Riesa-dresden: Tips On Driving Freight Trains Realistically.

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by cwf.green, Aug 27, 2021.

  1. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    To be fair, I didn't expect the 187 to have the GPR-selector. It was introduced way too close to the 187's release for Skyhook to implement it. Still, as you say, OpenMinded, it would have been a nice addition and given you 2 options for proper freight trains on DRA.
     
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  2. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    I give you that. It is a most unfortunate timing then.
     
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  3. Hazawa

    Hazawa Member

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    That is something, I can answer also add something additional here. If you drive an old locomotive like the Br 111 or 110 btw counts for the GDR Locomotives as well in R. It enables via mechanical parts and valves an additional brake pressure for the brake cyclinder to counteract the low performance of the iron block brakes by high speeds. It switches by 110 and 111 from "Niedriger Abbremsung" to "Hoher Abbremsung" by 70 km/h, which increase the brake cylinder pressure to 8.0 bar in case of failure of the dynamic brake. It goes back from "Hoher Abbremsung" to "Niedriger Abbremsung" by 55 km/h which is by Niedriger Abbremsung to 3.8 bar.

    As long, the dynamic brake operates you will not see the 8.0 bar.. Except, the locomotive doesn't like you. A pretty similar function is working in the Br 143. If you have one of those dinosaurs, you have to set the Brake Mode to P if you run the locomotive cold(Switched Off) because even then in R, the hohe Abbremsung would work. Also, if you don't have a working Electric you set it to P.

    The reason is simple, if you brake a couple of times with hohe Abbremsung, the thermal stress on the wheels is really high. Most of the old locomotives use tire wheels, and if they get hot the tire on the wheel could start move which increases then the chance to get derailed then.

    Ye, some coaches had already R but that dependendet how fast it goes etc. We had many regional coaches and locomotives which used P for a long time before they got upgraded. Some coaches, kept the P/G setting which is also because of the tire wheels. Tire wheels were back then much in use, now we use monoblock wheels.

    NBÜ/ep, is fun to drive. Normally, if you apply the brake without ep, it takes quite some time to apply the brakes by every coach. You have kind of to be careful a bit and not overshoot. But if you apply the brakes with ep, a signal will be send (only possible with compatible systems) and the brakes will apply simultaneously in every coach. You have in this case to be careful, because you will most likey try to stop
    perfectly but will release the brake too early. Then have to reapply it again, it is almost like driving an MU then..which also uses ep..with the difference to able the control all the brakes on the own.

    Edit: The sheet on page 1, I saw it back then by SBB Cargo around 2014...we had almost the same back then.
     
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  4. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Nice info! Btw, (and maybe you meant this), but the BR143 in DRA has Hohe/Niedrige Abbremsung implemented in R-brake ;)
     
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  5. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    Can someone explain me how to read this table? An example will be appreciated.
     

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  6. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    The table basically tells you how fast you can drive a certain gradient. First column gives you the gradient, second column lets you pick the brake mode you are driving your train in, the line on top gives you the max speed to the associated BrH in the lines below.

    Hope this helps and was what you were looking for?

    EDIT: sorry, forgot the example:
    You drive a cargo train with 86 BrH on a route with a max gradient of 1:200 in brake mode P. You pick the right line with the gradient and brake mode and follow it until you hit the next value below 86. In this case you end up with a max speed of 110. Of course, your rolling stock has to be capable of this as well...
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2021
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  7. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    Great, thank you! Now, I have another question :).
    Does the maximum speed restriction apply while driving on that gradient or does it apply to the entire route?
     
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  8. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    Strictly speaking it would only apply on this section of the track. However, in real life there are limits to how often a speed limit may be changed, in order to keep work level to acceptable limits. Hence, you would follow it for quite some time…
     
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  9. Ben132465798

    Ben132465798 Active Member

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    Just a quick question cwf.green, do we only have this one 2700T train or are there several? If yes, which service is it?
     
  10. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Like Matt mentioned in the stream I was going to make a thread/document that detailed each service and what train formation is used. Unfortunately real life got in the way and I’ve been completely swamped with work the last week but I’m hoping to make the thread some time next week.

    I can say that the 2700t train is used in 4 services though:

    09:36
    13:46
    18:08
    20:42

    All services are northbound via the avoiding line.
     
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  11. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    Anyone knows the brake weight of the Uacns wagons?
     
  12. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    Is it not written on the changeover device?
     
  13. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    20211020111715_1.jpg 20211020112112_1.jpg
     
  14. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    I'll check when I get home if I have it written down but based on some pictures I found it seems to have a KE-GP-A brake (automatic load sensing) with either max 58t or max 60t.

    But the Uacns has not had the new features implemented and I have not had anything to do with the brake force values on that wagon so I have no idea if it actually brakes according to the real BrH/bremsgewichte (most likely it doesn't based on track record).
     
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  15. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    Okay, if they have automatic load sensing then there should be a marking (about halfway along the side) that looks like this, with the number in the green box specifying the maximum brake weight (in the example: 58.1 tons):
    uacns.jpg But since I can't see it in the pictures you posted, it might be missing on the model.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
  16. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    There isn't anything like that. :(
     
  17. cwf.green

    cwf.green Well-Known Member

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    Textures are only sometimes realistic. Other times they are composites of similar types of wagons or the artist have used fictional/inferred values. You can see this on many wagons in TSW if you know what the real world values should be.

    In any case, if the brake is of type KE-GP-A it has automatic load proportional brake (“A”). I found the value MAX 60t but this might vary if there are multiple variants.

    In the case of KE-GP-A max 60t the (“raw”) BrH will stay 100 up to 60t and the it is 60t / gross weight. GP implies it has G-brake as well as P-brake. “KE” = manufactured by Knorr “mit Einheitswirkung” (with standard behaviour/design).
     
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  18. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, just want to make sure I am not confusing things

    Is tygerways' spreadsheet to calculate Vmax applied to the whole route, or just the steepest section? (the 160 km/h downwards part on the avoiding line I think).
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
  19. OpenMinded

    OpenMinded Well-Known Member

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    IRL the driver would get a local restriction, which looks like in the post I have posted somewhere up, where the speed is restricted for passenger trains going up to 160kmh, however, with a certain brh are only allowed 150kmh where it goes down hill, which you are referring to.

    sorry for the long and confusing sentence, it’s late over here…

    EDIT: was meant to add something. There are rules to how often the speed limit may be changed like that, as it is distracting and sometimes confusing to the driver. There is a name to that rule as well, but I don’t have the details to that, yet.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
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  20. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    You can specify a max gradient in the sheet and it will show you if an additional limit will result from the gradient:

    For example, a max gradient of 0,6 % results for the LL-train in DRA in a V max of 110 km/h:

    grad1.png

    If you select a max gradient of 1,1 %, the sheet gives you a V max of 105 km/h:

    grad2.png

    I personally think that a max gradient of 0,6 % for the whole route (in Dresden) is enough. If you want to take the 1,1 % that the game gives you for a gradient on the avoiding route as relevant, than you can apply the reduced speed only for the track section in question (the northern part of the avoiding line).
     
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  21. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Ok everything is much clearer now. Thank you, to be honest I should have taken an in-depth look at it before.

    So, theoretically the speed limit should change for every different descending gradient, but as OpenMinded said obviously this doesn't happen in reality.

    So in reality what happens? I'm guessing the second option (using 0.6% gradient Vmax for the whole route and the 1.1% Vmax on the relative downhill part of the track) would be the most realistic, right? Also I wonder if they simply do not consider the gradient Vmax for longer uphill sections? That would make a big difference on other routes like MSB and RRO.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
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  22. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    I can't tell you from own experience, but as much as I understand it, those calculations end up in a Fahrplan (OpenMinded posted an example earlier in this thread) that specifies the applicable speed limits for every track section on the route.

    For game purposes I should say this makes enough sense. IRL I think the relevant gradients would be actually even lower (as I tried to show in one of my posts before).
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  23. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    If anyone can get DTG to give us the track profile data (and the locations of the main signals) we could actually calculate the relevant gradients for the whole route quite easily, like Lamplight suggested, and draft our own Fahrpläne.. :)
     
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  24. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't we work it out from TSW itself?

    Also I was thinking about doing a simplification, diving the route from Dresden to Riesa in 4 pieces
    1. Near Dresden (small ups and downs)
    2. Uphill section of the avoiding line
    3. Downhill section on the avoiding line
    4. Uphill just before rises
    It won't be perfect but maybe better than nothing?
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2021
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  25. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    If you keep track of the gradient that the in-game HUD gives you let's say every 100 meters travelled, you should be able to recreate the track profile well enough, I think. But this seems to be a lot of bother..
    Oh yeah, go ahead, looking forward to it!
     
  26. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Well, only using gradient data, and your spreedsheet, the speed limit for the a loaded Zacns consist (Bremsart G), going from Riesa to Dresden on the Avoiding line would be 90km/h everywhere apart from a descending grade (1.0%) on the avoiding line (between Km1.8 and 2.6) and at the end near Dresden Neustadt (Km115.0 to Km115.4 - 1.3%), where the speed would be reduced to 85km/h. Does this sound realistic?

    If this method is more or less correct I could use it for other consists as well, and create some sort of fahrplan

    However does the bigger distance between main signals on the avoiding line make any difference? The braking curve enforced by PZB is always the same.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
  27. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    where did you get that spreadsheet? looks handy,is it the one from the discors invite? cause that's expired
     
  28. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    It's a spreadsheet he made himself, available here
    https://discord.gg/Kpv7HNve
     
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  29. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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  30. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    Sounds good for me!

    It should not, cause the maximum braking distance is limited to 1,000 meters by federal law (if not running under LZB).
     
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  31. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    That's great, because, I believe Ebula is "personalised" for every train (so it knows the trains max speed, brh, etc...) so it should be possible to create a sort of virtual Ebula based off already existing sources such as this one
    https://rail-sim.de/forum/filebase/entry/7448-buchfahrplan-dresden-riesa/
     
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  32. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Thank you so much for this! I've been trying to find a real Buchfahrplan with no success and this looks like a fantastic substitute :D
     
  33. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    No problem, on Rail-sim.de "timetables" section there are plenty of other similar documents for TS and TSW routes, definitely recommend to check it out
     
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  34. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    You're absolutely right. I wasn't really familiar with the site as I'm on console, but there seems to be a wealth of useful resources available.
     
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  35. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Would it be interesting something similar to this made for every different consist? if I can find out more details about how it's created IRL? for example I've only laid out the 90km/h, but I don't know if I should have drawn the speed limits as, for example:
    90
    (160)
    or the other way around.
    Still, it's just an idea at this point.

    Mine is based on the document I linked above made by RailSim.de user andigladdi. And if I decided to go further I will try and reach out to him.

    HERE the Google Sheets version and HERE the version with the all the speed limits in place
     

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    Last edited: Oct 21, 2021
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  36. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    And I updated my sheet. It now contains more vehicles (escpecially the BR143 and the BR182). Moreover, I implemented the new intel that we found in this thread concerning the selection of the appropriate brake table (now follows the Fahrplan setting) and multiple car units in a long loco (LL) train.
    Updated versions are available for download on my discord server.
    Again, the link will be valid for one week.
    Corrections and other feedback is very welcome!
     
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  37. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think it's time to start using spoilers to categorize things better.

    Avoiding Line

    These are made after the 1.21 update, and because of that they won't be marked as updated.

    [UPDATE 20NOV20]: I once again want to apologies for the delay, but as explained a few days ago the repetitiveness of the work, togheter with real life got in the way of this project, as you can see is still not dead, more updates soon, both on the pax side and for the traditional line. I am deeply sorry for the delay,
    The good news are that the updated document (kindly created by tyger), will make the job of doing mixed trains and finding out what consists are running on each line a lot easier, and the Dresden to Roderau services are here.

    HERE you can find the pax services

    PDFs will come after I find a good way to share them (probabily via Microsoft One Drive in the near future, togheter with the raw excel files).

    I will continue to edit this post until I find a more definitive solution (I am also waiting to hear from the guy that made the original fahrplan at Rail-Sim.de to make the passenger timetables public).

    Thanks to:
    tygerways#2596, cwf.green and OpenMinded for the useful informations,
    Rail-Sim.de user andigladdi, I've used his TS timetable as a basis for mine (although there are some differences)
    Discord and Forum user: Hazawa and Discord user: ELITE620 for clearing some critical doubts about the Fahrplan.

    If you notice anything wrong let me know
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2021
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  38. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    These are lovely! I look forward to using them :D
    If you don't mind, might I ask you a few questions about the abbreviations used (since I don't have a Rail-Sim.de account to ask andigladdi)?
    • at km 71.4/71.6, what does El stand for? I assume it has something to do with the Schutzstrecke that is present in the TS version, but absent in the TSW version?
    • at km 74.8 What does the (Hp) after Nünchritz mean?
     
  39. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly right, it's the Schutzstrecke (I've decided to leave it in case someone wants to do it anyway, even if it's not functional in TSW)

    About (Hp) I'm guessing it is about this:
    "In Germany, a Haltepunkt (abbreviation: Hp) is a railway facility at which passengers can board or leave trains, i.e. an access point for travellers.

    In contrast to a Bahnhof, a Haltepunkt does not necessarily have railroad switches. There are exceptions, however, if it is locally connected to another service point. The important operational difference is that at a Haltepunkt only boarding and disembarking takes place (the train thus only stops), but at railway stations can be shunted or other trains can be awaited."

    Notice that I'm not well versed into some of this details yet (for example difference between Zsig, Bksig, etc... - I know the differences but I wouldn't be able to differentiate one from the other) and I'm relying on the TS fahrplan for them. And that is why I want to make sure the original creator is OK with me publishing the passenger one (which is finished for all services already - including the S1) I don't feel like it's original enough.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  40. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, I figured it was about Haltepunkt vs Bahnhof but had never looked into the distinction between the two. I appreciate your work and hope your talks go well :)
     
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  41. tygerways#2596

    tygerways#2596 Active Member

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    In case you might be interested where the legal definitions for Bahnhof, Haltepunkt, Haltestelle etc. are set out:

    Eisenbahn-Bau- und Betriebsordnung (EBO)
    (railway construction and service statute)

    § 4 Begriffserklärungen
    (terms)

    (1) Bahnanlagen sind alle Grundstücke, Bauwerke und sonstigen Einrichtungen einer Eisenbahn, die unter Berücksichtigung der örtlichen Verhältnisse zur Abwicklung oder Sicherung des Reise- oder Güterverkehrs auf der Schiene erforderlich sind. Dazu gehören auch Nebenbetriebsanlagen sowie sonstige Anlagen einer Eisenbahn, die das Be- und Entladen sowie den Zu- und Abgang ermöglichen oder fördern. Es gibt Bahnanlagen der Bahnhöfe, der freien Strecke und sonstige Bahnanlagen. Fahrzeuge gehören nicht zu den Bahnanlagen.
    (2) Bahnhöfe sind Bahnanlagen mit mindestens einer Weiche, wo Züge beginnen, enden, ausweichen oder wenden dürfen.
    (Bahnhöfe are railway facilities with at least one switch, where train services are allowed to start, end, give way or turn around.)
    Als Grenze zwischen den Bahnhöfen und der freien Strecke gelten im allgemeinen die Einfahrsignale oder Trapeztafeln, sonst die Einfahrweichen.
    (3) Blockstrecken sind Gleisabschnitte, in die ein Zug nur einfahren darf, wenn sie frei von Fahrzeugen sind.
    (4) Blockstellen sind Bahnanlagen, die eine Blockstrecke begrenzen. Eine Blockstelle kann zugleich als Bahnhof, Abzweigstelle, Überleitstelle, Anschlußstelle, Haltepunkt, Haltestelle oder Deckungsstelle eingerichtet sein.
    (5) Abzweigstellen sind Blockstellen der freien Strecke, wo Züge von einer Strecke auf eine andere Strecke übergehen können.
    (6) Überleitstellen sind Blockstellen der freien Strecke, wo Züge auf ein anderes Gleis derselben Strecke übergehen können.
    (7) Anschlußstellen sind Bahnanlagen der freien Strecke, wo Züge ein angeschlossenes Gleis als Rangierfahrt befahren können, ohne daß die Blockstrecke für einen anderen Zug freigegeben wird. Ausweichanschlußstellen sind Anschlußstellen, bei denen die Blockstrecke für einen anderen Zug freigegeben werden kann.
    (8) Haltepunkte sind Bahnanlagen ohne Weichen, wo Züge planmäßig halten, beginnen oder enden dürfen.
    (Haltepunkte are railway facilities without switches, where train services are allowed to stop, start or end according to plan.)
    (9) Haltestellen sind Abzweigstellen oder Anschlußstellen, die mit einem Haltepunkt örtlich verbunden sind.
    (10) Deckungsstellen sind Bahnanlagen der freien Strecke, die den Bahnbetrieb insbesondere an beweglichen Brücken, Kreuzungen von Bahnen, Gleisverschlingungen und Baustellen sichern.
    (11) Hauptgleise sind die von Zügen planmäßig befahrenen Gleise. Durchgehende Hauptgleise sind die Hauptgleise der freien Strecke und ihre Fortsetzung in den Bahnhöfen. Alle übrigen Gleise sind Nebengleise.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  42. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Good evening to all this subject is fascinating and I play more and more with freight trains just to have to calculate the BrH and see what percentage to apply and also know my maximum speed for the considered convoy on the chosen route.
    But I just have a question: how in the game is it possible to set the loco to G braking mode as well as the first five wagons and leave the rest of the wagons on P mode; in other words is it possible to set the braking mode on the wagons; on the locos you just have to turn a switch but for the wagons I don't know if it's feasible
     
  43. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    cwf.green showed what the switches look like on the cars here:
    As the cars are set up correctly for P/P, G/P, and G/G, you'll only have to mess with the cars if you need to run LL. In this case, search the cars for a (usually) yellow lever called brake selector by TSW and switch it from P to G for the first five cars.
     
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  44. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Thank you very much as I didn't even know that these switches existed on the wagons due to the lack of description manuals on the wagons. Very good to know.
     
  45. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    I made my own kind of ebula (for each german route). I made it specially for the gradients, so I didn't take notes on speed limits.

    EDIT:
    In the example attached, I took the steepest gradient for section. In other parts of the routes of course there are gradients but are too short in distance, less than 1km.

    The left side is going from Riesa to Dresden, and the right side is going from Dresden to Riesa (You gotta read it from bottom to top).


    [​IMG]
     

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    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  46. Betjoin

    Betjoin Well-Known Member

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    I do not know if someone told you that, but:
    - The Train Weight does not neccesesarily seit the PZB-Mode and the Bremsstellung. you can run Trains far more Heavier than 1600t in P(G/P). The 1600t are only a Factor if your train Consists of Wagon-Units (Like the double-Container-Cars Sggmrss). In that case the Train has to run in G in order to avoid inadmissible loads on the articulated joints within the wagons.

    - you don't have to deduct 25% of the braked weight for trains that run entirely in G. Those 25% are only deducted on Vehicles in G in Trains that run in P.

    Despite that you´ve made a pretty good job with the Spreadsheet.
     
  47. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    So you are saying that all the intermodal trains using the Sggmrss wagons should run in "G" mode with a max speed of 90km/h?
     
  48. Betjoin

    Betjoin Well-Known Member

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    If the Weight of the Car-Train (Train-Weight excluding the Loco) is exceeding 1600t, then yes, you need to set up the Train to run in G. Since there is no Intermodal-Train that heavy (at least not that i am aware of) you won´t need to do that
     
    Last edited: Nov 4, 2021
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  49. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Sorry I missed that detail, it's pretty late here, that makes a lot more sense thank you
     
  50. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    That would imply that the table cwf.green posted for brake modes (depending on train length and weight) is only applicable for those types of cars. Is that what you‘re saying? If so, then how is the brake mode along the train determined for trains with only conventional cars?
     

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