Roadmap Type Thread.

Discussion in 'Suggestions' started by dhekelian, Oct 26, 2021.

  1. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Would it be possible for DTG to have a sticky thread listing all bugs, errors and proposed updates for existing routes and Loco's. These could be listed per region, UK, US, EU, Swiss then in each region all the routes could be listed with the Loco's and with all the bugs, fixes and updates pending and maybe given it's priority status.

    Then once a fix has been done the route and RELEASED it could be crossed out and removed say after a week if it works OK.

    I ask this as the Roadmap tends to be two weeks apart (should be weekly imo) and things get lost. I know there is a write up but doesn't inform that well on existing routes. If written up earnestly it would be a help to long time players to see at a glance what the state of existing routes is at and help non-English speakers as it would be easier to translate.

    With DTG supposedly now be open perhaps they could start with a thread asking customers to list the bugs, errors or updates needed.
     
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  2. emdzej

    emdzej Member

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  3. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Didn't see that thread but yes I think it is a good idea, with two of us saying it, it might get read by DTG? lol. But I definitely think there should be threads dedicated to existing routes. Future DLC will always get the hype and sales pitch but the older routes like GWE tend to get forgotten.
     
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  4. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I think this is a good idea, but they have said multiple times that they will not put up detailed lists of bug reports. I personally don't agree with the reasons, but I doubt this will change unfortunately :(
     
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  5. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    If enough people ask for it I don't see them having much choice. A knowledgeable member from the forum could do it unofficially but I'd rather DTG do it if only to realise what needs fixing/updating and how long people have been waiting.
     
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  6. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I'd say you are misjudging the role of the community here, there are plenty other choices, we are not the ones calling the shots :) we can kindly ask and provide feedback, but it is their own decision in the end and they've been very clear what that decision is.
     
  7. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I never said the community did call the shots and what I meant is if enough forum members asked for it DTG would do something about it. I'm not aware of any decision by DTG saying they would not do it under any circumstances. And it would benefit DTG as well as the communitiy imo.;)
     
  8. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Creative Director Staff Member

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    So, I'll give you a full answer to this later, however let's see if you can switch our roles.

    What would happen if we did this? What would happen after that? Follow the dots. Paint me a picture.
     
  9. tcmikaelsouza

    tcmikaelsouza Well-Known Member

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    Sam, I believe the current Roadmap format is perfect, I think the colleague's suggestion would be more effective if a topic was added at the end, the main improvements to be fixed, bugs and the like, for example.

    [Fix / bug] Recover sound from Loco M7 and M3;
    [Fix / bug] Recover sound from Loco 387 GX and 377 SN;
    [Fix / bug] AI trains crashing in Dresden;
    [Fix / bug] Crashes in Dresden;
    [Fix / bug] AI trains crashing in London Commuter;
    [Fix / bug] Red signs.
     
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  10. emdzej

    emdzej Member

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    Maybe some threads created by you with specific routes and locos, just like Matt do in PC section. There are multiple threads with the same notification - this is bad, this is not working. They are all over a forum multiple times. Maybe one place for specific topics? I do not know if this is a good idea?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  11. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    What is being suggested is a thread listed the routes which would state all the bugs , errors and updates waiting to be addressed. And when fixes etc are done they would be crossed off the list. The thread would be done by DTG so I fail to see what roles are switching? Perhaps you can paint me something to understand?

    This would be good for everybody no? As with all the new DLC that comes out the older routes tend to be forgotten or lost. Looks like the suggestion has touched a nerve, that was not the intention. It was a meant as way for consumers who have the older routes or are thinking about getting them can get information on them easily.
     
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  12. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Creative Director Staff Member

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    Apologies, I'll speak more plainly.

    What would happen if we were to set up such a list?
     
  13. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be implying that if DTG were to acknowledge the bugs in the older routes the world would stop spinning. Obviously I am missing something monumental but from where I sit if DTG were to put up a list it would prove to me they were being honest and acknowledge what needs fixing or updating.

    Correct me if I am wrong but DTG do acknowledge some bugs and fixes so I do not see a problem. The only problem I can see is with third party software. If that is a problem then don't list them, simples.

    I get the feeling there is some sort of 'gotcha' coming but the bugs, fixes and updates are already known about and talked about on the forum. What is being suggested is to have them in one place. Unless of course keeping people in the dark is the way to go?
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  14. emdzej

    emdzej Member

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    Maybe you'll have also a place where people can raise objections to specific products. I played today at Boston Sprinter with F40PH. Without working ACS acknowledge, button B on XBOX, is useless if you want to play well. Boston are released 2 month ago. For today, this is not fixed.
     
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  15. emdzej

    emdzej Member

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    And :
    I have running service on Boston 1 hour. 1 hour of real life. And because i cannot acknowledge ACS in time, i have been stoped. This is frustrating ;-)
     
  16. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Creative Director Staff Member

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    Not a gotcha as such, more that creating such a list would only serve to make players less happy. My aim was for you to consider the outcome in the community of such an initiative being started. I'll illustrate:

    Even if such a list were restricted only to legitimate technical problems - excluding scenery, sound, handling characteristics that weren't felt to be authentic - how many items do you think such a list would contain? I'll use the technical reports forum as a guide here. There are 6000 threads on that forum. Yes, that goes back to the start of the game, but some of those that were mentioned early on may still apply. So let's be generous. Let's remove issues that have been fixed, that no longer apply, that are duplicates, that couldn't be reproduced or otherwise would be classified as not needing any work doing. I'm going to be generous and say that accounts for 80% of those posts. I may be under or over here, but let's take it as an example.

    That leaves us with 1,200 items on the list, some of which date back years. With each new release more items are added to the list, and a lot of these are dealt with but some aren't. They stay on the list. When we do a major core update or roll out a new feature a whole lot more items are added, the list keeps getting bigger, and as much as issues are dealt with following triage, confirmation, coding, retesting and release, the likelihood we ever completely catch up is somewhere around zero.

    As a player you'd look at the list and be stunned. Sure you may have only experienced a dozen of the things listed but you're now aware of the others, so you look out for them and when you see them you enjoy the game a little bit less. As a player, this is a good way to ruin something you enjoy. Meanwhile, from our perspective the list gets mentioned any time we do anything at all. It becomes increasingly difficult to have meaningful conversations because the list is always brought up. Every time. And why wouldn't it? That's not unreasonable. Sure, it might take 3 years to address everything on the list but there will be those who see that as essential to deal with all of it before doing anything else.

    Consider the current PlayStation 5 DLC problem. That's a major issue that we're working to resolve as quickly as possible. Except... you don't play on PS5. You've not experienced this problem. It's not the thing you care about seeing any improvement of despite it being our top priority. This makes you less happy because you want something else attended to first.

    The existence of a public list of this kind helps absolutely nobody. We already track these issues and fix as many as possible, focusing on the most important ones first but it is inevitable that not everything can be dealt with - especially when we're constantly pushing forwards, but those items would stay on the list.

    As a player you are doubtless eager to hear what is being dealt with, and that's why we have patch notes so you know what has been fixed, and as you probably know already those patch notes aren't always 100% accurate. Sometimes additional problems have been resolved, sometimes fixes haven't worked properly or broken something else. This happens a lot.

    In short, nobody wins. It doesn't help you get that thing you care about fixed. The additional problems you weren't aware of spoil your enjoyment (yes, ignorance is bliss in this regard), and we've provided players with a large, very easy stick with which to beat us, constantly, despite the vast majority of issues listed being something they never personally experienced.

    As you will have seen when we listed fixes in development on the Roadmap, it became impossible to track the movement of items that were being investigated or worked on which is why we removed them.
     
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  17. emdzej

    emdzej Member

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    Personaly, i got your point of view. Some people, may write false positive review in thread. But.. Wouldn't that help you improve the overall quality of product? If not. I'm apologise.
     
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  18. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    And from the players point of view, we are still left in the dark. I think you under estimate the players quite a bit if you think PC players don't have empathy with the PS5, I certainly do and with PS4 as well. I'll go further, XBox as well with their sound issues and with the German players having their route cut, not of us jump up and down like two year olds when we don't get our way, my back would not take it for a start.

    I can see what you are saying but come away more disappointed. What players want more than anything is the recognition that the bugs or updates exist. I'm not suggesting you list every single minute bug that exists in the game, that would be insane. But the ones most affecting players, or updates or even just the ones people are talking about on the forums. Players really enjoy the old routes but there are problems with some of them or updates that are still pending, like RD support for the GWE.

    I feel having such a thread will please more people than it annoys, if you take an overall picture of the forum now many people are frustrated, US, German, UK routes. We are constantly being told that DTG are open and that they will be fixing and updating on a more regular basis if this is true then players would see this as a positive move not a negative one. I can say what gets me frustrated as a player is when a new DLC comes out it usually has problems so DTG feel the need to prioritise that so any fixes for the older routes get kicked down the road.

    I think it was also mentioned by Matt that they were going to introduce a bigger team for addressing the problems so would it be that much of a problem for that department to make a thread the impending fixes and updates again I don't mean every single one but what stands out. I get the feeling from what is posted on the forums that some sections are not being listened to or being ignored, surely that is worse in the long run.

    But it isn't my company, DTG can run it as they feel fit, it's just my opinion. As I said I understand what you are saying I just don't agree. As a player I would love to go to a thread listing the issues and it would be great for newcomers who could decide if it worth getting and give DTG an incentive to fix it or is being kept in the dark preferable?

    Obviously the thread would have to be moderated to keep the false claims out, as they do not help anybody at all.
     
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2021
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  19. emdzej

    emdzej Member

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    People here say: more routes,more services. Ok. But how about old routes? They are gone? Sold? Game over? I know. That's a bussines. But... Maybe you will consider to extend older routes, add them new services, etc? Maybe it has been done yet? I'm preety new here. Game has a has a lot of potential. With Matt and Sam, a higher one. But...
     
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  20. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    ...
    And then that those fixes are being worked on, preferably with the engineer's name (so they can be hounded down on forums or streams) and the date when the fix will be done (and by done we mean out on all platforms)

    Unfortunately this is the truth of the matter. For every almost level headed, almost sensible almost person on this forum there are a dozen more asking for blanket social media bashing of companies because they think that company deserves it.
    Yes it would be helpful to have a list of fixes which are FIXED along with their associated release expectation or previously released date, but a list of "Well this has been reported but we don't know when it's going to be looked at, if ever" isn't really that helpful to anyone
     
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  21. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Looking at a forum for a similar product where this does exist, the MSFS Forums. Take a look at that - thousands of posts, and bear in mind this is totally outwith the bug reporting system Asobo have on Zendesk. It's not where you go if you want to report something, it's where you go to post about it, and as a result it's just a cesspit of moaning. Nobody goes there unless they want to post about a specific issue, nobody searches to see if the issue has come up before. It's an interesting customer service tactic, for sure, but I don't know if it's useful as a tool for anything other than letting off steam.
     
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  22. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    I particularly don't want to know all of the bugs in the game. I already try to self "censor" what I read on the forums and try to just stick to the announcements section lately.

    It just kills the fun of the game to hear problem after problem that might not have been noticed by some. Or if the scenery is not truly accurate and I'm not familiar I might not notice. Or even sounds like on the DB 187.

    Not saying its wrong to express feelings about bugs or errors, I fully expect it and the forums are the best place for it.

    I just think having a list on the roadmap would just make people antsy and more frustrated that things take time to fix. Alot of people are impatient and seem to think things can be fixed with a push of a button. And as Sam said it wouldn't benefit anyone really.
     
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  23. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Later…
    Without containing every bug, a list of bugs would be of little use. It’s either a list of all of them or no list at all, otherwise it’s pointless. As has been explained though, it would be of no real benefit to anyone and impossible to manage if it did exist and would ruin the game for anyone reading it in full. The current scattered bug reporting is actually of more use to both players and DTG, however unsatisfying it may seem. The alternative is worse.
     
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  24. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    What I meant by 'listing all bugs' was the most common bugs for all routes, I didn't mean every single little bug, it would impossible. Bugs, fixes and updates that enhance the playing of that said route. This forum would be of use to the older routes in the game where finding information on fixes or updates is sometimes lost.

    The proposed forum could be a closed forum like the announcements and so the fears of abuse above would be stopped before they began. For me it would be informative and newbies could be helpful in deciding whether to purchase it or not unless you think buying buggy DLC is the way to go. It could be a collection of issues with the older routes that are being reported on the forum. It would nice to know the old routes have not been forgotten and when things are addressed it would be brilliant PR for DTG making both parties happy or not going by the posts above.
     
  25. Knightfire1964

    Knightfire1964 Well-Known Member

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    i think 2 weeks is a good amount of time for progress to happen 1 just doesn't allow any time it's essentially 5 days of work. we are lucky enough to get them so frequently as many games don't follow something like this and its monthly or quarterly.
     
  26. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    As the DTG staff said earlier, take that to its conclusion and put yourself in the position of a potential buyer. Would you still get it after seeing this list of bugs? Would you actually know it exists unless you had the game? Likely no.

    Then bear in mind a bug for you might not appear for me. We have different GPUs, CPUs, maybe even operating systems - and that's before we remember console players. Reading your report is therefore useless to me cos it might never replicate for me, I'm not going to be the one testing or fixing it, and so at that point it's just trivia to me.

    I understand if people are frustrated at the pace a small team can work at but this would be a terrible idea that does nothing to improve that.
     
  27. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    What goes on the list though? One person’s hugely important bug is another’s “who cares”. There are other things that aren’t bugs but are just plainly wrong, like how the moonlight in Dresden reflects brightly off things but doesn’t illuminate them at all. Nobody but me cares about that but to me that would be near the top of the list of things that shouldn’t be like that in the game, far ahead of the wrong door closing sounds on a DMU that other people might lose their head over, even above some actual bugs. I can live with a few floating scenery items but not the magic loony moon that appears in the skies above Germany. I do get in a tizzy when heavenly bodies are wrong. When I’m facing the moon it lights things up but when I’m facing away from it total blackness. Madness I tell you, madness. That wouldn’t make DTG’s list if there was one but to me it is a huge issue that needs never to be repeated.
     
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  28. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    For me bugs like sound issues, safety systems not working, missing wheels, major scenery issues that can be seen from the cab etc. Game affecting issues. Yes I realise people will have different views on different bugs/fixes/upgrades but as this will be a DTG moderated thread then they would take the issues that most people complain about. All I'm after is more info on the forgotten routes and maybe a bit of accountability. TSW2 can get very expensive, I don't buy all the routes either and find it expensive but if the routes are worth it or fixed up so they become worth it then so be it.

    To answer your question Rybnicki, no I would not buy it if I knew all things wrong with that route if they were game affecting but that is the point to inform consumers and give DTG an incentive to fix it. Let me ask you something, lets say you came along to DTG for the first time and there was some DLC you really fancied, only that after you bought it there were bugs in it that DTG knew about but you didn't. Would you still be happy after your purchase lets say you can't refund it either?
     
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  29. Tank621

    Tank621 Well-Known Member

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    All things considered, would you rather have the team spend their time listing, categorising and sorting bugs for the bug 'roadmap', the vast majority of which you have never noticed or encountered, or would you rather they just got on with the bug fixes?
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
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  30. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    Not sure I entirely follow your point here but the absolute last place I'd look to research a £25 luxury purchase (which works out at about 3x more expensive for me than someone in the UK given relative purchasing power) would be a computer game's bug report forum, mainly because of its toxicity, as I mentioned.

    stujoy is right, it would be mad of Dovetail to hire someone to monitor and process these reports, none of which would help in actually fixing them. If I saw a way in which it would, I'd unequivocally agree with you, but as is I'm not sure the benefit of demanding the company essentially nail a list of errors to their door.
     
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  31. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    You seem to be under the impression that everyone at DTG is busy all the time or that they all fix bugs, they aren't and don't. The reason we got the Diesels Legend pack was because Adam's crew had nothing to do.

    If I had a choice I'd like a forum where the game affecting issues were listed that were affecting most players or updates for the older routes. Personally I'd rather be informed that not.

    Sorry you couldn't follow Rybnicki but that infers you wouldn't mind buying buggy software even if DTG knew about it, strange but each to their own I guess. And why would Dovetail need to hire someone? They have community staff already. Unless of course you think typing a few pages would be such torturous treatment? lol
     
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2021
  32. Rybnicki

    Rybnicki Well-Known Member

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    What it implies is I'm fully aware that it's an impossibility to expect utterly clean, bug-free software and that, for the price of a mid range dinner, we have not bought the right to hound the staff of a company to fix something that might be a problem for us and nobody else. I've nothing else to add because this is somewhat going in circles, I'm not sure we're likely to see this suggestion come to light though.
     
  33. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Are you confusing me with someone else? I have never said to hound the staff or anybody. The price of this 'mid range dinner' is not just one dinner but a huge banquet and gets expensive. I accept that you cannot expect bug free software especially from DTG & co. And you say these bugs and lack of fixes are a problem for us? That is a quite bizarre thing to say.

    But as you say it is going round in circles and unlikely to see this implemented, shame though.
     
  34. emdzej

    emdzej Member

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    Ja również zaproponowałem podział w innym wątku, ale jak widać ani DTG ani użytkownicy, nie są tym zainteresowani. Trochę to dziwne, ale cóż.

    Widzę też, że jest problem z niektórymi zgłoszeniami do DTG, np. problem z potwierdzeniem ATC w lokomotywie F40PH na mapie Boston - na XBOX przycisk B, nie potwierdza ATC, tylko alerter. Problem zgłoszony już w sierpniu, a do dzisiaj nie rozwiązany. Myślałem, że taki podział pomoże DTG. Może się myliłem.

    ===============================================

    I also proposed a split in another thread, but as you can see, neither DTG nor users are interested in it. It's a bit strange, but oh well.

    I also see that there is a problem with some DTG requests, e.g. a problem with ATC confirmation in the F40PH locomotive on the Boston map - on xbox the B button, does not confirm ATC, only the alerter. The problem was reported already in August, and to this day has not been solved. I thought that such a split would help DTG. Maybe I was wrong.
     
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