Something has been stirring at dovetail games for a while now. We all know that things are heading in the wrong direction, but there is no clear explanation as to why. How can dtg rescue themselves now?
Ever since the decision to upgrade TSC it appears that TSW has started to move away from simulation and more towards entertainment and mass easy to pick up routes with more focus on gameplay then accuracy. I don't think it's necessarily the wrong direction persay, rather it's just moving in the wrong direction for the hardcore player and that it's many of us are playing the wrong game. I reinstalled a couple of TSC routes last night as a test to see if the update made it playable on my laptop. Thankfully the initial tests look promising and touchwood I've had no crashes. They may not admit it but it seems they've decided TSC is the hardcore realistic simulator and TSW is the casual mass appeal game
Despite the doom and gloom in the TSC forum over the patch/update, I fired it up yesterday evening and no issues. I even managed to resume a run on the JT Met Line which is notorious for refusing to reload and crashing with an OOM error, but not only did it load okay the run seemed much smoother even on my old potato PC. If a recycled train and another short AC electric route is the best DTG can come up with for TSW, then TSC does start to look the better option - or Run 8, or SimRail or even my old MSTS collection in OR. And on the subject of recycling, two further thoughts. It has been hinted at there was no staff resources available to re task the Class 45 or Class 101 DMU for a diesel layer on PF. Yet they have staff to reskin and rework the 323 interior. And if DTG want to recycle existing stock, what about a route for the Class 20, 31, 33, 40 or 52 none of which actually have a native route on which they are the main attraction. No, just easier to recycle a push to go EMU on another start/stop suburban route.
I don't understand where notion comes from. Simulation wise, TSW is beyond anything availble on TSC, maybe with exception of few selected 3rd party addons, whose authors had to work hard to get around the TSC game engine. One example I give often - even one of the most important thing in train simulations - braking, is insanely simplified in TSC, as there is uniform brake pipe pressure throughout the whole train. The same pressure you have in the front, is the pressure you have in the back. So there is no delay in brake application, and release, even if you train is 2km long... TSW has proper pressure propagation. We can go also go to individual locos, like the DB 101 and its 'superslip' protection. In TSC slip is totally basic. Or the G6 with properly simulated hydro coupling... or the British Rail 101, which in TSC looks to have a dogbox race gearbox, as you can shift willy nilly at full throttle and high rpm. or.. https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/class-158-simulation-bits-bobs.69403 Simulation fidelity is not really the issue with TSW. The issue is that the product is buggy, routes are released unfinished, with broken signaling systems, red light issues..etc. Which, at best, take forever to get fixed, or never get fixed at all. It's a project management issue. Estimates are unrealistic, and there doesn't to be any beforehand planning for post-launch quick support. A game-breaking, stupid, AI SPAD issue, where the whole fix is to place aditional stop instruction after the loco leaves the turntable, cannot take a YEAR to figure out and fix.
I think for some people the notion of good simulation is more about having the exact model of train in the right livery for a given date for the setting of the route than for things like the braking performance. There are more complaints on the forum that TSW doesn’t have the right trains or enough trains to fill a route to the full capacity than there are about the behaviour of the brake pipe propagation. There were a quite few people fuming over the content depicted in a simple gameplay pack, Diesel Legends for GWE, and then myself and a few others complaining just about the bugs and poor playability of the content. For me, too much was made of the 101 being in blue and grey rather than all blue and that it should have been (the identical to drive) 117 instead, despite that not being an available train in TSW. Just an example of people’s priorities in what they want in a route. Some people want both the exact right content and perfect driving physics (the ideal combo) but you aren’t going to get that for consumer prices in a game.
You'd have to give a more clear explanation on what you think is "the wrong direction" and how you think they're not going in the direction you want. Without some content in the post it's hard to discuss anything other than vaguaries
Except that of course a lot of those problems with TSC can be bypassed, while TSW only doesn't feature them by virtue of less stuff being hardcoded. Which of course means that all these features are dependent on the devs bothering to include them. Not to mention steam locos, of course...
I get that, but that is not 'simulation'. That's one of the benefits of TSW. That devs don't have to work around hardcoded engine routines, which then compromises the user experience, but can build it directly with simugraph. The platform is much more suited for 3rd party devs trying to push the simulation aspect of the game, than TSC ever was. And let be honest, in TSC most of the devs don't bother to work around the issues. AFAIK there is only one 3rd party addon that worked around the brake pipe issue, and that is the Canadian Pacific AC4400CW from searchlight, and for that to work you have to use their rolling stock. Other addon makers 'worked around' the issue by limiting the speed of brake pipe change, but that is a bandaid solution, and trades one set of problem for another. This is same for wheelslip... And also same for steam. TSC steam simulation is very basic - steam generation rate is dependent only on firemass, and there is one optimal firemass number. You could have just filled half the boiler with cold water, the steam generation is the same, as was before you started the filling process... no need to heat the water up... The same for coal shoveling...etc. Also those trains are engineering masterpieces with bulletproof maintenance, as they are somehow able to mantain vacuum in pipes without vacuum ejectors turned on.. Yes, there are addons that work beyond this, like those from Smokebox. I own a few, and they are lovely to drive, but you feel that there is lots of workarounds present there, i.e. some systems get completely broken if you use the full hud, as the full hud is fighting your control inputs. Yes, steam in TSW is broken right now, and from the SOS release a year ago, there was no improvements on it. But the potential is much higher... especially as more 3rd party devs will come to the platform.
honestly i’m considering saving up to get a very very powerful system to run Tsc, as i have it but my system is quite underpowered right now, as TSWs new releases haven’t really impressed me, at least on TSC if dtg didn’t bother to fix their routes, there was always another person that did, along with the amazing custom created routes. About overall simulation i feel like TSW has a lot more of a better driver feel to me, with the main advantage TSC having over TSW is content, a lot of TSW routes feel extremely empty (with the exception of BML, a few german routes and SEHS), and adding bigger and bigger stations to TSW with no trains just makes the game feel so dead
As others and myself have stated previously, if TSC had the ability to input all day timetables and rolling stock rosters, TSW would be largely redundant - for PC users anyway.
Yes I was one of them and I make no apologies for that, you might have thought too much was made of it but for some of us it does matter, the add-on was an anacronism anyway, but they did something similar, worse in fact for the laters on WCL, it might not bother you but it bothers me and many others too. So for me simulation is not just about the way the train sounds, looks and drives but simulating the working railway as realistically as possible, especially on routes set in a bygone period where I would say realism is even more important as you a recreating something you can't experience in the real world. Of course bugs are important but so is realism. I don't hold with TSC being more realistic, although on actual ability to recreate realistic historic routes, yet it is but I don't think the features of the actual stock in TSC is better than TSW.
Be careful... TSC currently runs better with high powered single core oomph rather than new "high powered" machines which run with loads of cores running processes across them. Ie newer processors can run SLOWER on TSC than older ones.
I don't think the issue there would be the GPU, any £2000 unit would do. The issue is the CPU which would need to have fast or at least high power cores (TSC is or was very CPU single core heavy) so I'd be looking at CPUs with power cores and then assign the game routine to that core
Did you read the announcement last week? DTG did save themselves by selling out to Focus Entertainment. That will keep the lights on for the time being. Perhaps Focus will then pass it along to another sucker down the road.
Dtg didn't save themselves. They are doing just fine and earning good revenue. Stop with the argument that dtg would have gone out of business if they acquisition didn't happen.
I would like all aspects to be as realistic as they can be and all at great quality too but I accept that it isn’t possible. When I try to analyse what I get out of TSW it is the driving of the trains that matters the most. I also like a route to be busy and have lots of gameplay available. From what Matt was saying in last night’s live stream it appears that those are the areas that DTG feel are more important to most players and that tips the authenticity versus playable content and driving experience more towards how I see it and they are going to focus more on getting that aspect of it improved. I’m happy about that. It also pleases me that what I and many others have said about lacklustre scenarios was also acknowledged as an important area to improve on. Hopefully that can please everyone if there are more interesting and authentic railway operations depicted. Development of the trains themselves and getting the driving simulation as good as possible certainly reduces the overall number of trains that can be produced and that is a limitation of the fact that so much simulation goes into each one. I don’t know how many different and distinct trains there are now in TSW but it is a fair few and each one has simulation that is complex and detailed. Some are better than others. If players are sticking to one country then the number of trains they see is going to be small and there are never going to be enough to fully populate routes with the exact kind of train for a true enthusiast’s vision of how a route should be populated. I think this would still be the case even if more licenses could be obtained and that hurdle could be overcome for content selection. I just don’t think there can be all the trains needed developed in the same timescale as the routes and with the level of simulation that goes into them. So that’s where we have to accept that for TSW there will never be a true depiction of any railway in any given time in history unless it is one of those routes like Isle of Wight that are isolated and have exactly one train type, and even in that example the licenses were an issue and a compromise was made.
You are wasting your time, it seems to suit some agendas to believe that DTG are in some kind of trouble.
I want a route to be as busy as it would realistically be. I don't want West Cornwall to feel like the Brighton Mainline when it wouldn't in reality just because some want to see a train every ten minutes. However WCL is a study in how not to do it and I am not the only one by any stretch of the imagination who has moaned about those layers. I don't expect every train to be represented particularly in routes like SOS where there could have been a dozen different engines at least seen in 1957, however I don't want to see just two different types. I also personally don't want them to layer in something totally unrealistic either. If they start going down that road and we start to see unrealistic trains on routes then my wallet for one will be staying shut. This is why I have oft called for selectable layers and someone has started such a topic, therefore I am not the only one but I accept I might be in the minority. They talk on one hand about wanting playability and yet on their new steam route have left out a complete set of services for the Millers Dale branch, so how serious are they?
What do you mean "where do they go from here?" They just posted a roadmap that tells you where they are going "from here." And if they stick to that roadmap, they will get there, wherever "there" is. I hope they get "there" with Ny-Trenton at least.
Except that's not true at all, because TSC allows third party devs and TSW doesn't unless they're approved by DTG. In regards to what the end user can do TSC is far more powerful. And I wouldn't criticise TSC's steam simulation when as far as I'm aware stuff like fire mass isn't really simulated at all yet in TSW...
I noticed that my desire to play TSW is almost zero - simply because of the much more variable gameplay TSC offers. Routes are just better and more distinguishable than the brown/green/black visuals and limited assets featured on almost any TSW route. And the timetables are not important for me, it's more the variety of services and scenarios. Timetable is just mostly the same consists running at different times - doing a QuickDrive in TSC which features random AI and lets me set departure time is much more rewarding - to me. And of course being able to run any consist on any route without needing the "running out of time" developers creating a layer for me, is invaluable feature of TSC. As is creating my own scenarios, being able to include any asset to enhance the experience, is THE thing. (Adding people to platforms, broken down engines on fire, stuff like that) And as much as SimuGraph is praised - it simulates physics given on realistic data - Steam is something completely different and has to be scripted anyway. TSC is the best there is out there for enjoying Steam locos (see Smokebox and BMG). Back on topic, as DTG hosts both of these games, it's ok for them anyway. I do see TSW more for the casual gamer who wants eye candy over realistic depiction of routes, and who is OK with very short routes.
Agreed. As with most things in life, it comes down to your own expectations and what you enjoy doing. But, you'll never have something as big and complicated as a world wide train simulation in one game (though TSC comes close). Never. That's why I always had trouble with the name "Train Sim World". All the games that succeed in delivering what they promise are focusing on specific aspects of railroading (like the UNIX paradigm Keep It Simple Stupid). Run 8 is very enjoyable US railroading, physically very advanced. Zusi 3 gives you operational detail and timetables, the additional ZusiDisplay software enabling you to operate all the MFDs that's nowhere else to be found at the cost of bitmap cabs and a simpler 3D engine, TSW the most advanced loco modelling, and TSC the most variable gameplay and routes / stock available. What makes Zusi such a solid simulation is the way it was designed. First, code the simulations aspects. Then modularize the systems like brake valves etc (I know Matt does not like this, but it has advantages as setting up a new loco is quickly done by choosing the modules and entering simulation parameters, and you only have to update one module to affect all engines that use it. Much of DTG's issues arise from having to redo things from scratch over and over again - resulting in different variants of the same loco - and introducing bugs for stuff that previously worked). Run this in a simple wireframe world until the simulation itself is solid, finally add the graphics in. That's why the Zusi developer sells this software to railway companies for driver training, and all updates are delivered for free, you only pay once for the game and content. If you followed TSW from the start - it was designed in the complete opposite direction. Wow! Looks great, but hey - the brakes don't work as they should...
While the naming is open to interpretation, I believe it was said by someone, somewhere possibly in a galaxy far far away (or maybe a post/stream by a DTG staffer) that "World" was meant to signify open world, rather than "routes from around the world"; ie. the ability to get up and walk around the game world (within the confines of the rail layout) rather than being stuck in the cab
