried to think about how *we* want to use it and you might like some of it, and not like other bits perhaps - again, I'm interested to hear what your high points and low points are with the integration as it stands.

    4. Even if you don't want to take the time to reply with more detailed feedback, please do at least tell us if you're using it and roughly how much, has it become your preferred means of use? an occasional tool to use? mandatory "if it doesnt support RD im not driving it" level of use? How important it is it for you?

    5. We're using the DPad left/right for door controls the same as they are on the controller - the idea is this will be consistent across all trains to make life easy. On other sims these are often used for camera controls but we felt this was a bit clunky in TSW. Agree? Disagree? Boo hiss? Tell us your thoughts.

    A big common question is "why only PC?" and the short answer is that PI Engineering have only released it as a PC bit of hardware, you'll need to speak to them directly to express your interest in them developing a console compatible version of it (I hasten to add I have no idea if this is something they are interested in doing - but if you don't ask...).

    There is no support for any other types of hardware at the moment, but this has been developed so that in time we can look at supporting them - the key is to get this working as the most widely owned bit of TS hardware and see how it goes from there.

    Thanks for your help and support, let's make this the best integration we possibly can :)

    Matt.
     
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  15. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    1. I think it should match the train.
    2. Yep, no problems.
    3. I am really enjoying it!
    5. The left/right D Pad is good for the doors, but the 1972 stock doesn't use it.
     
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  16. atpyatt

    atpyatt Active Member

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    Hi,

    1. I prefer the brake and throttle direction to match the labelling for consistency. Going from one type of train to another and finding that the throttle or brake lever now works in the opposite direction is going to lead to a lot of overshot platforms etc for me personally and I suspect for everybody else.

    2. Fine, no problems.

    3. I like the way you have set the levers up. Using the Ind brake lever for AFB was a good idea and works well. However we need more consistency on the buttons, a lot of us like to use a printed legend next to the buttons and this isn't possible when the assignments change from train to train. For example why are the buttons to open the doors different on 1972 stock? As the number of trains you can drive with raildriver increases, it will be impossible to remember which button does what without consistency. I also think I've had some issues with the wiper and lights rotary switches not being set up correctly on some trains. Overall though, pleased with it, big step forwards.

    4. I've only moved across to TSW because you started supporting Rail Driver. I don't like driving trains with a keyboard and to me it's as essential as flight sim supporting joysticks.

    5. Using the d-pad for doors is a good idea, it's far better suited to this than panning the view.

    Thanks,
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
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  17. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Although I do not have a RailDriver myself (may look into getting one when they're in stock), as an avid German train enthusiast, I can't help but notice the sub-optimal placement of the PZB Override/Free/Acknowledge buttons. Those controls, particularly PZB Acknowledge, are frequently used in normal operation so their position on the little buttons at the bottom is unusual, not to mention their reversed order.
    upload_2020-12-29_18-28-58.png
    At the very least, the buttons should be, from left to right, Override, Free, Acknowledge which would represent the real life left-to-right order.

    In my opinion, I think a better placement for these functions would be like so, moving Sifa to the other circle button which is currently mapped as "Bell 1" (Not sure what Bell 1 refers to on a German train), replacing Pantograph Raise Toggle with PZB Free, and replacing Emergency Brake Valve with PZB Acknowledge, since both the Pantograph and Emergency Brake functions are lesser used and would better belong somewhere else. Perhaps the unmapped grey circle button can be mapped to one of those. I just think that this is a lot more intuitive for PZB controls.
    upload_2020-12-29_18-30-46.png

    Hopefully I have conveyed what I mean well.

    Cheers
     
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  18. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    TrainSim-Matt Could you please send me a raildriver so I can leave you all some lovely feedback ? I'll pay for postage...


    OK was worth a shot :P
     
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  19. bsrdj

    bsrdj Member

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    I use raildriver on sand patch usa route. had no problems setting up the raildriver it makes playing tsw2 more fun to play. cant wait till it will work on all the routes and trains. since I have all the dlc for this game:)
     
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  20. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    While your suggestion is good, I am afraid I disagree with placing PZB controls on those upper switches. From an ergonomics view it is much easier to use the buttons since my left hand is usually on the throttle and brakes and mt right hand is used for the buttons and mouse. Having to reach across to acknowledge PZB while braking would be very inconvenient. I do agree with getting them in the right order on the buttons.
     
  21. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I am not sure what you mean by reaching across, sorry. The proposed button placement is to the left of the throttle (as are the current lower button mappings), so I'm not sure what kind of contortion you would need to do that you aren't already doing. PZB while braking would look like right hand on the brake, left hand on PZB. Could you elaborate a bit more as I am not understanding? :)

    Cheers
     
  22. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I
    I use my left hand for the throttle and brake, leaving my right hand free for the keyboard and mouse and buttons. Since in TS20XX, the D-pad and rocker switch is used for views and zooming - just more natural. I would guess you would have to use the Raildriver a bit to figure out what works best.
     
  23. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    I'd rather the D-pad was used for the doors.
    It's not the most comfortable input to use.
    The mouse with the scroll wheel works so much better for views.
    Plus when I'm using my right hand braking or button mashing, I'm too busy to be staring round.
     
  24. jayzhead

    jayzhead Active Member

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    Oh, so this is where the thread is. And I already went ahead and started another one in the technical forum.
    Never mind, copy paste :)

    First of all, I want to say that it is a real joy to finally have RD support in TSW. It literally got me back into playing the sim, after abandoning it for a while. So well done. Now lets hurry up and get the preserved collection locos working, as they've now basically been rendered useless for me as I only play what has RD support :)

    Here are my answers:

    - I most definitely think that mapping the controls closest to how they are in the cab is best, so not always stick to the default RD labels. But I also think that perhaps it should wait for when the re-mapping will be ready, so people who do not want different control behavior for every train won't forced to use it that way, as it can be confusing. When I played the old trainsim I used cobraone's raildriver interface utility which allowed for complete re-mapping of the controls with an option to reverse every lever's action, so that I could map german trains in which you push the throttle away for power and back for brake to mimic the real behavior. If that option would be available in the remap screen, it would be best, and then the default behavior can stay as is, going by the labels on the unit. That way everyone can be happy.

    - One of the best "tailored" implementations of raildriver I've experienced is in TML's world of subways Circle Line. They have mapped the master controller to the brake lever rather than the power lever, as it is a combined handle and the brake lever on the RD is longer and more tactile, you can grab it with the whole hand and it generally provides a finer control. I think that can work great for the bakerloo '72 stock for example. Also, take a look at how the door controls are mapped there: the controls for each door is on the side of the unit to which the doors correspond. And also having a button to look back through the window at the platform right next to the door operation buttons is great, one can look if the passengers finished boarding and close the doors all from adjacent buttons. But, once again, if the remapping options are robust enough - allowing us to not only change the buttons but also remap levers and reverse their action if desired - it would provide my geeky self with everything I'd need to create my own perfect mappings.

    - Custom mapping of levers can only go so far however when it comes to the actual finetuning of the linearity of the control. For example, there should be a certain "dead zone" in combined power/brake levers which would allow to easily find the "0" (coast) position. Right now I feel it is implemented better in certain trains and worse in others. The TGV for example seems pretty much perfect with my RD and calibration, while the 72 stock is too twitchy and hard to control, forcing me to put the lever in the awkward position over the plastic divider peg to coast. Also in the 72 stock, the braking notches are too close together on the lever - literally a few millimeters of lever travel jump from position 1 to 2 to 3 and beyond, which is already too much brake. Common controller positions should have a bit more travel on the lever as opposed to positions rarely used, such as emergency braking.

    - The mapping of the doors to the hud arrows on the RD is great IMO, that's what I would have done. I think it's very handy and clear, a lot more than camera controls would have been on that.

    - The calibration worked great and was very clear.

    Other than that, here is a list of bugs I've discovered so far:
    The 423 - the horn gets stuck on when you move the lever down (low note), while moving the lever up doesn't work at all.
    The 442 - The sifa doesn't work (button makes pedal press three times but doesn't cancel the alarm and train applies emergency brake), the wiper control puts on the lights as well while the lights control does nothing.
    The 406 - Also, lights and wipers get activated together from the wiper switch
    If you load into the middle of a service (by using the "load last checkpoint" option) the door buttons stopped working on the 442 (they still worked fine with the mouse). Maybe that's also a bug on other trains, didn't check.
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2020
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  25. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Here's my feedback.

    1) I'd prefer the levers to match the direction for the specific train (and long term for it to be user definable). It doesn't matter to me what the stickers say. My Raildriver is fairly new and the stickers are such poor quality they have mostly worn away anyway (That is the only poor quality thing about the Raildriver, other than that, it is very solid and reliable).

    2) Yes, the calibration was very easy. It mostly works. But I do find that particularly on the Throttle the 0 position (deadzone) moves around a bit. Also when using the AFB on the ICE it seems over sensitive.

    3) What stood out as Wow, was just how well it worked first time. I drove an ICE and the fact you had mapped the IND Brake lever to AFB, made it excellent. Not so good is the button handling for me it would be a priority to make these work better and make them user definable. At the moment I am only using the levers on the Raildriver and Keyboard/Mouse for everything else.

    4) I have found that since Raildriver support has been available, I rarely drive the unsupported trains. It really makes a huge difference to the immersion.

    5) Disagree, but don't feel that strongly about it. I´d prefer to use the D Pad for Cameras. I find that quite intuitive. I've been trying it for Doors but I'm not finding it works consistently across trains and sometimes not at all.

    You'll find the bugs I found so far in my post higher up this thread. I've been using Raildriver constantly since you released support and I'm very pleased with the first Beta. I'm a fairly casual player, I just like to sit down after work and escape for an hour or so driving a train, but this has made me want to play a lot more.

    An aspiration is, in my opinion, to have the same level of customisation as the CobraOne Interface for TS2021. With the standard PI Engineering Interface on TS2020, I was starting to regret my Raildriver Purchase, the latest version removed customisation and I almost returned it. The CobraOne Interface is so flexible, there is very little that cannot be configured with a little work.
     
  26. atpyatt

    atpyatt Active Member

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    +1, that's a good idea, using the throttle lever for the master controller is very fiddly, too many notches in too small a range.
     
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  27. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    On my own RailDriver setup for TS1 I use the loco brake as the throttle for the same reason - but it comes with the sacrifice that you obviously can't then use it for the loco brake... which on TS1 i'm quite happy with , but that's not everyone's preferred choice of course.

    I don't want to chop and change which handle is the throttle, I think that would be too confusing for people (as a default) obviously once there's mapping you will be able to do as you wish, but that's why we've stuck with the throttle being on the labelled throttle handle.

    The throttle handle is the weakest of all the levers unfortunately, you lose a full third of its range to the "zero notch" and by the time you've smoothed the inputs and take into account the constraints in calibration you're not left with a huge range of movement. That said, from my runs so far, it's proving competent if not ideal.

    For the default setup I want to have something which makes sense by default for the majority of people - so putting throttle on throttle kinda leans towards that, but once mapping is in, I know for sure i'll be customising - i'm just not sure how yet, because the loco brake is now incredibly useful in TSW compared to TS2021 so ...

    I once thought about taking out something like the lights control and using that for the reverser, and then using the reverser handle as a "better" throttle too - since you don't use the lights switch that much it could be basically on a blue button or two. But, again, these kinds of customisations are imho best for us to each tailor to our own tastes rather than to confuse people with out-of-the-box :)

    Keep up the feedback folks, i'm really learning a lot from this thread!

    Matt.
     
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  28. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    Honoured you used this one mate :) My answers are:
    1. I prefer the direction to always match the labels. I don't want to have to think about which direction to move my hand, I want it to be automatic - for the same reason I prefer the controls not to change from train to train (for some to be out of use is fine - e.g. on Bakerloo you only need reverser + one lever for throttle brake) but please when they're in use make them do the same thing in the same direction. This is because I play across various Sims (most commonly TSW2 and Run8) and I play across all the DLC I own (which is most of them).
    2. Calibration is good for me because I have used RD a lot and understand the process, but for a RD newcomer think some additional direction is needed. I did make a comment above on a common calibration problem which is that the pots in the RD drift constantly so the extremities of the values you get during calibration change during game play. This means your hardware obfuscation layer needs to handle this - hypothetically let's take throttle for example, lets say the values you get during calibration are -255 full dynamic, -5 dynamic setup, 0 notch 0, 255 full throttle then make full dynamic -250 and full throttle 250. The ones in the middle don't matter so much because you'll find the right place and it won't interfere with game play but not being able to get full braking or full throttle will (and does) matter for gameplay. In the hardware obfuscation layer when you get a value over the maximum artificial calibration set it to the actual calibration.
    3. The big don't like for me is the lack of hysteresis on the controls, when I turn a switch (e.g. wiper or headlight) I expect it to do one thing in the game, not turn the headlights on/off 20 times and sometimes end up the opposite of what I selected. Consistency in the buttons on the controller is very important across all trains - again some of them can be not used for a train, but all the common ones should be there. Think of it like the console controller and try to maintain that level of consistency. I have most of the DLC and I jump around a lot from route to route. I don't mind switching button labels when I move from Run8 to TSW2 but I would not want to switch labels inside TSW2. Another minor gripe is that the trains controls don't start out matching what is on the RD. As an example, you jump into a scenario or service on Sand Patch and the locomotive has the service brake applied, but on rail driver its in release. You have to move to apply then release it. Please just make it adapt and match the RD controls on startup. In Run8 I will always exit the game in reverser neutral, throttle off, service brake applied, loco brake applied so that when I jump into something I will start in a safe mode.
      The big like for me is "it's here!!" - these controls make a massive difference to game play and will help prevent repetitive strain injury from the way the keyboard is modelled (long presses etc) to help immersion. Having these controls lifts game play to a new level and I have to say I'm avoiding the content that doesn't yet have RD support. Making small driving changes is easy. Making braking changes without accidentally getting into Emergency is easy. It all just flows naturally when you're using analog feeling controls.
    4. RD is very important to me, while I do have some simulators that don't work with RD they are few - with them I will use an external macro program to get what I want. I really want the control experience to be as close to a real train as possible. I appreciate this because I am involved with real trains as a volunteer on a preserved railway and cannot imagine getting out a keyboard and mouse from the control cupboard in the morning to drive my machine. I've had opportunities to drive serious freight and even passenger once on "real" railways. I had ignored TSW1 and TSW2020 but when I read that TSW2 was going to get RD I bought it before release because I like what Dovetail are doing.
    5. I really like the d-pad left/right for the doors on Isle of Wight, but I notice on others that its the bottom right four buttons. I guess this was an A/B test to see which people like. I like the d-pad. When leaving the loco or when using external cameras you could use the d-pad for moving or panning without hurting immersion. I would not mind having to go back to the cab to open/close the doors.
    Final words - RailDriver help makes this like a real train, I will quite happily sit at the controls of a real train for hours because you're constantly observing and making minor adjustments - RD brings a lot of that real world immersion to the gameplay. TSW2 is a bit of a winner here anyway, I have commented on Run8 that they really have captured the boredom of a 12 hour freight shift perfectly. I find myself watching YouTube or being dispatcher for all the AI trains or playing multiplayer for Run8 because of that. TSW2 for the most part makes the longer things interesting although the mind does drift a bit on Sand Patch Grade at times so well done there.

    Paul
     
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  29. masse2

    masse2 New Member

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    Hello Matt
    my experience on RD is limited because I had a lot of problems on TS to calibrate it and it therefore remained in its box On TSW 2 no calibration problem (thank you) For driving I don't have a lot of experience on RD but I tested the TGV, ICE and the C40-8W no problem the immersion is good for me.
    For the sights I use the mouse.
     
  30. Celendis

    Celendis Member

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    Matt, thank you for taking the time to review our feedback on the RailDriver.

    The first thing I did with my RailDriver was to jump into the Talent 2. I was disappointed with the wiper/light duplication, and also found myself pushing the throttle lever in the wrong direction, since I expected forward to move the train forward like the animation suggests. In the American locos, I did not have this issue, so I think having an option to match the regional behavior of the throttle is a good idea.

    I also found the PZB layout really disappointing. It is both reversed to the expected order and not easily reached. I think that Callum's suggestion about moving the PZB and SIFA controls to replace the functions just under the speedometer of the RD would be most helpful.

    Regarding the door controls, please continue to use the D-pad as a door function and expand its use to all passenger trains. This has been the second best feature of the Raildriver, with the first being the throttle lever control.

    I also believe that the blue button layout should be as consistant as possible. If concessions must be made, at least try to make the layout the same for all trains within the same region.

    As an additional feature, I would really like the ability to print a button template directly from the game, or at least be able to export the layout rather than waiting on a generous community member to provide one.

    Most importantly: Thank you for integrating the Raildriver into TSW2. It really helps immerse myself into train driving, even in its current state.
     
  31. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Any chance you could make the raildriver graphic on the calibration page a bit smaller?
    End of graphic puts half the wiper graphics off screen.
    Assume you use a low res here and it could be my monitors settings but running at manufacturers recommend.
    No problems running the game otherwise.
    Still on the fence regarding the throttle and German locos. Not a serious worry.
     
  32. stevewa

    stevewa New Member

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    I think I bought one of the first RailDrivers produced. Been waiting for this compatibility since the first TSW release. Thanks!
    One additional observation I have not seen mentioned, when running multi-unit on Sandpatch I found by accident it's entirely possible to get "stuck" in the non-lead cab by accidentally pressing the "previous cab" and "next cab" buttons. There doesn't seem to be a way out except bailing out of the sim.

    On the button assignments I have to agree the default mappings should all be as similar as possible between the various trains. Every time I replace the paper templates I'm afraid I'm going to snap the plastic cover in two...
     
  33. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Using the throttle as default on US locos is annoying.
    Basically the throw is so limited for eight notches.
    Sometimes it takes three quarters of the throw to enter notch one, then it jumps to notch seven with a 2mm input.
    Subtle it ain't.
    Any chance the calibration could be tightened as the zero notch seems way too large?
     
  34. rabid

    rabid Well-Known Member

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    Same, I had a very early model, which was a nightmare to calibrate. PI sent out a fix for the throttle but it was never right. I do hope the latest has improved mechanics on its analogue controls.

    Not wishing to labour the point, but I still don't understand why DTG are debating with users about hardcoded control mappings. Surely it makes sense to just let people map whichever buttons and levers they wish in-game? This is how it works in just about any flight or driving simulator on the market, and it would of course be completely impractical if it were otherwise.
     
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  35. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    One of the question Matt asked for feedback on was the directionality of Brakes and throttle should they follow the levers in the locomotive or the directions on the Raildriver.

    I have been contemplating my answer for a while first leaning toward following the locomotive but after using Raildriver for a while in TSW, especially on the TGV, my vote is now to follow the labels on the Raildriver. Can’t count the times my muscle memory have had me applying emergency brakes and then trying to figure out why I can’t leave the station :).

    With the directionality following the locomotive and the variety of the locomotives we have so far, which will be expanding in the future, I can see more and more of these “oh heck” moments as I release the brakes locking the wheels :)
     
  36. JZJ90

    JZJ90 Active Member

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    I was lucky enough to find a seller who has a few available in NZ so I actually got mine a couple of days ago. So far I've only done a service on IOW and I can already tell the raildriver will be a game changer. I am excited for it to be available for ECW which is my most driven route. The only thing I found with RD on IOW was that the throttle was quite jittery, as you move the lever down from the idle position the in cab controller seems to lurch around a fair bit. I also experienced it not returning to idle when the lever was moved back up to the idle position, and found myself having to move the throttle lever up to sit level with the notch that comes in from the left on the RD throttle section. I might try re calibrating and setting the throttle idle position to just below when it is in the idle position on the RD unit and see if that helps.
     
  37. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    As has been said, that is the longer term goal, but it is also important to understand what a good set of base mappings are so that most people dont *need* to remap everything, or where some simple tick boxes might allow more preferential controls without the cumbersome need to fully remap every time. Remapping is then the option left for those who want to completely customise to their own preference, but I for one rarely use remapping systems because there's a lot to consider and I'd rather spend time playing the game with a setup that works in the first place. Please don't take that to infer I am against the remapping system, quite the opposite, I consider it very important, but, remapping should be be a nice choice to have, not a necessity to make up for bad core mappings. IMHO. Therefore, the discussion.

    Matt.
     
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  38. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Remapping and testing controllers can quickly become a hobby in itself.
    Better a base consistency first to cover the majority of routes with perhaps a small area reserved for specific remappings where needed.
    Raildriver is just a tool to increase our immersion not a game extension.
     
  39. dadmobley#9236

    dadmobley#9236 New Member

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    ok can anyone help me im not very tech savey so keep it simple for this old man have had a raildriver for years love it now that i have this sim and the beta is there i can not get it to work. I go thru all the motions in settings and calibration it sees the devise and calibrates but nothing works no throttle brakes anything can anyone offer some advise?
     
  40. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Just a reminder raildriver does not yet work with the preserved content, only with the content listed in the advanced settings of the raildriver.
     
  41. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    A new feedback. Today I got a new keyboard, mouse and headset and it seemed to bugger up configuration of all my USB devices which all had to be reconfigured including RailDriver needing recalibration in TSW2. This is by no means a TSW2 issue, it is poor behaviour from Razer. There are two things that would be helpful in TSW2 that are prompted from the issue I experienced:
    1. Firstly I tried to play with RD but did not know it had lost calibration. It would be helpful to play that if RD is detected on startup and its not calibrated that you get prompted to go in and calibrate it before play.
    2. Secondly during calibration, something I did not notice last time, so perhaps this is an update since? When calibrating the throttle lever the sequence is furthest down (notch 8) top of the throttle range (notch 0) then top of the braking range (dynamic 8) then bottom of the braking range (dynamic setup). Logically this seems weird and I have to admit I did not pay enough attention because I got the sequence wrong which meant when driving Bakerloo I was either powering or in emergency or shutdown lol.
    Paul
     
  42. gary dean

    gary dean Member

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    I have no real problems with raildriver at the moment ,you have done a great job so far i just hope its ok with the preserved trains which i have most of.
    Thanks Gary
     
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  43. lcyrrjp

    lcyrrjp Active Member

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    I dug out my old RailDriver from the loft today (hasn't been used in years and it's very cold up there - impressive that it still works) and gave it a try. Total revolution. Massively more immersive than using a keyboard and just so much more satisfying.

    In answer to Matt's questions:

    1. Match the labelling. I hate that moment of "which way is brake on this one?" at the crucial moment at which you need to apply the brake.

    2. Calibration is mostly OK. The brake/throttle lever is a bit tricky for the reason you mention. Combined with the odd 1972 stock arrangement where if you push the brake beyond a certain point (to 'lap') you actually get less brake, not more, it makes braking tricky. Having said that, it's surprising how quickly you get used to the precise position you need the lever to be in order to get the brake step you want. It seems to be consistent, which is the important thing.

    3. Just the fact that the thing works so well is 'wow' for me - better than any other train sim. The only thing I don't like is the button allocation for the door open/close buttons on the 1972 stock (I keep pressing the wrong one and opening doors on the wrong side. Fortunately no serious injuries as yet, but it can only be a matter of time...) Using the D-Pad would be much better.

    4. If it doesn't support RD i'm not driving it. Up until today I was playing TSW only occasionally, using the keyboard, as it always felt there was something missing. Now I know what it is. This will definitely encourage me to buy more add-ons etc, but only if they have RD support.

    5. Agree, as per Q3, the D-Pad is better for doors on all trains.

    Thank you for your work on this, it's greatly appreciated.
     
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  44. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    yea - the calibration sequence for the throttle got me the first time through.... made for a REAL interesting run down the Sand Patch Grade :). Nothing new - has been that way since the beta driver was first released.
     
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  45. paul.pavlinovich

    paul.pavlinovich Well-Known Member

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    It certainly makes a bit of a WTF moment doesn't it until you realise what you've done :).
     
  46. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    As someone who is desperately trying to get a RD as only PI seem to have stock and as I am in the UK it would be expensive to pay the hidden costs but could I ask those who have got one, do you use the power pack for the speaker or do you use it fine without?
    As a potential new user of one it would be great if the main controls stuck to the labels but as for the buttons I wouldn't mind them changing for each train on the understanding we could get a label to print out for the RD.
    This could be an added immersion for having to set the RD up with the right train no. Anyway, must get back to ebay, lol.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2021
  47. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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  48. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    If you want it to use the subwoofer, then you need to use the powerpack. However, you don't need power to just use the controller. Personally I like the extra immersion that the subwoofer gives, it's quite subtle, but it definitely adds something.
     
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  49. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    What sort of power pack do you need if you have not got one? I might be within a shout of getting one but no power pack, ta.
     
  50. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    Took a quick look and it says 12 volt 1.5 amp. The connector is centre positive.
     
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