Rivet Games Has Been Involved In The Cathcart Circle Line

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by erg73, Jun 18, 2021.

  1. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    They seem to have constructed the landscape including the stations. I don't have this route, but it looks like they have done a good job, except for the pitiful lighting of the stations.
    With so much work, I guess they haven't had time to fix Arosa, including the broken timetable.
    IMG_20210619_002849.jpg
     
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  2. WVUadam

    WVUadam Well-Known Member

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    How come now we are just being told about this now . This is very misleading considering the impression was it was created by DTG. In there streams there was no announcement of Rivet or another developer studio working on this dlc.
     
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  3. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I found a video talking about that statement

    It is quite odd indeed that dtg have not said rivet was involved in the route. A company should let their customers know who was involved in the product. Not act like they did all the work. Seems kinda selfish to me

    It makes me think of some presidents of the united states who take all the credit for most work their predecessors actually did
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  4. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    Well above all else, I think the scenery on the Cathcart Circle Line looks rather fantastic, it's always felt slightly different compared to other UK routes and this pretty much confirms my suspicions. Regardless of who was involved with what, I think the end-product came out pretty good!

    Implying that there was some sort of malice or selfishness involved with this is...well..frankly it's a bit of a stretch at this point. Especially since Rivet is only just now announcing their involvement, which was their own choice to do so. It's never been said or implied that DTG worked on it by themselves, its just that it was never mentioned outright. And that's fine, this is actually a common occurrence, not just with TSW but across plenty of other games as well. That's why you might see all those other little studio logos when you boot up a game. Some choose to announce their involvement, some dont. At the end of the day, what really matters is the product that's given to consumers. We give credit to whoever worked on it, and move on. If someone later chooses to say, "hey, I worked on this project too!" Well, that's good for them. Rivet did well with the scenery and whatever else they were involved with.
    That's really all there is to it! :D
    I wouldn't know how else you could spin this.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  5. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Nobody is trying to spin it. Just stating an opinion
     
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  6. kevin.charb81

    kevin.charb81 Well-Known Member

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    In two minds about this. I love the route and the scenery, and understand that announcing their involvement in building the scenery prior to release would have hurt the reputation of the route. All told, no malice on the part of Rivet. I surely wouldn’t have bought it had I known they had touched it.

    Which leads me to Rivet’s current shoddy inventory of products. Short of a fix which seems like it’s never coming, feel like a fool for supporting Rivet during their growing pain period.

    Rivet - want to really show off your new found scenery skills, please fix Arosa Linie, especially the mountains in Chur.
     
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  7. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    It is not news that 2nd parties work on stuff for DTG, that has been done often before, for routes, locos, sounds and so on. What is odd is the timing, why is Rivet publishing this exactly now? Maybe because they didn't want to hurt sales, but now want the credit for their work so they will be considered less problematic in the future? Still not sure their products will live up to that standard later, we will see with the next release :)
     
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  8. Thorman

    Thorman Member

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    Rivet, how about fixing Arosa's awful scenery now?
     
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  9. HaibaraHariko

    HaibaraHariko Active Member

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    So I guess Rivet just can't make nice mountains? The mountains in CRR look nice but maybe they cannot use that technique or something?

    Both IOW and CCL look fine to me except the sea near Ryde (but that seems to be a core problem with the water). Even in ARL the streets near Chur are not that bad, but when I leave Chur there comes the problem.
     
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  10. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Rivet games will be bought by dtg, that’s why. They also said while team had been switched onto rush hour so I would envisage that links to the outsource
     
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  11. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    This is an interesting twist and one I didn’t see coming. This bodes well for the next Rivet route - which of course must now match this quality. I’m not sure why their involvement was kept secret until now, but good job. Cathcart Circle looks amazing.

    On a side note, I don’t have any ill feeling over the fact their involvement was kept hidden. There was obviously a reason for it. I don’t feel misled and Rivet clearly had no issue with DTG taking credit until now. Maybe Rivet wanted to get honest feedback without the taint of their previous two routes impacting opinion.
     
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  12. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I saw a picture on here the other day about the ufo and I did think it was a strange dtg collectible given their preference to reality.
     
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  13. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    They are based in Scotland, so it makes sense.
    But it is striking that they are making this announcement a week after the launch. It's as if they've seen the good reviews and want to earn recognition for a job well done and make amends after the bad reception they got with the Arosa landscape.
    As a side note, then of the latest TSW releases, we have that:
    -Arosa Linie was made by Rivet
    -TSG participated in BR101
    -Skyhook participated in Hamburg-Lubeck
    -Rivet participated in Cathcart
    -Cane Creek is made by Skyhook.
    So DTG has only worked 100% at Clinchfield, which leads me to believe that many of the staff have been working on the rush hour and new upgrades for a long time. And Boston-Providence is largely built by Brandon Phelan.
    All of this gives me hope that we're going to see some big, good quality stuff in Rush hour :D
     
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  14. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I mean, this is standard practice across all industries. When you buy a car, there might be written a brand on it, but there are so many parts in it from suppliers that never get credit for it and have no relation with the brand whatsoever, apart from selling their products to them of course :) Same here, it is still a DTG product, they are in control of what is done. Who actually does it is a different thing, and I would bet most routes have 2nd party content to some extent we never really get told about. I don't think it is hidden, it is just not advertised. Why Rivet changed that now, no clue, maybe we'll know eventually :)
     
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  15. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Why would Rivet be bought by DTG, where did you get this information? Isn't it even that Rivet was founded by previous DTG employees? ;)
     
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  16. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I really don't understand how some people always find a reason to complain about everything. As far as I can tell GCC is one of the best british routes (considering the discussions in this forum), there were even posts where people explicitly pointed out that the scenery is well done, but now people feel mislead? Why exactly? Having second party involved in a DLC is pretty standard as erg73 said. I'm actually very pleased to find out that Rivet took a great part in GCC. Because now they have proved they can build scenery well. This gives me hope for future DLC's by Rivet. I'm actually very happy for every 2nd and 3rd party dev that makes good content for TSW as I hope more of them (like 3rd party involvement by AP, Aerosoft, 3Dzug, VirtualRailroads) will follow in future.
     
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  17. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    It appears from the statement they only built the stations, some buildings and a few other things. Presumably DTG staff then placed them in the world. "We lovingly crafted the scenery, including the stations & buildings."

    I imagine they'll have used a 2nd party to model buildings because DTG didn't have time, and since Rivet are based in Scotland, they seemed like an obvious choice.

    As for Rivet, they didn't really have the pressure of building a whole route, just modelling a few buildings, so could perhaps afford to take their time a bit?
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  18. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    When you buy a car does the manufacture tell you who has made all the switches, the cooling fan motor, the windscreen, the seat upholstery etc? No they don't, but I can assure you that said car manufacturer does not manufacture many of the items that appear in their vehicles.
     
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  19. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think your opening comment contains the reason. Have you not noticed there are some who never have a good word to say about anything and just complain all the time, yet miraculously seem to own every DLC which has been released!
     
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  20. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Creating a cameral environment is healthier for Rivet **, for sure, hehe
    ** it is probably healthier and easier at all \o/
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
  21. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    I’m glad this thread has triggered all the right people anyway!

    In some threads, you have the usual people saying that, Rivet = Bad, and they won’t buy another DLC made by Rivet. So it’s absolutely fantastic to know, that people have unwittingly done just that, bought a DLC that Rivet have been involved in.

    I’m glad it wasn’t revealed earlier, just imagine the pages of negativity we would have had on here otherwise.

    Job well done Rivet!
     
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  22. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    I was surprised, too. The final product is still fun after a week nonstop playing so I re-calibrate my opinion about Rivet.

    Edit: It's true I would have postponed the DLC until a year patches if I knew about Rivets' involvement prior to release
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  23. Thorman

    Thorman Member

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    Maybe you can understand the discontent of people who bought a €30 DLC with trees looking as if they were cut in paper and horrible blurred rock formations near the tracks. Doing a good job in Cathcart just shows they were able to do Arosa correctly but they didn't.
    They are now trying to improve their corporate identity, but the damage is done.
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Or you could be talking nonsense. Doing some scenery and stations isn't the same as doing a full route with associated trains, timetable etc
     
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  25. Thorman

    Thorman Member

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    You are right, maybe they are just not able to do a full route correctly (although I enjoy the Isle of Wight).
     
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  26. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    The Isle of Wight wasn't bad, the distant scenery was disappointing but that seems to be a TSW feature and the water quality was not very good in my opinion and not as good as it looks in TS1 routes but I don't think those are Rivit issues. Their TS1 work seems to be a good standard and their train modelling seems very good in general. I think they are getting a bit of an unfair press. However, when I saw the distant scenery and the bare landscape on the Arosa line it did turn it from a definite purchase to a possibly in a sale purchase but it doesn't mean that they have become the devil incarnate of TSW developers!
     
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  27. BladesAndRazors

    BladesAndRazors Member

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    Beware all Rivet haters who bought CCL throw up lol.
     
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  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't add any ideology to it. The creators deserve praise. It is nice scenery.
    Why see conspiracies and extreme emotions everywhere.
     
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well the opening post seemed to almost imply a conspiracy. They haven't fixed Arosa as they have been working on Cathcart. That might not have been the intended implication but it reads like it.
     
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  30. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I do not attack anyone directly, but I only notice that it is rather an optimistic phenomenon - participation in creating a successful product :)
     
  31. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Well I'm very critical of Rivet after Arosa was just a big disappointment: The very bad distant scenery, the passenger coaches sound like american freight cars from the 50s, the broken timetable, lack of ambient sound and the fact that they communicated this weird derailment bug as "This happens because the players are not smart enough" while in fact it WAS a bug, as stated by Matt - this all made me very unsure about future rivet DLC's. But the fact that they were involved in the brillantly done GCC made me a little bit more comfortable with the next Rivet DLC. I'm not that much into british stuff, so I'll skip Penzence, but I'll give their next swiss route (i guess one will come after this DLC) a chance.
     
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  32. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Which begs the question as to how Rivet have the time to work on this route but not fix outstanding issues on their other two routes which some have complained about for months
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  33. erg73

    erg73 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I partly intended to show my dissatisfaction with the abandonment of Arosa Linie. I think it's great that Rivet Games is working on other projects and getting involved in other ones. They are a company and they have to have sources of income, but after all the criticism of Arosa my humble opinion is that it would be good if they would be more communicative and tell us if they are working on fixing the serious problems of this route three months after its launch.
    It seems to me that to boast that they have done a job after seeing good criticisms and at the same time hide their heads like an ostrich with the bad ones is not the way to do things in a company. Especially if they want to regain the trust of their customers.
     
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  34. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    It's not about spin. It's not even about the Scottish Office's competence (in my opinion). The issue for me is just how fragmented the production of DTG's DLCs are.... and how that is managed, or not managed. And who takes responsibility, and who tries to not take responsibility. Is it the Chatham Office, or is it the Scottish Office....? Blur it a bit, and maybe it is nobody's responsibility to fix anything, so there is no possible way for anything to get fixed.... So.... why don't people just move on now... and buy the next DLC....?

    Anyway, as long as the Scottish Office had fun and enjoyed themselves, then that is all that matters in the end. Even if the stations are poorly lit, and make #ScotRail's operation look like a decrepit and de-funded late 1970s hell-hole with abandoned stations, as long as they had fun, then that makes everything okay. And anyway, it adds to the immersion not knowing if a passenger will leap out of the shadows, break into your cab and very gently stab you seventeen times with a broken pint glass. And - actually - maybe the poor lighting at stations was done on purpose, because maybe we will get a Glasgow Legends of the 1970s pack, with a slightly repainted Class 314 and a new timetable... for just £15...? That would be great...!
     
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  35. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Hang on... tallboy7648 said "A company should let their customers know who was involved in the product"..... and he didn't say "A company should make all of the parts in their product", so your argument that a car manufacturer does not manufacture many of the items in theiir product appears to me to be a bit of a non sequitur...... Any car manufacturer will give you a complete list of exactly who made all of the parts, if you ask them, and they might even you tell exactly which factory all of the parts were made in. And they would usually list major components in their specification and marketing materials.

    Anyway.... I am very very pleased that you used car sales as an anology. Because when you buy a car, you get a warranty. And if one of the components is broken..... then the company that sold you the car will get the manufacturer to make good on the defect. But this doesn't seem to happen with TSW DLCs (or maybe parts of DLCs) that are made in Scotland.... but maybe it should....? Maybe DTG should now ask the Scottish office to fix the IoW and Arosa DLCs..... to make good on the overall product, as sold by DTG...? And maybe DTG should fix Cathcart as well.....?
     
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  36. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    But... why should this interest us at all? That's not our job unsell you are working for DTG or RVG, which i highly doubt. The production may be fragmented - but it worked right? Again: I can't think of any DLC that was so much hyped after the release like GCC. So that plan worked, didn't it? Same thing for the DB BR 101 - no german loco got so much good feedback from the german community after release like the 101. And TSG's Maik Goltz worked there as 2nd party. So I think you and your rather cynical comment are pointing to things that are quite...meaningless.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    And when pretend train-driving products cost 20,000 pounds, they'll come with warranties.
     
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  38. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Okay did anyone acutually ASKED DTG who hepled them building the route? Did you? Is there any comment in this forum where someone had this exact question? Please show me.

    What exactly do you want to see fixed?
     
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Time... Money... If Rivet were 2nd party for GCC then they would be getting PAID by DTG to do that work. They wouldn't get paid to do fixes...
    Cynical perhaps, but it makes perfect sense to me
     
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  40. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    :D
     
  41. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    That's easy to answer. They have no plans to fix any outstanding issues, ever. So, they had plenty of time.

    They could easily counter the statement above by producing a list of outstanding issues that they recognise and that they intend to fix, and the date that they intend to fix them by. They could produce a "Bugs and Issues" list. But you won't see this happen, because (it appears to me) that they have no intention to ever fix anything. Ever.

    And many will see that as a good thing, because they will have more time to make and contribute to more broken DLCs, which is obviously a wonderful thing to look forward to....!
     
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  42. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I would envisage the ever occurring acknowledgment of unfixed items will remain ever acknowledged and ever unchanged
     
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  43. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Where have you got this idea that Cathcart will NEVER be updated?

    That would just set them up to be called out as liars if they miss a release date they set purely to make people happy. What happens if a bugfix actually breaks more than it fixes, and can't be released by the date offered.

    They can say they intend to release before a given date but people will see that as they will release on that date.

    They used to do a similar thing, and put individaul fixes on the roadmap. They stopped because it was too unreliable.

    Also, despite what you might think, a headlight being a bit too dim is not a game breaking bug in urgent need of fixing.
     
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  44. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    What do you think?
     
  45. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Not really. If DTG produced a "Bugs and Issues List" with a list of bugs and a list of issues, with projected dates for the bugs and issues to be fixed and patched, then it would demonstrate that:

    - they listen to feedback on bugs and issues that the community discovers;
    - that they have the capability to recognise the difference between original product spec and real release;
    - that they have assessed any bugs and issues, and have appraised the amount of time needed to address them (this can be difficult, but they should have some insight into their own software);
    - that they have the capability to plan ahead and set targets for themselves; and,
    - that they are willing to apply resource to fix the bugs and issues that matter to their customers.

    These are all positive things that DTG could demonstrate, if they have the ability to do so, by producing a list of bugs and issues. The original "Roadmap" list merely demonstrated that it wasn't appropriate to ask a marketing person to manage a list of technical issues - such people would be better deployed on making harmless comical "Failure" videos about transport-related games, which is something that they are really good at.

    But my point was actually about the Scottish team that develops bits and bobs for DTG to sell (like Arosa). DTG actually does have a track record (so far) of re-working and patching the DLCs that they claim to develop in Chatham.... but DTG's products that are sub-contracted to the Scottish team seem to not get any attention at all, and are, for absolutely no good reason, not on Adam's list of routes to "Preserve", even though they are 100% DTG products, published by DTG, and sold by DTG, for the benefit of DTG.
     
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  46. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Err, hang on yourself! Have you actually asked DTG? If not, then how do you know they wouldn't? Tallboy said a company should let people know who was involved in making the product, well, unless someone asks a car manufacturer who made the components, they aren't going to volunteer the information!
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2021
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  47. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Maybe. I think that you make a respectable point, although I am very very pleased that you make it in the form of a question, to which my answer is "no".

    I would argue that "all of the stations, scenery and major buildings" would fall into the category of "major components in the specification" (for a railway themed DLC.....), as described in my argument, and should therefore probably have been mentioned in DTG's marketing materials.... without having to ask for it...., but only if the Scottish team is regarded as being distinctly responsible for those components. The marketing for this route was quite extensive - it's somewhat surprising that they were never ever mentioned.

    However, the thing that matters in the end is who is responsible for the route. And that is always DTG in every single case - the organisation based in Chatham. So, from my perspective, it doesn't matter to me (personally) that some TSW developers in Scotland worked on a Scottish route for TSW (that would make sense, after all....!).

    It would also explain the diabolical lighting at the stations.

    And actually, I agree with some of the posts upthread that congratulate the Scottish guys for pulling off a bit of a fast one by remaining anonymous, and preventing their poor reputation from affecting sales. This strikes me as a very sensible and most expedient thing to do, in the circumstances - but it is slightly off-putting, because now I wonder if they were responsible for making Oakville.... and if they did, then I would very much like them to put their hands up now and admit to their horrific mistakes...... ;-)
    --------------------------

    EDITED: To replace "the part based in Chatham" with "the organisation based in Chatham." The original wording could give the misleading impression that "Rivet" is a "part" of DTG, which was not the intention of the author, even if all of Rivet's development work for TSW is published and sold by DTG.
     
    Last edited: Jun 23, 2021
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  48. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Actually, though many of us feel that Oakville is unfinished and an opportunity to make an exceptional route was missed, I think it is very well modeled, has some interesting gameplay and comes with the GP9RM, arguably one of the best locomotives in the game. Whoever made it, there certainly weren't any "horrific mistakes". Only the good Lord knows where some of your remarks come from. I don't need a reply, but, if you must, please keep it under a million words.
     
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  49. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    By your own rules, DTG are responsible for Oakville. You’re just having wild stabs in the dark now and there’s no need to bring Oakville up here anyway. Any excuse though, eh?

    I see also that you are keeping up with your conspiracy theory that Rivet Games is just the “Scottish Office” of DTG, based on not a single piece of evidence. It’s very tiresome. Both that and bringing up Oakville at every opportunity.
     
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Dovetail used to have a second office in Perth, which is now the same location as Rivet (who are also known to be a spin off from DTG)
    That doesn't mean I agree that Rivet are "the scottish office" but there's definitely a history there
     
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