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Roadmap Update - 15th June 2021

Discussion in 'Dovetail Live Article Discussion' started by DTG Natster, Jun 15, 2021.

  1. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    I was watching the streaming but had to turn it off. It's become a joke. DTG used to make empty promises, now they just say empty words and clearly state it's not a promise.

    FFS, DTG can't even commit to small things like providing a manual for the simulation software they sell. There used to be manuals, now all we get are half-assed DLC and some tutorial videos here and there.
     
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  2. byeo

    byeo Well-Known Member

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    Oh dear, is the stream that bad?
     
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  3. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Yes all is coming with Rush Hour or after this like MSB and PIS for ECW
     
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  4. saltychipz#3569

    saltychipz#3569 Well-Known Member

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    Was this just confirmed on the stream ? I’m not watching at the moment
     
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  5. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Yes, that was confirmed.
     
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  6. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    Yes, basically, but don't expect too much since only the stuff which got approved as an actual improvement and working will make its way to a release.

    Don't expect anything before Rush Hour as well.

    That being said after it was mentioned that there was some work done on the 146 sounds but no feedback regarding whether its better or not is collected yet so it's not sure if it gets released I turned off as well...

    Hint: Anything other than the current sound is more realistic and an improvement. Even if you mute it completely or use the sounds of the GP38-2 instead...

    I really hope Rush Hour will turn out good but the current state of TSW2 clearly isn't.
     
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  7. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    Yes it’s not happen before :o
    But the PIS is ready since February, how terrible they handle the Updates :|
     
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  8. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    If someone is waiting for trains by TSG - the interesting part of the chat:
    EDIT look here
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
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  9. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    That was the only part of the stream which I found quite informative as Adam explained there still are some serious issues with Lewes not working correctly on the PIS so it therefore needs further work. That's fully ok and I am grateful for that information. Now we at least know what is going on.
    I find it fully ok to make mistakes as well. Even serious ones which make their way to a release. As long as you learn from them and actual work and do something...

    In german we say 'Wo gehobelt wird, da fallen Späne' - basically something like where work is done expect collateral damage..
     
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  10. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    But Maik Goltz Said that the G6 is released by August to September this Sommer
     
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  11. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Oh, interesting, I missed that. I remember that TSG DLC aren‘t expected this year, but with that wording, it implies a release late 2022 or early 2023 at the earliest. I‘m all for TSG taking their time, but that does seem somewhat long-ish.
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Well after watching the stream it seems most outstanding issues with older routes won't be fixed until after rush hour releases. Kinda expected that to be honest
     
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  13. Cotax

    Cotax Active Member

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    So i guess we can forget for RD support also.. So many favorite trains without RD support :(
     
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  14. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    That was mentioned making good progress in the last weeks, I would be more optimistic here as regarding some other issues..

    Yeah. Making it only 12+ months to take the TSW 2020 routes to a comparable state in its successor...
     
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  15. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Nonsense, sorry. No idea who LodeStar is, but what he said is not correct. Please do expect TSG content within the next 12 months. G6 planned August-September, 420 planned for around November, 232 planned for around February 2022.

    Was never said, not by me. If all went good, two of them will release thise year. See above.
     
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  16. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    That was said by Sam :)
    EDIT Thanks for the clarification and for the good news!
    Maybe "-" (1-2) was missing there. Who knows... /o\
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2021
  17. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    I really like the game and, more generally, the idea that DTG takes care of a more or less "niche audience" (please do not hit me, I like trains a lot).

    But the Roadmap and the way thngs are handled leaves me a bit puzzled. Yes, I am sure the team does the best they can.

    What I find odd is that each route (preserved or new) is treated more or less like a separate game, as if it was not part of TSW 2 but rather an entirely different product. Things seem to be developed from scratch every time and this is what I don't get about the concept.

    Maybe it is not the best example but if I buy Gran Turismo Sport and new tracks and cars are added, it is still Gran Turismo Sport, even though every car handles differently and each track is different.

    Having said that and in light of the non-statements made in today's stream, I do not have very high expectations. Sad but true.
     
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  18. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Even more on the bad side then....
     
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  19. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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  20. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Thank you very much for answering in this thread. Good to know a rough window for when we can expect to see your work :)


    It seems that DTG still need to work on their communication with third party developers.
     
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  21. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    DTG Protagonist it was you haha :D
    Now you have a time Schedule to tell next time.

    can you ask what’s going on with Skyhooks 187
     
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  22. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    another two weeks and I am still astonished as to what people expect to get from the roadmap in contrast to what it was made for.
    The roadmap threads have become the most painful to read through for me. Like some people expect it to be some sort of meatgrinder, where DTG put in data at the top, someone constantly cranks and every two weeks there will be some new sausages of content. Almost sensationally, people expect to see more and more announcements every roadmap and if there is nothing, it is a "boring/trash/garbage/LOVE roadmap".

    Same with the announcement of the new rivet train, what is the big deal? They did not promise to reveal it but hoped they will be able to. If you somehow spin that around to it being an empty promise, that is totally on you. What if the train had been announced today? What would it have changed overall for the dlc anyway? It probably is months away at this point, so knowing the rolling stock literally does not change anything at this point...

    Other companies don't give any development updates at all, or maybe some sort of season passes, and even those usually don't get updated every two weeks. This here reeks of entitlement and impacience - while at the same time those same people shout "Oh why don't you take more time for development, I can wait" before a release, but "no new routes AGAIN? Trash roadmap." every roadmap day....
    And DTG has been saying for weeks now that the movements on the roadmap will slow alot and that probably nothing new will get added until they switch to the rush hour preview/roadmap.
     
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  23. Michael Newbury

    Michael Newbury Well-Known Member

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    Raildriver support has not been forgotten, but because they're now putting focus on the Rush Hour product it will have to wait a little longer to be completed. It has in no means been forgotten or abandoned.
     
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  24. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Becoming clear to me that if they didn't do rush hour we would have been in a TSW3 scenario again. As it is they have to "rebake" all the routes in 4.26 so everything has to be updated just like before, and hence clearing out the cupboard of half finish and untested updates. Plus taking teams off their existing projects to do something else (Why is Adam doing the 313???) It all sounds a right mess.

    The Rush Hour means they are likely to get their £25 from many people for these 3 routes and that should pay for the time spent updating everything again. How sustainable this model is is unclear, this is one reason why TS doesn't get much updated as there would be knock on effects on so much content they are precluded from changing anything that would break some content. How long before there are too many TSW routes to keep updating everything each time the engine changes?
     
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  25. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I kinda find it a bit odd that it's taken almost a year to fix issues in older routes. Not really acceptable but I guess slow and steady wins the race
     
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  26. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I find it interesting that some people are rating this Roadmap and its stream as "1/10" and so on, which is just silly. There was plenty of information- but it wasn't the information people wanted to hear.
     
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  27. GothicMatt

    GothicMatt Active Member

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    Im sorry but you are wrong about other companies dont give any development updates, Activision do and it gets updated every few weeks i.e Call Of Duty Warzone
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
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  28. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    Warzone not Cold War
    EDIT: Oh nice he deleted his comment…
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2021
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  29. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    TBH, it was very clear that they were talking about what they were expecting to happen, and in no way it was a promise or something that they could guarantee. I understand that it feels bad to not get that info today, but we can't blame the messenger.
     
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  30. Inkar

    Inkar Well-Known Member

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    The problem is that new bugs are created much faster than they can be fixed. And now we got a new engine update, so right now I fear that some of the new TSW2 DLCs that are working fine might end up worse after the UE 4.26 update.
     
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  31. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    That's exactly what I've been thinking, you couldn't have said it better. People forget that a roadmap is essentially there to inform the players of the current state of developement (which only changes slowly) and not to make announcements every 2 weeks.
     
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  32. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I think we all (including DTG) fear this. But then again: The jump between UE 4.24 and 4.26 is not that big as it was between the UE version of TSW 2020 and TSW 2. Adam confirmed for example that he doesn't expect any broken audio when the preserved collection will be upgraded to UE .46. Of course bugs can always happen and we can expect here and there some weird things. But this is just part of the normal development process every games goes through.
     
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  33. bescot

    bescot Active Member

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    Did I hear correctly in last night's stream that ECW will only have updates to give us CIS - there's no new skybox or level crossing tech?
     
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  34. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yep - the focus of the "Roadmap" is rapidly moving away from talking about historical bugs and fixes and is becoming more forward looking and pure marketing in nature.. And to be fair DTG, that is actually what a "Roadmap" should do.

    But we still need a public "Bugs and Issues" tracker, as a self-contained ongoing project. It wasn't clear to me at all whether Cathcart would get any attention now, before Rush Hour is released (September 2021....?), or if we will have to wait two or three years for it to get "preservation treatment".
     
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  35. Luke8899

    Luke8899 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, for the time being. The context of what Adam said was that PIS is coming with the core update simply because it has to, as it is now incorporated into the latest builds which are updated to unreal engine 4.26. His team haven't done the full sweep of ECW yet so PIS is just what happens to have been done on ECW because it was added to the roadmap a while ago in response to player feedback.
     
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  36. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    I think the community have every right to complain when a serious bug doesn’t get fixed for months after release or when such bugs have been fixed but not released. However people are complaining about delays to such things as PIS on ECW, Raildriver support etc. Let’s not forget that these features were not part of the original release. They are effectively free upgrades which cost us zilch, nada, nothing but they do cost DTG in terms of development and testing resource.

    So I think that, although they have been promised and should be delivered eventually, we should expect them to prioritise resource on content which will bring in revenue (such as rush hour) and, importantly from the Preservation Crew perspective, fixes to actual bugs, Otherwise there will be no DTG in the future to give us these features.
     
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  37. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    They were totally clear on this... NO new development or releases will take place on any DLC until RH is released, because they're rebaking everything in 4.26
    I agree with this as a policy as effectively you'd update now then have to update (retest etc) in eight weeks

    And expect RH in August rather than September (hence summer rather than autumn)

    Adam is talking on behalf of the development team rather than just as preserved, If he only spoke about what his team do then the roadmap wouldn't talk about ANYTHING upcoming (and I'm sure more questions are asked about forthcoming things than historic issues)

    There is some logic to this. IRL trains run in very different situations including track bed, sleepers, signals etc etc so it wouldn't necessarily be right to use the same assets from one region and use them in another. Stations are always custom assets and even things like trees and foliage are very different depending on where you are, even within one country
    Yes, it would be much much easier to create a landscape if you could simply lift something out of an already used template but this would annoy a great many people as it's not what they see every day when walking past that location.

    I don't think it is the same. Not sure people who play GT are as picky about things as the train sim community
     
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  38. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    100% agree with everything that you have said here.

    I actually thought that the stream with Nat and Adam was done extremely well - probably the best "Roadmap" stream that we have seen so far. And although some will be concerned about having to wait until Rush Hour is released for free enhancements to come through, the overall picture was extremely positive, including:

    - WSR timetable roster being boosted by about 30%;
    - discussion on overhauling lighting across multiple routes; and,
    - call for feedback on how to handle manuals/guides/tutirials (maybe someone could start a thread on that...?).

    I also think that it is good that work on the Oakville and San Fran routes will be delayed. I sincerely hope that TrainSim-Adam has been given the green light to completely rebuild Oakville, to bring back the Hamilton yards, to include more freight, and to re-instate passenger services.... and then clean up the whole DLC and start testing it.......in order to bring it to the same standard as the other route DLCs. Although he might need to borrow a couple of the core development team to complete the remaining two-thirds of that DLC......

    There is still an elephant in the room though - which is exactly how will Rivet DLCs and other DLCs made by non-Chatham-based offices be factored into the rolling programme of improvements done by Adam's team.....?

    But anyway, well done to Nat for showing us all how these streams can be properly prepared for and then presented in a friendly and professional way, covering all of the relevant topics in half the time it has taken on previous occasions. Hopefully Nat will be facilitating these streams from now on.
     
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2021
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  39. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Who says they have to be?
    They could be updated by that third party, the third party could allow DTG to update them or they could be orphaned.
    Natalie did say towards the end of the stream that there would be an announcement on this in two weeks (ie the first rush hour roadmap stream)

    I too thought it was a good stream with just about all the major issues covered, and I don't think Natalie steered away from the tough questions and tough choices. There could have been more focus on bugs and issues, and maybe one change they could make from September onwards is to split the thing into four sections:
    Bugs, fixes and issues
    Additions, DLC and upcoming
    Previous announcements we've not quite managed yet (or haven't been released)
    Any Other Business (or stream questions)

    I would also suggest an additional forum topic in announcements for "things which Adam's team has finished but are stuck in QA, beta testing or for whatever other reason has yet to be released yet, even though they've said on stream 'it's done'"

    I thought that the explanation of the PIS on ECW was very good, but it does beg the question why they've been saying for the last six months it was completed, and only now saying that a major station (for that route) is missing off PIS and causing issues
     
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  40. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    Already asked
    From Skyhook Dave
    No problem, happy for you to ask. The 187 is still in development, due out later this year all being well. We will share more when I am able
     
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  41. DB628

    DB628 Well-Known Member

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    How about a proof ?
     
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  42. li150special

    li150special Active Member

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    Fully understood and also for me it is part of the attractivity (I know the Köln Aachen and Rhein Ruhr routes from personal experience and the scenery is spot on). Maybe it's just wishful thinking that there could be one tried and tested physical model that would cover trains from 1 to 3,000 tonnes and different braking systems, etc., where you just had to insert the relevant data.
     
  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The closest I can think of would be the class 47/56/57/69 where the 45 was canibalised to make the others, but even then there are distinct differences between the classes which would make a certain amount of rebuilding necessary
    With regards to routes, obviously an oak tree is an oak tree no matter where it is, but a hill in the greenery of south wales is going to be different to that in the South of France (more yellow) and again in the south of Spain (where everything's a terracotta red), so autobuild would still be quite limited unless you can put in there "make a more rocky route with this colour pallette"

    And again, stations are just about always going to be unique builds, even the small ones.
     
  44. CowBoyWolf

    CowBoyWolf Well-Known Member

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    upload_2021-6-16_15-13-22.png
     
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  45. GothicMatt

    GothicMatt Active Member

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    You got what i meant though
     
  46. MYG92

    MYG92 Well-Known Member

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    It wasn’t destined to you but someone asked which one was free and as soon as I replied he deleted his message so I looked dumbed by replying like that without context
     
  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    That's how TS Classic works, which is why it's so (relatively) easy to do new trains in TS. But TSW's physics models use Simugraph, which is as different for each train as the RL trains are from one another.
     
  48. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I doubt it's that easy in TS either. There are a great many locos missing in TSC and if it was "really easy to do" then people would have churned them out. Can't imagine ATS or DPS, let alone JT, not putting out relevant units if it was a simple thing to do
     
  49. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I did say "relatively"- not that it's easy, but relative to TSW not nearly as difficult. Note how many locos come standard with most TS routes, at least DTG's, for basically the same market price. In TSW the standard has fallen from 3 to 2 to 1, basically because a new loco eats up so many man-hours that the profit margin at a $30 price point gets really thin.
     
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  50. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    ARuscoe while I agree: Development for TS is not easy. Not at all. But TSW takes it to another level of complexity :D
     

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