Rivet Response To Arosa Criticism

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by SBos, Mar 23, 2021.

  1. SBos

    SBos Well-Known Member

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    Here's a little statement from us to you:


    In making this route, we are trying to provide players with a challenging, narrow-gauge, twisty route which simulates some of the steepest gradients that exist on standard adhesive (non-cog) railways. As you’ll appreciate, building any simulation of this type requires a compromise between many factors that are hungry for performance. During the development, we knew that some components would have to be simplified to achieve generally acceptable framerates, so we decided to prioritise the driving aspects and close-scenery.

    The problem with simply adding more trees is that there are obviously hard limitations of how many assets, and the detail level of each, there can be in a route without impacting gameplay and performance, particularly when trying to make something run well across three different platforms with different performance capabilities.

    We are very conscious that other routes have put more of their performance budget into trees, but every route is different, and we've tried to get the best overall experience for players for this particular route. We did try having more trees in earlier builds of Arosa, but it caused a drop in frame-rate, and we thought people would value a better gameplay experience more.

    So whilst we'd effectively have to re-do most of Arosa if we wanted to change it now, it's something we'll think hard about for future routes - and if you don't think we got the balance right with Arosa, what's useful is to tell us where you think we've perhaps added *too much* detail that we could trade-off to have more trees, and we can factor that into the plans for future routes.
     
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  2. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    Give me performance over distant scenery everyday of the week, nothing kills emersion more than jittery frame rates, it’s a deal breaker for me, when speed is an integral part of the game, frame rates must be smooth

    I would love the Bakerloo line on my PS4 but it does my head in from a jittery stop/start frame rate that really spoils the experience

    Games need to be built around smooth performance not over indulgent graphics that kill emersion because they kill the console, game experience is everything, eye candy is a bonus but over ambitious eye candy is detrimental overall
     
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  3. SBos

    SBos Well-Known Member

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    At the end of the day I don’t recall many Companies who actually do a couple of 1hr plus streams showing the game off before you buy it. If it’s not up to your standards or you don’t like it then you don’t buy it.
     
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  4. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that person A wants more trees and more impressive distant scenery so Rivet/DTG or whoever implements this and then straight away, person B will complain about frame rates. They can’t win either way. Maybe the promised optimisation upgrade will help.

    TBH, I was generally impressed with Arosalinie in the stream and, yes, I noticed the lack of texture in the roads around Chur and the mountains but, at the end of the day, this is a train driving simulator. For those who want lovely scenery, I watched a nice driver’s eye view video on Youtube last night.
     
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  5. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    totally agree with junior hornet no matter what if anything is sacrificed in the game either to make it run smoother or look better people will moan what has been removed to create there's kind of no win when it comes to things like this
     
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  6. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    It is a driving simulation and why performance is more important than distant trees and far off graphics/textures, I don’t get why anyone would want distant scenery over smooth performance but yes, it’s all about priorities and choice
     
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  7. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I think it shows how poorly optimized tsw2 is. I'm sure next gen consoles wouldn't have this issue and high end pc's as well but it's last gen that's holding it back in my opinion because you have to get it working for every game platform
     
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  8. ildario77

    ildario77 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with Samo1. Pop-ups, washed-out textures are ugly to see, but nothing is worse than bad performances and stuttering. If this thing runs smoothly, well, I will buy it.
     
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  9. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    Sure, but I wouldn't want to drop $30 on a product with visuals that are well below those on other routes that I have also paid for. It's not about performance over graphics, or graphics over performance. There needs to be a good balance between the two, otherwise you will run into complaints, and unfortunately this is exactly whats happening with the Arosa Line.

    What is a train game if it only focuses on the driving? I would argue that scenery is an integral part of the simulation as well. Not only is it important for real-world drivers/engineers to recognize and reference landmarks, but it is also a part of the train experience as a whole. There is a reason why some people enjoy riding a train vs. flying on a plane.

    Among all of the highest-rated routes for TSW, one of the common traits they share is good, interesting scenery to look at. Think of East Coastway, or Munich - Augsburg (yes, even with its poor performance, it's well-liked by people who have it), or perhaps even Northern Trans-Pennine. They all certainly have a unique feel to them, and that's thanks in part to its scenery. In its current iteration, I don't think that the Arosa Line will be able to live up to these other routes, because of this exact reason. It's scenery lacks in character and in graphical fidelity. As a consumer, I don't want to choose between either good graphics or good performance, I would want both, at least to a reasonable extent.
    Yes, this discussion has been thrown around a lot already, but this isn't something that can be thrown under the rug and hidden. I want to be able to support Rivet Games, but if anyone were to put out something like this, I most certainly will not spend $30 on it. Judging by all the feedback, it's clear that I'm not alone in this sentiment.
     
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  10. IfICanDream

    IfICanDream Active Member

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    Maybe I’m an oddball but scenery isn’t the only thing I look at in this game. The experience of handling the train in different scenarios and environments is what I adore about this game. That’s this game. I’m more a passenger train person than freight but it’s all part of it. It’s running the train.
     
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  11. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with what you said but people do have different expectations and some don't care about the scenery. Heck I bet if the London Underground Metropolitan line was made and one part had the tunnels and once you got outside, it was a desert environment some people probably wouldn't complain. Scenery is a important part of the simulation because you want to feel like you are driving that route. There needs to be a balance of performance and scenery. It cant be "Let's get 60FPS but make the route look like a Lego video game" especially if your charging $30 for said product. I do hope Rivet learn from the feedback and not make a similar error again. IOW was a good looking route but Arosa seems like a step backwards
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
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  12. Crochunter1970

    Crochunter1970 Active Member

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    From the streams I have watched about this line, I suspect the scenery will look very good from cab view. As long as you take the 1st person view of the driver, it will all hold up pretty well. Take 3rd person view from outside the train and things will go down a notch.

    Of course, until I actually play the game myself, that's my opinion. If anyone disagrees with my opinion, I respect your right to be wrong.
     
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  13. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    **looks at the price- £24.99**
     
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  14. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    Of course there has to be a balance between performance and graphics but performance must be priority because it’s graphics that kill the performance

    As performance can’t be increased beyond a certain point, graphics have to be aligned to fit performance as performance can’t be magically enhanced to suit the graphics
     
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  15. Railmaster

    Railmaster Active Member

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    TSW- means that an tree simulator?
     
  16. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and thats exactly the sort of mentality that lead to all of this feedback on the Arosa Line. Some people will worry too much about performance impacts, and hold back on graphical fidelity to the point that it turns away potential buyers, myself included.

    The fact that Clinchfield was previewed shortly after Arosa was nearly comedic.
    You don't have to take my word for it. There's been several posts here on the forums from people saying they'll choose to buy Clinchfield and not Arosa. Why? I'm willing to bet it's because Clinchfield just looks better while still performing similarly to other TSW routes (based on the FPS shown in the preview stream). It's a far-cry from the low resolution textures and barren landscape used on the Arosa Line. Of course some people are going to be happy and contempt with Arosa anyways, and that's perfectly fine, I don't want to take that away from them. However, I do want to point out that it's exactly this 'performance is a priority' mentality, that has lead to Arosa failing to achieve its full potential.

    There needs to be a balance between both, not a choice between one or the other. I am reminded of the saying, "too much of a good thing, is a bad thing."
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2021
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  17. Costpap

    Costpap Member

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    I mean, to be honest, while getting a balance between FPS and scenery would be best, unfortunately, FPS is kind of more important than scenery. Low FPS can cause headaches, nausea and motion sickness amongst all other things. Last time I checked, not having enough trees in the background shouldn't give you a headache, maybe just a mild annoyance. I would rather see an adequate enough number of FPS as to not give me any headache or unpleasant feeling which makes me unable to both play the route and use the system I bought the route for, where in the case of consoles, it's meant to be compatible with and specifically optimized for that console. Maybe someone else would not care at all about getting headaches or motion sickness and would rather stare at trees all days, but what I described above is my take on this. It doesn't have to be 60FPS, just enough to avoid causing a headache. That's all.
     
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  18. Samo1

    Samo1 Well-Known Member

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    If a car has a max speed of 200mph why put tires on it that are capable of 230mph but make the car unstable?

    The graphics and performance have to suit each other, graphics that put an unnecessary strain on the engine simply doesn’t make sense and simply hinder the experience
     
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  19. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    There are other games though that have a balance of both and do just fine though and other routes in the game like rro and now clinchfield have good looking scenery and perform just fine. This "Performance is a Priority" mentality has turned away some people from arosa and to clinchfield because it's a better looking route. Most of dtg's routes have decent scenery and perform just fine because they clearly strike a balance between performance and scenery. IOW was a good looking route yet this can't be. Train Sim World should be the simulation of driving a train in a route that looks close to how it would be in real life and with decent graphics and textures especially with all the new gaming tech coming in. There should be a balance of both because too much of one thing is not a good thing otherwise potential customers will simply not buy the product
     
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  20. Costpap

    Costpap Member

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    To be fair towards Rivet, Arosa is a way more complicated route than Clinchfield is, or any other route for that matter. You have cars driving right alongside you, in front of you, behind you, etc. That's something which is nowhere to be found in other routes. I would imagine that this involves a lot more calculations on the CPU, instead of the scripted AI on other routes which just goes from Point A to Point B. If Rivet's statement is anything to go by, the narrow-gauge, steep grades and the route the railway takes require a lot more calculations in comparison to a "traditional" route. While I don't really have a lot of knowledge about UE4, I'd imagine that the AI traffic is what needs a lot more CPU calculations, rather than what Rivet saying. It could still weigh in, but shruggo.
     
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  21. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I think that's very debatable.
     
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  22. kennyjamesscott

    kennyjamesscott Well-Known Member

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    This is now second time people go barmy over Rivet. I wonder how many more routes there will be before they pack it in and say, not worth it.

    Edited by DTG Natster, removed inappropriate language.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 25, 2021
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  23. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    And unfortunately I don’t think Rivett games are in this forum- they are too busy sugar coating everything in their ’dead’ forum
     
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  24. kennyjamesscott

    kennyjamesscott Well-Known Member

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    Thankfully as if I were part of the Rivet then I would really think about if it's worth to create another route or not as people seem to not value their work.
     
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  25. formulabee#1362

    formulabee#1362 Well-Known Member

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    Especially with the 6 month old list of bugs for iOw that are yet to be fixed, and the recent backlash with arosa
     
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  26. kennyjamesscott

    kennyjamesscott Well-Known Member

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    What's the point of fixing them if their work is not valued?
     
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  27. Costpap

    Costpap Member

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    Well, not so much. Have you seen any other route, from DTG or not, where cars drive on the same path as the train itself, alongside it, and are allowed through junctions where the train itself passes? Unless I'm mistaken, that's the first route of its' kind. In every other route, cars just go from Point A to Point B before despawning. In Arosa, it's a lot more than that.
     
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  28. whiteleym#4287

    whiteleym#4287 Member

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    Maybe their work would be valued if it was fixed?
     
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  29. kennyjamesscott

    kennyjamesscott Well-Known Member

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    And that is a circle of death. Or life, perhaps?
     
  30. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Fine, you make a valid point. But I could point to animations in other routes, such as the tanker filling in Oakville, coal loading and turntable operations in SPG. Many routes have innovative aspects. I have purchased Arosalinie, but not because I thought it was especially "complicated". I could mention the absence of any evidence that cars have actually driven on the streets of Chur.:).
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2021
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  31. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    Yeah you know Tree Simulator World
     
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  32. Turbojugend

    Turbojugend Active Member

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    Well, we already have Bee Simulator, Deer Simulator, Job Simulator and Goat Simulator. Living life as a virtual tree can't be that too far of a stretch.
     
  33. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Ever heard of the Frankfurt U-Bahn in TS2021 which has cars and the train running side by side in some parts. Tramsim as well(Tramsim is made by a different developer)
     
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  34. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    It's no wonder most of the newer routes are subpar everybody want so many extra things added in and everything perfect and totally 150% realistic,it's no wonder the routes trains only get worse,there no time to make them right before release.
    Yea yea i know this is debatable either way....but...

    This is Train Sim World 2
    Not rock sim world.
    Not tree sim world.
    Not mountain sim world.
    Not cloud sim world.
    Not automobile sim world.
    Not building sim world.
    Ect.Ect.Ect...

    This is about trains and if they don't work right the rest of the stuff on the route isn't worth much.
     
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  35. volvolover1972

    volvolover1972 Well-Known Member

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    This is one of the worst takes I’ve seen on this forum. What do you want? Only trains. Without a realistic environment, scenery, and weather you don’t have a train sim world you just have a train.
     
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  36. SHINO BAZ

    SHINO BAZ Well-Known Member

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    Well what fun is a great environment if the trains you drive on or in it don't work like they should?I don't play this game worried that the track ballist might not always be the right rocky color.(for example)...
     
  37. Costpap

    Costpap Member

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    Well, yes. However, it's an entirely different game, built on an entirely different engine. If they were both on UE4 or Railworks, what I believe is the name of the proprietary engine TS2021 uses, then maybe you'd have a point. Also, as far as I know, the trains don't run on the roadway in that route, nor do cars run on the tracks right after the train passes.
     
  38. stevens9001

    stevens9001 Member

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    I prefer the game play being spot on rather than the scenery being perfect, my advice is play any of the routes with the safety systems turned on an youll be too busy in the cab to notice the scenery.
     
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  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Ever heard of gta 5 which uses unreal and has a train lin running alongside the road. I have the Frankfurt U-Bahn in ts and the cars do run across and alongside the tracks
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  40. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    gta doesn't use unreal it uses the rage engine (rockstar advanced game engine)
     
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  41. Costpap

    Costpap Member

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    I have heard of GTA 5, however, it doesn't use Unreal Engine. It uses RAGE, Rockstar's proprietary game engine. In fact, UE4 wasn't even released when GTA 5 was released for consoles.
     
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  42. Lion-Face

    Lion-Face Member

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    Watching Hentis's stream, I dont see where the complaints are coming from. Beautiful route, and runs smoothly. Cant ask for anything more than that.

    If the tree complaints are coming from the distant mountain scenery, i believe thats more a TSW limitation with draw distance, along with shadow draw distance, and am looking forward to those being resolved in the future.
     
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