Real Train Driver In Ts

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by inversnecky, Jan 8, 2022.

  1. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    It’s been interesting to see videos by YouTuber ‘DadRail’, where he has had a go at simulators such as TSW, Open BVE and ‘TS Classic’.

    Interesting because you get a chance to hear what a real driver expects to see and experience with the simulation.

    In this route familiar to more of us now, he has some comments to make about things like seating view, (lack of) flange squeal, train sounds, RBTs, etc. (You’ll need to forward past the first few minutes to the actual start.)

     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  2. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    851
    You've also got https://www.youtube.com/c/QwertyAfro/featured hasn't posted in a while though, watching the way he casually pulls into stations at speeds that would have me stopping 200mtrs further down the line always amazed and baffled me, I guess if you've got a feel for it irl then that helps in sim too.
     
  3. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    32
    Im a driver in real life, done a few videos on YouTube but no commentary or anything.
    Did wonder whether to explore it a bit more as I only really started trainsim as a way of doing some more videos as I thought people might be interested to see a real life driver doing it and how they compare to casual youtubers.
    Most of my videos are driving sims (omsi,ets2) so if its something more people want to see id certainly be up for doing more videos.
    Not sure my idea of fun is sitting driving a train all day on a computer if I've been doing it for real most of the day lol as I'm certainly not an enthusiast, but if people would take an interest then I'd be happy to explore it a bit more as I appreciate to people that don't work on the railway but are enthusiasts its probably interesting to see it from the perspective of someone doing the job.
    If there's anything anyone wants to know then by all means ask away.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2022
    • Like Like x 5
  4. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,450
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    That does work but not always if the train in the sim does not have a similar braking curve.
     
  5. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    Hi there, it would certainly be interesting to see even a short video of a driver even on a short route explaining what (s)he is doing, to learn how to drive better.

    With the default career scoring, it doesn’t exactly instil proper or realistic defensive driving habits, so switching that off is a bare minimum.

    I’ve been watching a few training videos on YT recently and trying to replicate proper brake control etc.

    If it’s not too much of a busman’s holiday, it would certainly be interesting to hear commentary from a real driver about what they are doing, and how well things are mirroring reality…or not!
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
    • Like Like x 1
  6. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    32
    There's certainly many different factors that determine how you drive s train and you'll never be able to fully catch that all in TS but if its something you're serious about being good at then I can certainly try and give some tips on areas to improve and concentrate on.
    Always boil my p when I see some peoples videos to see how they drive in the sim, obviously it isn't real but you want it to be as close as possible as it can be and that starts with you and trying to drive as professionally as possible from start to finish.
    Maybe il try and put a little guide up of things that people can do to try and make it more realistic and hopefully get a more enjoyable experience out of it.
    I am an instructor as well so may be able to pass on some tips to help
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2022
    • Like Like x 2
  7. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    That would be much appreciated. Many can be seduced by point chasing, and trying to hit some crazy timetables in some of the scenarios!
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. cscarpenter

    cscarpenter Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2020
    Messages:
    662
    Likes Received:
    1,918
    Thank you for offering to share your knowledge & experience,
    To echo Inversnecky I would welcome any advice / tips / hints as I have never stepped inside the cab of a real life train, and would be extremely grateful to obtain guidance from someone who actually knows what he's doing.
    You do realise you are now going to get bombarded with requests for help and guidance. LOL
    Cheers
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    32
    Haha, yeah probably, like I say im not a railway enthusiast but I've done the job in real life for over a decade now, I dont have the passion some of you guys do especially as I do it every day for real but I do feel that this job is one where proper enthusiasts cant really get a true feel for the job as things like cab rides etc are forbidden unless its exceptional etc so you can miss out.
    The cab ride videos are ok if you're into that but you still cant get a real feel for it.
     
  10. SJA

    SJA Active Member

    Joined:
    Jun 2, 2020
    Messages:
    190
    Likes Received:
    136
    Have you found any stock in the sim that you think is a good replication of their real life counterparts?

    I think the arcade nature of career scenarios encourage unrealistic driving but as they are using default stock I don't tend to use them. Other standard scenarios come with very tight timetables and people do tend to focus on getting their green tick more so than simulating the drive.

    Your views on accurate simulation of correct technique would be highly welcomed, I'm sure!
     
  11. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    Yes, they are fine for seeing the route, signalling, etc, but I always wish you could see the handling of the main controls too.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  12. snapnfix

    snapnfix Member

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2020
    Messages:
    27
    Likes Received:
    34
    I don't know why there is an assumption that everything has to be driven realistically. That's an entirely valid play mode if that's what interests you, but simulation has a long tradition of also being used to explore "unrealistic" scenarios or events; especially in understanding what might be possible in circumstances you wouldn't want to happen or don't want to test yet in real life. For example, how fast can this thing go if accepted safety rules are ignored? What can we do if the brakes fail completely? What will happen if it hits a brick wall at 100 mph? How can we best recover from this disaster? How do we train people to handle dangerous situations, and so on.

    I believe this type of simulation is known as serious gaming and it's an entirely valid way of using simulation.
     
  13. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    32
    Well im a bit hesitant to spend too much money on TS, I got the 800 ep from AP, I dont drive them so can't say for sure how realistic they are, the biggest thing you cant replicate is physics, the actual feel and movement of a train can help with how you drive. That's something that's missing in all sims generally.
    One thing I will say is if you want to be realistic then simply don't rush, I know people want to complete the scenarios but in the real world it can lead to mistakes and incidents.
    I see a lot of people who constantly have spads etc on YouTube etc, its probably the worst thing as a driver you can do and you won't ever get that dreadful feeling you would in the real world, a drivers record follows you around for the rest of your career and can seriously hinder your chances of moving to a different company if you have too many incidents.
    Obviously you need to balance it up between realism and fun as taking it too seriously can take the fun out of it so you need to find that right balance.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  14. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    32
    Valid points indeed and thats entirely down to the individual, you always have to remember its a simulator and wont entirely replicate real life but you can definitely try and drive with a bit more concentration and have a good balance between realistic and fun.
    Thats where a sim is good because it can cover a wide variety of scenarios and events which you cant even do in the real world lol
     
    • Like Like x 1
  15. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2019
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    898
    I enjoy commentary for sure. I'm really not interested in TS videos - I can play it and watch the real thing.
    Maybe short videos describing how you'd drive certain trains, or handle certain places. Why could the simulation be wrong.
    (One thing I never really grasped is the self-contradictory nature of German speed signaling.)
    Also, one thing, talking about mistakes can come off as complaining and whiny. I find it best to prepare a script, or voice over after the fact. Laughing and explaining.

    The game tries to strike a balance between realism and arcade fun, both sides can have their cake.

    I prefer to drive in a realistic way but don't mind calculating my moves in career scenarios. Plus, the reality is, most of the time racing is not as much intended as untested. Several scenarios are impossible. I think about them in two ways.
    First, it is a scenario. I can replay it. I learn what will happen. I can calculate and refine my moves, signals to ignore, and so on.
    Second, sometimes the story is being late. An ailing train, bad timetable, been held up. The bug is the lack of extra points.
    Third, I've played a real timetable a year ago. I was racing like Seb Vettel, gotten some driving quality penalties and I was a bit late.

    Cab rides are great once you understand enough, for example, listening to the engine, or braking efficiency / habits.
    TS brakes are terribly weak and the force meter is also too strict, wheelslip should not be penalised and better scripted, to name a few.

    As far as realistic driving, not sure what that means. Just watched a Don Coffey video where the Class 66 was driven in either notch 0 or 8, nothing in between. Same with commuter trains, those NJCL scenarios where you start in Notch 6-8 with the F/GP40 sound totally real. I've also seen a Southern Pacific train starting in Notch 8 uphill - the one with a female engineer.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    Is that the new one out? Haven't seen that yet. How do you know it's straight to 8?

    The golden rule is always drive according to your conditions; and certainly with rain, etc, opening up too soon with the throttle will result in wheel slip - similarly a more gentle application of the brakes (and earlier braking) might be required in bad conditions. The AP trains can be excellent educators in bringing this home through experience!

    The single best thing I did this last year is turn off scoring for career scenarios. Yes, I could get that 1,000 points and a gold star if I tried, but I was playing a video game, not properly driving a train, with eyes on the HUD, and not on the track, I am also trying to familiarise myself more with favourite routes and drive without the HUD, which you can't really do without when the speedo needle is hard to see and you might otherwise hit 1 mph over the limit and lose previous points! Getting rid of scoring helps get rid of that "computer game" mindset it otherwise encourages, at least for me, and actually makes for a much more relaxing and enjoyable experience!
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
    • Like Like x 2
  17. class2ldn2801

    class2ldn2801 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 23, 2019
    Messages:
    80
    Likes Received:
    32
    In the real world some timetables are unachievable and a good driver knows that you cant race around to try and match timetables.
    You need to drive consistently and safely regardless of the times and its the same in TS, some of the scenarios youll never get 100% especially if you drive in a more concentrated manner but the joy of a sim is its down to the individual so people need to do what suits them, im just trying to help people that want to try and close the gap between reality and sim.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  18. DIFFLOCK

    DIFFLOCK Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2021
    Messages:
    276
    Likes Received:
    107
    If you mean the Bedford to Earles Don Coffey video, the loco does not go from 0 to 8 straight away: One can clearly hear the driver notch it up in steps as they set off from the station... and that's just at the start of the 3 hour marathon (missed the premiere, but I'm looking forward to watching it with a few brews etc !)

    Regarding watch cab videos, I've certainly learned not to "chase the single yellow" any more! :cool:
     
    • Like Like x 3
  19. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,450
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    I like running a Scenario on the London to Brighton route where you run non-stop from Victoria to Brighton as a Football Special
    You depart on yellows following a semi fast service and if you are careful you can get to Brighton on time without getting stopped but there are a lot of Yellows
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  20. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    Yes, that is a good one, Peter. I think that was one of my first times using TS Tools to stick in an AP train too!
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2022
  21. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    Which begs the obvious question as to why TOCs don't correct them - after all, late trains based on these timetables impact on performance ratings and make the TOC look bad! They have a very good incentive to make them realistic.


    Case in point, I just tried the Birmingham Cross City scenario 3 - Up and Down to the Valleys - with scoring on. I defy anyone to get through the scenario with any points, let alone a thousand! The timetabling is impossible to keep up with, even with instant step 4 and last minute brake step 3! I gave up after a few stations when I was already into a negative score. Now to restart without scoring :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  22. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    I have a query about the 323 - unlike other trains, it seems unable to coast an at even speed when you power off - it immediately starts losing speed almost as though a brake has been applied. So to try to maintain an even speed you have to constantly alternate between power 1 and 0.

    Is this what it's like on the real thing?
     
  23. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    Partly, as well, we have so much choice and can readily flit between class and route, between rural and urban, at a whim.

    In real life we’d be spending all our time initially on one route that we’d have learned like the back of the proverbial hand, and driving one class at a time, getting to know its behaviour and handling.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  24. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2019
    Messages:
    618
    Likes Received:
    898
    Peterborough to Birmingham.
    Starts off in a medium notch for a few seconds but the engine is either revving crazy or not at all ever after.
    Granted the 66v2 in TS has a funny setup, it does like 25% effort in notch 6. Or is it the 57...
    I did ask about driving habits but Don couldn't fill the details. Apart from being a heavy train. Showing the Amps meter would clarify, too :)

    I just noted it because normally I try to find a notch or two that maintains my speed. Constant up-down grades without a HUD can get tricky in real life I guess. So I'm actually more casual than real life if I can, but I am seeing people handling the F4 HUD like a toy indeed.

    I have a list of real life experiences, some every day, which go well beyond the casual driving. I did, but deleted :)

    This is my point - discussing it, commentating videos could be nice, deepen the experience. That's where the value lies for me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  25. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
  26. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    There’s one or two Cab Ride YouTubers who add interesting annotations in a chyron: speed changes and historical tidbits. I also just came across a similar channel with some rather funky graphics:



    There’s a good couple of dozen of these videos on that channel. Someday(!) I must compare the view of the real thing to OTS’ Northern Lines Electric!
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1
  27. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,450
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    When I used to drive the 323s they were good sets and like most other units would roll a long way when you shut off power.
    The physics of the one in the game are wrong as it has too much rolling resistance.
    They would take exactly 60 seconds to reach 65 mph and I liked them - fortunately we are getting some of the WM units when they get their new sets
    01-05-26-323_237_Chelford.JPG
    We should have waited in Chelford Loop but missed it so waited time here - time for a phot :)
     
    • Like Like x 5
  28. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    Didn’t realise you drove them, Peter.

    Getting used to them on the BCC route has been a bit of a struggle. The brakes seem very sharp indeed: is that accurate for almost 30 year old units? It makes stopping and slowing rather jerky.

    I have no idea what they are supposed to sound like from real life: I know there was criticism of the sounds when the route was released, but not sure if any changes were made. There’s what almost sounds like braking while you are in full tilt, and that metallic knocking/hammering sound like next door’s builders when stopped!

    No doubt there’ll be a full AP enhancement pack along this year.
     
  29. R3dS41ft

    R3dS41ft Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 18, 2020
    Messages:
    108
    Likes Received:
    26
    There is a sound patch for the 323 on ATS (https://alanthomsonsim.com/downloads/class-323-sound-pack/) but you need a couple of AP products to make it work.
     
  30. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,450
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    323s have Regenerative brakes on the power cars and are very good compared with units that just have air brakes as the pads will wear over time and need replacing. The performance of a train should not vary over its life - unlike road vehicles
    "When you are in Full Tilt"? They don't tilt.
    Are you thinking of the noise made by the wheels on a super elevated curve at slower speeds?
    Where is it happening and I will give it a try.
    Hopefully :)
     
  31. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    That explains it!

    Sorry, I meant driving at a fair speed, not tilting on a corner!
     
  32. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    DadRail due to try the new Chatham ML later:

     
  33. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2020
    Messages:
    1,905
    Likes Received:
    680
    I hadn’t heard of ‘speed set’ - apparently cruise control for trains, used on the AP80x EP (give me time, I’ve only just started driving trains built after 1970!), but in the above DadRail video (09:00) he says it’s ‘not allowed’ presumably as not prototypical. But I think some of the latest have that, right?
     
  34. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2018
    Messages:
    1,456
    Likes Received:
    851
    I was told it all depends on the TOC/FOC some encourage it some don't permit it at all and others don't care either way
     
  35. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Dec 10, 2016
    Messages:
    6,450
    Likes Received:
    1,936
    Using the Cruise Control makes the driver Lazy as he is not really doing anything apart from resetting the DSD every minute.
     
    • Helpful Helpful x 1

Share This Page