Route Mergers In 2022 Lets Build A Network….

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by chieflongshin, Jan 3, 2022.

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  1. Yes

    279 vote(s)
    86.9%
  2. No

    25 vote(s)
    7.8%
  3. On the fence

    17 vote(s)
    5.3%
  1. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I was just procrastinating on the “if it’s not in the roadmap , it’s not being looked at statement “ vs the appearance of a new route not yet on there.

    It made me wonder the situation with mergers. Matts confirmed they’re not being looked at currently but I do have a question.

    Would you like to see route and time table merges in 2022?

    Welcome your thoughts.
     
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  2. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Active Member

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    TSW3 should launch with the Rhine network connecting SKA, HRR, RRO, and RSN with a new Koln-Düsseldorf-Essen high speed link. Can we can we?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
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  3. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    This should definetly become a part of tsw, either in 2022 or in the future. There was a lot discused in the thread if tsw is a simulator, and the fact many people can have fun with tsw in a different way around the driving and simulating aspect, i think why not also start with network based gameplay.

    This doesnt mean at all, that people like the way it is now should be forced into buying network dlcs. In fact, a network only would have a benefit if the single sections of it also are separate available. Well i understand that for released content the chance is rather low we get ever a merge.

    When DTG would building the route with its services parallel to the extension as a 2-part dlc from begin, the entire project becomes another angle. As an example the harlem line. sure there are many players enjoying an hour of driving and thats it, but there are also many players want to make an express to southeast.

    There is different kind of network gameplay possible:

    - Route extensions by doing certain branch lines
    - Route extensions by creating entire Route sections in addition (as in the example above with the harlem line in production)
    - Route networks like merging full routes with its services (london commuter with eastcoast way) for example
    - Networks by adding 2 routes not connected, but loaded in 1 map (as quick example creating the way into the bakerloo waterloo station on the gwr map, which isnt adding a benefit in simulator driving, but in gameplay. 2 Independend routes accessable in 1 map)
    --> TSW offers a Lot around the driving, you can ride as passenger, search collectables, hunt trophies, its not coming from nowhere virtual open World is very popular. If somebody isnt into it, No problem just have the routes in form of the current dlcs.

    It really doesnt mean DTG has to consider every route worked on getting an extension or merging. I would suggest they should make a trial in any form.

    Well the other aspect which for me is important, which is happening basicly with the preservation crew: A.I Timetables from L2B get ported to Eastcoastway and Locos / MUs getting updated. Thats something i like. So even without the "merge" we have kind of connected routes. obviously when they dont match the time periode its useless to compare them.
     
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  4. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    It depends what the route is.

    If it's, say, East Coastway and Brighton Mainline - there isn't any point without the line that heads north at Lewes. Bar services to Lover's Walk there isn't really much interlinking between the routes at Brighton, except the fact they meet at Brighton.

    However, if it were, for example, West Coast Mainline South (To MK or whatever) and the Bakerloo Line, I'd see a purpose, especially if the hypothetical WCMLS has the Overground represented, because then you could drive a full BKL service, change at Harrow or wherever your service happens to end, and head in to Euston or Watford, and pick up an Overground/AWC/LNWR service.

    Basically, if two routes meet at one station, I don't see much point as things stand. However, if they run alongside each other (or if it's A-B & B-C), then it's worth looking into merging the route.

    Also, as said in the reply above by meridian, the option would remain to buy them seperately, and then something clicks and says "You have both routes, here, have a merge."
     
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  5. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Active Member

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    It would not make any sense to continue supporting, or even selling, the legacy DLCs after a merger.
     
  6. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Sure it does. We talk about 2 or more routes each as payware dlc availabe, unknown the price aspect of the merging it self.

    If somebody likes just either london to brighton or east coastway, they still have to be purchaisable separate.

    So one way would be autoconnect them as soon the library has both or all needed dlcs, the other way would be as payware "network dlc", which covers the devs work for to connect them and make the services playable.

    I prefere number 2, this way a player can still own 2 routes without connecting them, and people like a connected world, buy this "network dlc", so devs get paid for the amount of work connecting them.
     
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  7. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    I perhaps look at it very simplistically. For the kids that loved transformers, there was some that could be played with independently but you could interlock them together (without having to put them back into the box (menu screen)) to create a bigger equally working toy.

    I think if DTG said over the course of two years we’ll aim to create this network or significant part of and then create each dlc in interlocking parts that would be awesome. As a consumer I buy the bits I want and the game tiles them in as per normal as I play. This would naturally only work sequentially. On an A,B,C route buying all three they lock together, buying A and C, they’re independent.
    I guess the challenge here would be the console memory issues? This might give Joethefish another timetable headache mind you :D
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
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  8. Ravi

    Ravi Well-Known Member

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    If they do a Diesel Legends of GWE pack but for a merged route.

    [​IMG]
     
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  9. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely needed because it can create longer routes examples are the BML ECW merger at Wivelsfield & Brighton followed by the former Deutsche Bundesbahn RRO RSN via Hagen Gbf the yard north of Hagen Hbf. Former East Germany Deutsche Reichsbahn DDR Tharandter Rampe with Riesa-Dresden at Dresden Hbf. I also planned a new route Bochum-Dortmund/Hagen to merge RRO RSN & HRR via Bochum Langendreer & Hagen Vorhalle
     
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  10. RobSkip

    RobSkip Well-Known Member

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    A merge would only work if the routes were in the same era, which instantly rules out RRO+RSN and DRA/DCZ, the actual use of the merge also needs to be considered, merging BML+ECW for instance is a bit pointless as there's no through services via Brighton.
     
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  11. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Run 8 sell each section of Southern California as separate DLCs but where they abut merge seamlessly into one continuous driveable route. The problem is going to be compiling the timetable as you will need custom ones for each route and several potential permutations of merger.
     
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  12. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Route merging (in the sense of two routes snapping together if you own both) would be beneficial now only if:
    -There are services that traverse over both routes, so to provide more use rather than saving the effort of switching routes in the menu.
    -The gameplay feels distinct between either route, not simply an extension of a previous service with nothing else new to offer.

    However the idea of merging would likely be an attractive prospect to most players, despite what is said above, so it should be seriously considered. Personally I rather see work towards route merging more than additional features for the livery designer.

    Remember that TSW is still fairly new and we don't really have a lot of content yet, so perhaps best to wait a few years until we get more routes that have the potential to merge, in the meantime continuing to offer content in new areas with different train types and gameplay.
     
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  13. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Why would that be the case? There are many people who would happy with simply longer services, even if it offers nothing "new", just a longer duration and more stations.
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You would need each component of a network system to run the services over that network, so for example if DTG did make the Lewes North curve as a bridge extension then only those who have ECW and BML would be able to play those networked timetables

    I would foresee the DLC timetable being as is, but there would also be a "network timetable" which would cover the whole system. Technically this is feasible if they program the whole route in the timetable and dynamically load in portal points when the service is being generated so stations off the network route are then discounted. It would also mean that they could dynamically dismiss from memory any services NOT encountered on the chosen run. It may mean a few seconds gap between you choosing to start your service and the service starting, but then that could all happen in the background whilst you're setting up your train

    The one thing that isn't addressed here is what happens to "attained trophies and achievements", but I say that these should be limited to incremental achievements (miles driven, services completed etc in a single consist) and scenarios, which are distinct from timetable runs anyway (and yes, you could have network scenarios, but again these would be reliant on having all relevant DLC to complete the network)
     
  15. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I still don't see the gameplay point in merging RRO and RSN. No service using both routes (btw same case from Dresden-Riesa and Dresden-Chemnitz). Also adding HRR would mean we need Bochum-Hagen, a route which is basically very simular to HRR and RRO except for the long bridge at Wetter. So how would that look like? You buy Bochum-Hagen, and if you own HRR and RRO you will get a route from Duisburg to Finnentrop? Would that mean that these three routes become one or would we still have all three standalone + a copy of these three as in one route? If it's the copy version, i see a problem with the space it needs for some people. You basically have RSN and HRR double on you SSD/HDD, which is just not.. efficient.

    And would you think that the memory of old gen console could survive this? Never ever. I think HRR with all the layers alone is more than enough for a console. I don't think it can handle three times the amount of memory use. And merging for PC and last gen only is also not fair, as old gen console users pay the very same as we do. In fact Xbox has less sales, so in general i would say xbox users pay most (if you can follow my bad math skills).

    What services can be done? Okay some freight trains could go from Duisburg to Finnentrop. IC trains go from Duisburg to Hagen. Fine. But if you buy Bochum-Hagen only, what locos would that route standalone include? There isn't that much variety. In reality the services are mostly done by Stadler FLIRT trains, which we don't have. So either they build a FLIRT 3 for the route or - and that would be the more economic approach - we get Dostos + BR 146. Because I think the workload of building the route + a merge system + a dedicated Bochum-Hagen timetable + a merge timetable for all three routes is insanly high.

    So all in all, i personally do not see any kind of benefit with this. But of course that's my personal opinion.
     
  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You have to remember that the maps are TILES, so as long as the joining stations are the same tile then the remainder is individual
    As an example use Brighton in BML and ECW
    The "Brighton tile" would be the same (as would all tiles around it for one tile so nine in total), this would mean if you drove in from BML or ECW you would see the same scenery and assets
    Outside of this would depend on the route you drove in on, so ECW would contain anything outside London Road etc, and BML anything north of the depot
    So the "duplication" would be nine tiles in total

    Multiply this by the number of overlapping DLC
    Let's take Birmingham New Street as an example
    I can see EIGHT general routes out of the station so that would be 8 x 9 or 72 tiles duplicated over those 8 routes. 72 tiles isn't all that much (I would imagine BML is over 100 tiles in itself)

    for sake of argument the 8 routes are :
    1. WCML North to Wolverhampton
    2. WCML South to Birmingham In. Airport
    3. South West line to Bromsgrove / Redditch
    4. South East to Leamington Spa via Acocks Green
    5. North to Rugeley Trent Valley
    6. North to Lichfield Trent Valley
    7. North East to Tamworth and Derby
    8. North East to Nuneaton and Leicester
     
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  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I don't think development should be held back due to eight year old tech. If people don't like what their console are doing, replace the console. Blunt, but basic reality

    They should program the timetable to be as close to what happens IRL as possible, and if any service goes through or past a station then the merge should allow for this.
    As an example York station in the UK is a major junction with five major routes coming from it. It also has a bypass line, so if someone had "York South ECML" and "York North ECML" they could also have the York bypass lines, and this could accommodate the freight and Lumo services which bypass York in that fashion. Those without the network of DLC would only have one or the other (so those services would portal out rather than continuing north / south)
     
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  18. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    You say that like getting gen-9 consoles isn't an absolute mission...
     
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  19. facundo.dim

    facundo.dim Member

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    The player's average PC won't be able to run the game with 2 merged routes. Consoles will be another problem, there has already some issues with the latest DLC's. I don't see merges as an "official" product, there could be mods but we all know DTG can't share some Unreal Engine tools (Epic owns it).

    For hardcore players sure, but not for the casual. The biggest player base always win when devolopers have to take decisions.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
  20. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Never understood this "it's not fair" argument. If I have a decade old PC and decide to buy a new game, my PC will not be able to run the game, even if I've paid the same ammount for it as everyone else.

    If route merges would be sold as separate DLCs, then simply don't sell it to old gens that wouldn't be able to handle it. It's that easy.
     
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  21. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Don't get me wrong, I totally agree! But iirc Matt once mentioned on a stream that the old gen console community is faaar bigger than new gen console. So leaving old gen out of newer development might be great for us PC people, but ultimately it's bad for DTG's financial status and thus bad for all of us, because they then have to go back to shorter routes, no new locos at all, higher prices etc.
    And of course as trainsimplayer pointed out, there hardly is a way to buy new gen consoles due to the pandemic-related production shortages and people who buy endlessly much hardware for their coin minings. So there is no way we will overcome this technical "burden" any time soon.
     
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    No I don't, but the problem then becomes why should PS5, Xbox and PC users have inferior product because Sony decided to sell their consoles to Bitcoin miners instead of consumers... It's nobody else's problem how Sony distribute their consoles so even if it's a pain in the neck (insert other body part here), it still shouldn't stop people striving for the best
    And of course, optimisation is key

    I don't get the argument. In addition to above as soon as the current bottleneck opens up and Sony starts actually producing PS5s for commercial sale rather than miners people who buy PS5 will start complaining that they don't have layers, full routes, substitution etc (based on DTG basing their product on what a PS4 can do)
    And if DTG get their optimisation right it may matter less anyway

    And added to all the above, the issue on consoles is how many different loco / unit assets there are on a route, NOT the size of the map so the issue becomes how many "regions of different locos" are involved in a route or network rather than the absolute length of it. A 100 mile section in west wales would only have four locos, whereas a 100 mile section through Birmingham might have upwards of twenty...
    Given we have 3 or 4 on GWE and that runs on console it must mean consoles could have the former, and DTG have to work towards how to get the latter working SOMEHOW, even if through console specific substitution to dumb down the memory requirements
     
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  23. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Surely if it's moving a similar amount of data in and out of use to now there shouldn't be an issue in map size?
    Is it not the layers mucking things up? In which case as above. Older tech get what works, when In a position to revive on new tech there is more to utilise
     
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  24. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    It would be better for variety if we had more new areas with different trains than longer services with existing trains that often have similar gameplay and scenery. I'm not saying we shouldn't see longer services, just now is not the right time.
     
  25. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, so the issue (for the devs) is how to address those map tiles on the fly, dynamically, when someone is driving a service, especially when addressing different DLC

    Even this can be done through specific and dynamic substitution, but obviously there's diminishing returns here. Which part of the line has which asset set and when, and can this be done dynamically. As in if you don't need the class 43 until later, can it only be loaded later?
     
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  26. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    Well I agree with that more variety is badly needed. I just found it weird that you said simply making longer services wouldn't be worth it. Both are equally important. And mergint routes might be a pretty cost effective way to give players longer services, without having to create new routes.
     
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  27. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Speaking for the UK specifically, longer routes would inherently mean more variety
    As an example, on GWE if you go past Reading (especially past Swindon) then you get much more variety of assets including Sprinters, 158s, 221s, 43s (800s do the London end in replacement of the 43s on the route as it stands)

    Not saying we would have all those assets immediately, but it means you get to build up your asset list and also get to do full or near full runs with all those assets almost immediately
     
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  28. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    It kind of is everyone else's problem how PS5/Xbox Series is so lowly supplied - and the main reason isn't how Sony/MS Sell them, it's that global microchip shortage, by the way - when the supply is so low, that hardly anyone can get them, there's a problem for everyone.

    I'm fortunate enough to have an Xbox Series X now, being on Xbox One S until the 25th, and I know how hard it is to get the damn things. People might strive for the best tech, however until they become widely available (Something the microchip producers think may take until Late 2022 at best, others say 2023, 2024 before the shortage ends) Gen 8 consoles have to remain supported.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2022
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  29. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    Newer routes are getting longer, I'm just not so keen on having something like a 40 mile branch for London Commuter just because it can be merged to make a 2 hour service, but rather have a segment of the ECML with it being an 80 mile route by default with new trains and different scenery/gameplay.
     
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  30. Cael

    Cael Well-Known Member

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    Definitely, but I don't think this is going to be added in 2022. Maybe some way down the line.

    Ignoring possible performance issues, the main reason is the service mode - right now, they would need to create three separate timetables for joining routes - for route A, route B and route A+B. With multiple routes, the problem only exacerbates as you would need a triangular number of timetables (1, 3, 6, 10, 15, 21... timetables) for different route combinations.

    Developers would need to create a flexible enough system that allows the different timetables to "snap" together, making them modular. With the current model of services, allowing you to choose if you want to take only part of the journey (existing Duisburg - Bochum for example), or the entire Köln - Duisburg - Dortmund for example by simply choosing the first service and then clicking "continue" at every snapping point.

    Keep in mind that multiple routes in the same area could be potentially seen as too similar to existing DLCs.
     
  31. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    The problem is you're saying that "What I have should mean that everyone else can only have the same"
    And it should never be that way. Developers SHOULD program the best optimised version for the newest tech and then work backwards, but I would never say that what worked on my iphone 3 should be the same experience as an iphone 13

    OK, so what if they made the route from Gatwick to Reading as a networked DLC to BML
    You'd start at Reading (with the GWE timetable running) then branch off to Guildford (so at some point a SWR addon would boost this out) and then onto Redhill to join up with the BML, so you essentially have a network of three routes, which as they add onto them you get more and more variety

    Of course they could build BML, then an NTP route, then a scottish route, then Devon, then south wales...
    Problem with that is none of those routes ever evolve or get more content.
    That's fine as a proposition as well, and I'm all for variety throughout, just asking if that's what you mean
     
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  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    For me this is fairly easily achievable depending on how they've built and named their stations and junctions...

    Take a british route, each station already has a three letter designation, and each junction does too so if you made sure when writing your timetable that you work on that basis in essence you give EVERY instruction for a train from end to end, and the software would only have to work out the portal points for the DLC in question (ie what's the last station on the map being used, and therefore port out at the next portal)
    OK that's actually a bit complex than "easily achievable" but certainly doable
     
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  33. Thelonius16

    Thelonius16 Well-Known Member

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    That just makes the logistics easier because individual services don't have to run from one DLC to the other. The whole point is to improve immersion in timetable mode by allowing a player to walk between DLCs and adding appropriate additional traffic.
     
  34. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Active Member

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    ahh but we could build some Norway routes if we had the flirt trains..
     
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  35. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    It's not "What I have", it's what the majority have, if you read my post again, you'll notice that just because i'm sticking up for Gen8 users doesn't mean I am one... And the PC/Gen9 Versions are already superior to Gen 8, graphically, performance-wise (On most PCs), layers on BML and such, larger timetables on some routes -it's not like everyone is stuck on the Gen8 build...
     
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  36. AirbourneAlex

    AirbourneAlex Well-Known Member

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    That would be a better example, because the route would offer something different e.g. diesel running in 3rd rail territory with a Class 769. The line from Eastbourne to Ashford (i.e. Marshlink Line/East Coastway extension) with a Class 171 would be a good choice also, which would allow for extending ECW services whilst also adding new content/services.
     
  37. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Going into new countries is not just all about the trains. More challeging for the Dev team is to understand signalling, then script it into TSW, build the signal assets, make sure there are enough Beta testers who also know and understand the signalling, building many completely new assets etc. etc. Having the right train model might be a good basis, but it's far more needed than just that.
     
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  38. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    Now whilst I'm entirely realistic this is a minimal cross section of total use base, it seems fairly unanimous and therefore hope it does come on the roadmap sooner rather than later.

    upload_2022-1-4_16-24-17.png
     
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  39. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No passenger services, yes. But freight does make that run.
     
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  40. chieflongshin

    chieflongshin Well-Known Member

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    For me it’s about feeling like I’ve been on a journey. Brighton and Sherman, there’s something about both of them where I feel like I’ve been on a decent run. I’ve mentioned elsewhere when you do a 14mile service, it’s like popping to the shops
     
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  41. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    It's also about the actual destination, not just the length. For example, Isle of Wight is pretty short, but it actualy starts and ends where it does in real life, at two terminals. So you can really feel like you've done a real railway service. Same with Arosalinie.

    Or take LIRR, for example. The main branch run is the longest, but doesn't feel as satisfying, as you're stopped half way at Hicksville. But runs on the branc lines feel much better, as on those you can actually go from terminus to terminus, therefore actually driving the full service, even if it's shorter.

    Now routes like Sherman Hill don't have this, as the trains you are driving are much longer distance, you're just taking over between Laramie and Cheyenne, but due to the length of the route, and both ending points being big yards, it feels okay.
     
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  42. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with your point here. "Different" only works the first time... Then you've done it so there's no further difference.
    I don't want difference, but I do want variety and the ability to (eventually) run full runs within reason using prototypical trains
    An 11 minute run from Gatwick to Redhill is hardly satisfying but I still applaud it's inclusion for example, but I would still want "a railway network" in game rather than a series of disparate routes which never develop outside of their bounds
     
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  43. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Fair point, but the question for me is what will the majority have in say two years. If you develop for only now then you're building in issues for the future and leads into the rest of the point I made. At some point the PS5 will be available to everyone bar miners and this whole conversation goes away
     
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  44. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    In my "dream the impossible dream world", I'd love to see the return of NEC:New York connected to LIRR (via Penn Staton/Sunnyside yard), and MNRR Harlem line via a new MTA Subway DLC.

    Then extend NEC south to Trenton as part of an NJ Transit DLC, and north to New Haven (its end point in the TS20XX version).

    Oh and updated timetable so it's actually busy.

    Too much to ask?
     
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  45. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Yes, technology marches on- eventually. GTA 3 etc were made for PS2/XBox, then later ported to PS3/360. GTA IV was made for PS3/360, but not Ps2/XBox. Read Dead 2 was made for PS4/XBox1, but not seventh-gen.

    But TSW is a rather different model, as a core game + DLC. Will eventually we see DLC that's next-gen only, while the core sits on both sides of the fence? As much as Matt has said they want to support 8th-gen, it can't go on forever. I haven't played many DOS games lately.
     
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  46. Jon from Rhode Island

    Jon from Rhode Island Active Member

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    How about north to Providence so you can fold in the Boston DLC. The section between New Haven and Westerly RI is one of the most scenic in the entire northeast corridor.
     
  47. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    BML + ECW merger can be fixed if you make the Wivelsfield Lewes connector. RRO RSN HRR merger does require Hagen Vorhalle and Witten Hbf which I have a suggestion on.
     
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  48. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Supporting old gen in a possible way for having them an experience is one thing, holding back tech and content for pc and newest consoles to achieve the goal "everybody gets the same experience", thats another thing. Its just fact on a ps4, that the hardware is not capable of handling what a ps5 does.

    So not introducing route merging because the oldest platform cant handle it would be "short sighted" for the future development of tsw.

    My guess is, last gen has to live with way less services on a merged route, or other cuts on substitution & a.i traffic like in london commuter.
     
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  49. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, and thats the reason the routes should not merge with autoconnect when somebody owns all or multiple single route dlcs

    The actual connecting part should happen with a payware dlc, covers the additional work of devs. Wivelsfield junction is the best example. Same with services run on both routes.
    This way a customer can choose to connect the routes, in case hardware cant handle it or he just isnt into merging.

    Probably the financial aspect is also a reason dtg hasnt done it yet. Just having purchaised both routes in the library and autoconnect them creats a financial gap, where is only effort without any benefit for a dev.
     
  50. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly and the question is this if ECW + BML are merged via Wivelsfield should DTG make a bundle or not? If the network bundle was chosen perhaps DTG should sell them the same price as a normal route. This also takes into account the console hardware 9th gen uses PC timetable after Rush Hour update while 8th gen console can't handle a busy merged timetable
     
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