Route Merging.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by IsambardKingdomBrunel, Mar 13, 2021.

  1. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Member

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    It is about time DTG made an official tutorial written\video about merging routes.
    It is obviously do-able as both Danny and Thomson do it.
    But they fail to share the knowledge, as if it is some state secret.
    I have my own Neyland\Milford Haven - Swansea route.
    Which i would love to merge with Swansea - Bristol or even Danny's Swansea - Bristol - Shrewsbury.
    Share the knowledge please, it can only be good for continued sales of TS20xx
     
  2. Aryffordd

    Aryffordd Active Member

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    There’s a Milford Haven to Swansea route out there? Is it publically available?
     
  3. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    There was SWW 5.5 (South West Wales) which has since disappeared into the ether. original link (obviously no longer working) http://www.oakwood-shed.co.uk/sww5/sww_route5.html

    The biggest problem with that route other than it was massively unfinished was that it wasn't built on the correct map coordinates which would make merging at Swansea if not impossible then certainly a heap more difficult.

    If Isambard above has a different self made route then my interest is certainly peaked and I echo Aryffordd's post, is it available?
     
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  4. tommydee

    tommydee Well-Known Member

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    Presumably your route is pre-Beeching if it goes to Neyland?
     
  5. DPSimulation

    DPSimulation Member

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    They don't share it because it's not a simple process. If they did share it then people will try it, more often than not breaking stuff which results in a load of support requests. Knowledge is a dangerous thing.

    The routes that Danny and Thomson have merged are done because the routes have a common point of origin that was created when the routes were started. Is your route scratch built or a clone/modification of an existing route? If it's the latter then their process may work. If it's the former then it becomes much more difficult but it can (apparently with great difficulty and a lot of patience!) be done, you'll just have to ask the people who have done it, people like Pete over at Alan Thomson Sim.

    There was also this tool a while ago, i've never tried it but am aware of some people that had limited success with it. RSSLO also made a recent announcement on Facebook that someone working with them had also made a new program to merge routes, i've no idea whether they are releasing it.
     
  6. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I believe there is another route merge on ATS which is the whole ECML - LKX to EDB?
    4 routes from three builders - did that work?
     
  7. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I asked a question over on UKTS forums a while ago regarding merging routes with unmatched coords, it is do-able but it is very technical, in fact the guy (Neil, user name cunningn) said that he has created such a tool and that I'm welcome to download it but he will not babysit me and I'm on my own at my own risk, sounds a bit harsh said like that but I totally understood his point, fair to say I chickened out of trying as my route building knowledge is still well in its infancy.

    If you are a member of UKTS then you can check out this forum thread on the subject, maybe you're better prepared to give it a try. https://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=365&t=152733
     
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  8. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    Yes, there is, it's a merger of JT ECML North, DPSim's ECML North East, DT's(?) York - Peterborough and DTG's London - Peterborough. They were going to use it on March Madness last year for the Class 89 announcement (when I accidently make the sky a bright purple *facepalm*) but couldn't for whatever reason (can't remember why) so had to use the seperate routes.

    upload_2021-3-13_18-24-38.png
    Completely unrelated but this still haunts me :D (I made the weather blueprint and the brief was to have a slight purple twinge to the sky, bit like a purpley sunset. I learnt a valuable lesson that day - it was never rely solely on external testers).
     
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  9. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Don't worry, it'll never be the cringiest thing on a DTG stream, the hosts always have that down to a fine art by themselves.
     
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  10. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Wouldn't route merging be more than it's worth in terms of computer performance hit? Never tried one.
     
  11. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I'm not aware of any noticeable difference in performance with the SWC+WM merge than that of the routes run separately, not tried any of DANNYS other merges or the ones found elsewhere though.
     
  12. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    This is a merge I'm (fingers crossed) looking forward to (that and the hope of a West of Swansea merge of course).

    Image4.jpg

    +

    Image2.jpg
     
  13. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Be warned though, you're tinkering with the very fabric of space-time itself. One wrong move and a black hole could open up!
     
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  14. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    That image is illegible. I presume from the other that Cotswald merging with Shrewsbury is what you had in mind. Bit of a roundabout way to get from A to B.
     
  15. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Yeah well, it was a screen grab from Steam, it wasn't meant to be legible but for those that know it it'd be instantly recognisable, the first image as that of Danny's SWC & WM merge, the second Image is from BMG and it's an obvious merge because BMG will undoubtedly use their WM route at Hereford as the starting point for the Cotswold line.

    I have a personal interest in both routes, and I would be very surprised if there weren't real life timetables using both lines (I'm not a timetable studier so really wouldn't know), it's not about getting from Swansea to Oxford (I've got a JT route for that) it's about Swansea to Hereford and then Hereford to Worcester for me..

    Here's a better image taken from Danny's FB.. (you'll have to click on the thumbnail though)

    Image3.jpg
     
  16. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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  17. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I knew what it was. I recognized the Cotswold Line having seen that news before and figured out you were talking about merging it with the Swansea-Shrewsbury merge (Danny would be busy making two copies of this if he feels compelled to do it, and if it's on Steam). But those who might not will appreciate the new image.
     
  18. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Member

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    It's not a state secret - I've tried to explain how to various people (but it usually ends up with it not working, and in some cases, it's worked, and the rare extreme I've gotten abuse from it - that's the main reason, and of course the lack of free time, covid and the last year for me has been not great to be honest)
     
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  19. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    If it's not a state secret, why do people vanish never to be seen again after attempts to educate them?

    Wait, they lost interest and moved on to GTA 5? Fair point...
     
  20. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Member

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    Damn it my secret plan foiled again ;) (adds Cyclone to secret hit list ;) ) - Seriously though, I guess some people think "oh it's easy", i can do it, but then get frustrated when it crashes a few times for various reasons (I get those too - mostly because of my own mistakes - but it just gets frustrating trying to explain really - (and of course i haven't had the time too recently)
     
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  21. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    atomicdanny I seem to think people were told that only routes with the same "datum point", (is that the right word?), could be merged but now we see the RSC Ecml-S merged with the Creative Rail ECML Pbo-Yrk then merged with the RSC York - Ncle and finally merged with the JT Ncl - Edinburgh to make the mega route.
    Did something change to make the merges possible?
     
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  22. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Member

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    I only said that it wasn't possible to stop people asking me, It's always been possible, just without some type of automatic tool (to mass rename things and repoint things, it would take a very long time (unfortunately I don't have a tool to merge a route that doesn't share the same point of origin - i don't think anyone wants to tell me that one either :) ).

    The downside to the non point of origin merging is that routes would be offset - so even with merging say London Waterloo to South London Network - London Waterloo would be offset by upto 700m (or more). (I've tried with Stratford on it's own from GEML onto MML - and it was 800m out :) )
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
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  23. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    I read there is a chap on UKTS who created a route merge tool and he said people could have it but he refuses to give any help if it does not work as people expect.

    Also RSSLO have created a similar tool but they are keeping it to themselves for the moment
     
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  24. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Last edited: Mar 20, 2021
  25. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    The problem with that software is the "E 'essential sections to be joined have the same latitude and longitude" paragraph
     
  26. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Danny, have a look at the posts by cunningn on the UKTS link I posted in this thread > Route Merging.
     
  27. atomicdanny

    atomicdanny Member

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    Thank you for that, although unfortunately I can't post or send messages on UKtrainsim any more, so can't really contact him
     
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  28. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    My apologies, I had forgotten your post already about what I had talked about
     
  29. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    No worries, I'm in the process of sorting it out for Danny I'm just waiting for a reply to my PM from Neil (cunningn)
     
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  30. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    So if I am understanding this correctly, if two routes have the same origin coordinates in the RouteProperties.xml file they can in theory be merged?
     
  31. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    It can be but also not really, it depends on a few factors, first being that they are created in their real world counterpart coordinates, (easy test run a route alongside the ThirdRails map app, if you're driving the Penzance route and ThirdRails has you trekking across the Outer Hebrides then...)
    Secondly we have DEM data, if this is waaaay off (or made up) then you may need a train escalator to get from one section to the next, thirdly mapping, how true to life was the actual track (and all other track view items like roads and scenery) laid.

    If all things are reasonably aligned (reasonably is probably a relative matter dependant on how much time and effort the author of the merge is prepared to spend on it) then it's all about knowing what files need to be merged and edited, before you go anywhere near the editor and start joining things and tidying up..

    I will just add this is my very basic (lack of) understanding of the process, I haven't done it myself and I may even be hideously incorrect, just how I see/imagine it is all.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2021
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  32. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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    I am a member on UKTS, I will have a look at this guys utility, I already can join things up that have the same origin, but not if they have different origins. It would be useful for me to correct an old route of mine, which I have salvaged back into a decent form again. (Its one of my own ones, Not DTG's or anyone else's), And if I can join it all up, then we can upload the route, for people to enjoy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  33. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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    I cant send messages either, despite being a member for YEARS. I have actually lurked around forums, and groups since the Beginning of Railworks.
    And after some person(s) was nasty with me... I just went silent on forums and groups. Which was probably a mistake on my part. Because I think some people might be a bit annoyed with me now, if they knew what I am sitting on here. (A route and some trains, Australian ones)
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2021
  34. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Are you the person I was just chatting with the other day, in the Discord server?
     
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  35. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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    I don't think so. I do have discord, but I have not been on it for weeks! What server was it, And what were they talking about?
     
  36. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Oh, I might be thinking of the guy behind the NZ route. Protip: Australia and New Zealand are not the same place.
     
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  37. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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    No they are certainly not the same.
    But just as unfriendly.
    Those NZ guys couldn't even be bothered talking to me, when I went on discord tonight. So I just logged off. I guess I will just hang on to that NZ Aukland EMU Model that I made a while back, when they were just barely on the rails.
     
  38. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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    Good luck with that. My posts on the forum, are just left there "waiting for approval", And I cant private message anyone either. If they keep that up, they wont be getting anymore subscription money from me, like they have since 2005 or 6?
     
  39. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    OK, I think I've identified you. Will DM you.
     
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  40. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Thanks, but no luck needed, my pm sending and receiving work fine, never paid a subscription either so I don't think it's related to your issue, have you tried speaking to easilyconfused here, he's a moderator on the ukts forum so may be able to help you?
     
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  41. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Cyclone can be seen quietly making notes in the corner here given he had two interrupted large downloads yesterday that had to start over, including another seven hours or so right now instead of his four hour overnite job for the same file.
     
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  42. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Obviously not from UKTS
     
  43. Easilyconfused

    Easilyconfused Well-Known Member

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    UKTS forum access is not related to the main site in any way. Your premium pays for the download capacity. the forums are free to all users.

    If you are the user I think then the forum software tells me you first entered the forums on 19th February 2014 and made no posts at all until today when you made 3 posts overnight about route merging whilst I was sleeping. Those 3 were approved whilst I was having breakfast and 1 subsequent post since then. Nothing is outstanding.

    All new users go through post approval until it is clear they understand the rules of the forum. That usually takes a dozen or so posts but has been known to be as many as 200 if people keep getting into arguments. I would say you should be released onto regular posting early next week if you keep on posting. 4 posts in a day is not really enough to gauge the situation and I have been burnt before by users who start calm and reasonable suddenly picking fights with people. I am sure you wouldn't do that
     
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  44. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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    It must have been a temporary glitch. I noticed it was resolved this morning. Yeah, the Forum is separate from the subscription.
     
  45. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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    Yes, that user sounds like me. I wish they would do this on other places. But I swear, that I have made posts on there before, back in 2016 about my Australian stuff, and the NZ EMU Model etc, It just seemed to mysteriously vanish.

    And No. I don't go picking stupid fights, with strangers, anywhere on or offline. But I cant say the same for the other way around. (People picking fights with me, or being patronising for no good reason, suddenly out of the blue)

    I am just posting on there about the Route Merging and stuff at the moment. And a little something I have, that should be able to let you use Better DEM, in Train Simulator. By changing the DEM to the right format for TS20xx, Without screwing up the projection or the Geo-referencing in the DEM(s).

    Im just testing it all out, at the moment, and that it works properly, and what the best way is to do it. I did notice there was an Interest in this. (I am certainly Interested, Myself, Because there is 1 and 5 Meter DEM, for places I want to Model)
     
  46. Easilyconfused

    Easilyconfused Well-Known Member

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    Hopefully now it should let you receive /send private messages and post without approval.
     
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  47. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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    Good. Thanks for that.

    I am still baffled as to how my posts from 2016 went missing... strange. (and me, after that, thinking I was not welcome or something!)
     
  48. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    They might be in the older forum?
    https://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewforum.php?f=300
     
  49. ceejay#9369

    ceejay#9369 New Member

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  50. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Member

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    Danny no offence to you personally, the only route i can say i really enjoy.

    Is your Swansea - Bristol and Newport - Shrewsbury merge for obvious reasons.

    To be able to add on my Neyland - Swansea section, be it loosely pre-1964 based.

    Would be a dream route for me.

    Anyway, like back in the MSTS days. It would be nice if those who can, share info with those that might be able to. :D
     
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