Route Merging.

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by IsambardKingdomBrunel, Mar 13, 2021.

  1. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I ran the merged Welsh Marches and SWC route yesterday for the first time and it is indeed a wonderful creation. Especially turning the clock back to 1988 (ignoring the extra Platform at Newport)!

    So thank you Danny for your efforts in making it possible.

    Shame we haven't got a Chester to Shrewsbury section, it presumably would be possible to then add NWC which would create an awesome route.
     
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  2. PhÜnKî_Rø0sTā

    PhÜnKî_Rø0sTā Active Member

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    I wouldnt mind seeing the following:

    Fife circle + Edinburgh - Glasgow + GARL + Suburban Glasgow Northwest + West highland line South + West highland extension then a missing link to connect with the Kyle Line
     
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  3. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    What do people gain by Route Merging?
    Ok you can drive London KX via York to Edinburgh but how many people want to do a 5 hour scenario?
    Even train crews don't work over the distances talked about
    You might have a problem with GARL as it runs from Glasgow Central High Level
    Both Edinburgh - Glasgow + Suburban Glasgow Northwest use Glasgow Queen St station
     
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  4. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Certainly when JT's Perth to Inverness comes out, it would be nice to be merged with their SEMCL that goes from Edinburgh to Perth.
     
  5. SJA

    SJA Active Member

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    Agreed. It would be a bit too much for me, and if you have to save and come back the next day it's not really an operational simulation.

    I suppose it does offer the opportunities for realistic crew change points in some cases without loading another route, but on the KX-EDB example above I think the driver changes take place at NCL or YRK from info I looked up on the Rail UK forums just now. Similar for the WCML (when Missing Link is complete and it is merged) with Preston as a change point, I believe.
     
  6. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Not that you would have any trains that went that way between Inverness and Edinburgh
    Come down from Inverness to Perth and after station duties draw forward, run round or change ends, drive to Dundee, run round or change ends, drive to Edinburgh

    The route needs the 17.6 miles from Perth to Ladybank instead of the 40 miles from Perth to Ladybank via Dundee
    https://www.railmaponline.com/UKIEMap.php
     

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    Last edited: Apr 22, 2021
  7. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    What you get from route merges is choice. As per the JT Paddington - Penzance route. Nobody forces the end user to run the whole route. But the choice for extended operations is available if required.

    Cannot see the logic behind DTG's bit's and pieces of routes here and there. Unless they can be merged, it has to be good for sales surely.

    I would not touch Liverpool St - Ipswich with a barge pole. Unless it could be merged with not only the freeware extension to Norwich. But also the Wherry Lines.

    No interest in WCML South. But i would buy it if it had the merges to Glasgow.
     
  8. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think the Welsh Marches merger with South Wales gives the driver a more logical start/end point of Cardiff or Swansea, where as Newport wasn't so logical, a logical point to end the route I guess as that is where it ended, but not so logical for scenarios. The merger of WCML Over Shap and North also give a decent run without being excessive and Preston was a point where train crew were changed, I found this out from watching two of the old Railscene cab ride videos recently.

    Personally I wouldn't want to drive for more than a couple of hours but some will. I do like the thought of driving from Kings Cross to York in one sitting, but unfortunately for me, the merged routes are in their modern setting. I think it is a shame that Creative Rail (what has happened to them I wonder) didn't build to Kings Cross, although I understand why as it is quite a large undertaking.
     
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  9. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Try the ECML & Cambridge Lines freeware route. If you haven't already.

    Kings X - York and out to Ely. Set in the 50's, 60's and 70's. The route includes an era changing facility.
     
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  10. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I have looked at it and often thought of downloading it but I have read it is quite heavy on resources. It looks very good though, thanks.

    I am upgrading my computer over the next month or so, so might wait till then. My ailing hard drive has got very slow, it took nearly five minutes for me to be able to open a web browser this morning!
     
  11. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Ok buddy, just thought i would mention it. I haven't got a super computer, but the times i have had it installed.
    It runs well enough here. ;)
     
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  12. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Okay I will give it a try thanks and see what it is like.
     
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  13. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Next time before opening your web browser for the first time open Task Manager to see if something is happening in the background.
    My wife's computer was running slow but she had a lot of files taking up space and not being used

    A run of CCleaner sorted out some of the rubbish and a blast with the Air Duster sorted other cr@p and it runs better
     
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  14. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It probably is due a clean out. I have some canisters of compressed air for computers etc. I had forgot about CCCleaner, I will give it a try later. I have recently had a purge of files as it was getting full. I will try task manager and see what it brings up. Thanks.
     
  15. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    Couldn't remember off the top of my head if the SECML had that or not.
     
  16. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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  17. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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  18. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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  19. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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  20. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    I only installed what was downloaded from ukts. I'll take a look at rail-sim.de.

    Thanks for the advice.
     
  21. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    The one on UKTS and RailSim.de should be identical
    When you install it make sure you use "Run as Administrator"
     
  22. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    After some digging, my issue with RW Info crashing was down to the fact I had created a "God Mode" folder on my desktop. As soon as I deleted it, RW Info problem solved!
     
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2021
  23. inversnecky

    inversnecky Well-Known Member

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    What's that?!
     
  24. longo239

    longo239 Well-Known Member

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    Basically you create a new folder, rename it with a specific name and it brings all of the windows settings into one scrollable list rather than having to go through all the different menus.
     
  25. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    No takers on the merging info then. No surprise with DTG but community help might have been forth coming.
     
  26. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    There is a chap on UKTS who has said he could give people the info on route merging but he is not for answering questions.
    You would get something and have to work out yourself on how to do it.
     
  27. Aryffordd

    Aryffordd Guest

    I know this is going back a bit, and I know this is a bit of a newbie question, but... whats the best way to find out when crew changes happen and the working patterns are on these long routes, so that people (me!) can try and emulate more realistic patterns of driving? If it's not realistic for me to be driving from Swansea to Shrewsbury, or indeed attempting to learn that entire route, it'd be good to know what is.

    I know I could probably visit my favourite search engine of choice, but I'm hoping for qualitative rather than quantitative answers :)
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 10, 2021
  28. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Preston was one such place on the WCML in BR days, I don't know of any others, although I have a feeling York was too on the ECML.
     
  29. Cat

    Cat Well-Known Member

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    I believe Crewe and Carlisle were crew changing points on the WCML. But safe to say that major junctions and where there were Motive Power Depots MPDs were also crew change points.

    This site is a mine of useful historical railway information. Hours of it. :))

    https://davidheyscollection.myshopblocks.com/page8.htm
     
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  30. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    On the Manchester - Swansea service that runs via Shrewsbury and Hereford
    Manchester to Crewe - Crewe T/C
    Crewe to Cardiff - Crewe or Cardiff T/C with a 2h31 min run
    Cardiff to Swansea - Cardiff or Swansea T/C

    Although Cardiff T/C know the route to Swansea and Crewe it would be too long in the cab to work thru - 2h35 Cdf to Cre
    So a Swansea - Cardiff - Manchester service would have
    Swansea - Cardiff (change crew) Cardiff - Crewe (change crew) Crewe - Manchester

    HTH

    Peter
     
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  31. Aryffordd

    Aryffordd Guest

    Super interesting. Thank you, Peter, I really appreciate the post. Looks like I have a lot of route learning to do!
     
  32. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    From what I've heard, the Cardiff to Penzance run is also run by one driver. That's a five and a half hour drive accounting for a break at Exeter and a smaller break at Bristol, no break at Plymouth. Is this true?
     
  33. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    No it is not true.
    Unlike in the US & Canada where the crew just sit on a service until their hours are up we don't do that in Europe
    There are very few services that pass Plymouth that do not change train crew
    On a fast train from Penzance to Paddington the Driver will have over 2h20m on duty

    The train driver needs a PNB (Physical Needs Break) after 2 to 3 hours which is a minimum of 20 or 30 mins, depending on duty length, not including walking time from to the train to the mess room and back to the train.

    Peter
     
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  34. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Would you think Plymouth or maybe Exeter would be points where there was a change of crew?

    I notice in BR freight working timetables that there are crew change points marked by a C in between the arrival and departure times at a particular location.

    I haven't noticed the same on a passenger working timetable.
     
  35. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Plymouth and Exeter would be places where crew changes took place - again at Newton Abbot as there was a big shed.
    These days the train crew and station staff are not issued with WTTs and the information about crew changes was only correct at the time of printing.
     
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  36. steve.cunningham1980

    steve.cunningham1980 Member

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    Is two and a half hours the maximum allowed for a continuous driving stint?
     
  37. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Depends on the Train Operator and the type of route
     
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  38. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    I know the service I researched was a Cardiff to Penzance, and being the entire length on that stretch of WML, I was most curious about that. I know the stop at Plymouth is a quick one on that service, so it's not a clear crew change. The only really long stop is at Exeter, with a five minute break at Bristol. My guess is the crew change occurs at Exeter and the train goes from there to Penzance, but how quickly can a crew change take place during a stop?
     
  39. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I think a crew change can take as little as around two or three minutes which would often be the station dwell time at somewhere like Exeter or Plymouth, especially in more modern times. I think in the past with loco hauled trains the new crew would have been given details of the weight of the train, number of carriages by the guard and I assume any faults or incidents the driver had noted or reported. I am guessing that on a modern unit only the latter would happen. This is purely guess work, but it is something I have often wondered when authoring scenarios.
     
  40. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    In Train Planning, where i used to work for 14 years, the normal allowance was 2 minutes.
    The Plymouth stop on most services is 3 minutes
     
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  41. Cyclone

    Cyclone Well-Known Member

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    Looks like that fits then. Interesting.
     
  42. ntypeman

    ntypeman Active Member

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    Of no relavance TOC wise my best mate is a driver on Merseyrail... He tells me that their driving time is usually no longer than 5 hours. PNB is a minimum of 30 mins (some turns have 2 or 3 hour break!!!) and there must be a minimum of 12 hours between finishing a turn / duty and commencing the next turn / duty...

    Eric
     
  43. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Colas driver informed me that the crew change is at Shrewsbury for the Baglan to Chirk Cronospan logs run. (My favourite WS scenarios atm :cool:)
     
  44. ntypeman

    ntypeman Active Member

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    Whilst in the route merging thread, I don't know if it would be possible but having downloaded & installed Northern Lines by OTS, I'd love to see it merged with (I think - can't check as not in front of the laptop) North Cheshire & South Lancs...

    NL gives you Blackpool - Preston & NCSL gives you Preston - Lime Street and therefore, potentially the ability to run the famous Class 31 hauled "Club trains" that ran in the early to mid 90's in Regional Railways colours...

    Eric
     
  45. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah back on topic, all this rubbish about privatised TOCS, doesn't belong here.
    I am running WCML2 merged with WCMLN and Edinburgh Ext.
    Ballast overkill is rubbish though. 3 different colours and way to much of it.
    Does TS Tools do ballast swapping, in the same way as it enables track type swapping ?
     
  46. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    A route has a base texture and the track that also has the Ballast built in to it and you can swap either with TS Tools
    If you wish to change the ballast around the track you have to swap the track and ballast changes
    Find the track you like and swap the other sections to match

    There is a tutorial on the TS Tools website
     
  47. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    You misunderstood me sorry 749006. I mean the ballast texture that is sprayed about (painted) lineside.

    Not the ballast tthat is attached to the track model.

    No idea where this idea of having ballast 10ft each side of the trackbed, comes from.

    Look at any real world piccies of UK railways, past and present. The trackbed and the ballast underneath it is laid onto the terrain (grass).

    Anyway thank you for taking the time to help, buddy.
     
  48. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    The problem is what one person calls acceptable another does not.

    The track in the game has the inbuilt ballast that is a fixed amount away from the rails
    In real life on UK Railways the ballast goes further from the track
    IMG_3565.JPG

    On RSSLO routes it is the opposite where the ballast stops and it goes to grass so it looks like toy track on a grass mat
    Screenshot_Karawankenbahn_46.54813-13.98606_10-47-48.jpg
    I prefer a bit more shoulder ballast than a dead straight line
    Screenshot_Konstanz-Hausach (Black-Forest Route)_48.17104-8.21857_10-46-55.jpg
     
  49. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Well it wasn't acceptable in my day when i joined BR WR in the 1960's. Too have ballast strewn all over the track bed and the brazilian rainforest growning up to the track bed. But there are again the privatised fiasco has allowed standards to drop, in all facets of railway operation and management. No ballast sprayed everywhere in these random pics i found in 30 seconds buddy. No swathes of trees, bushes and weeds everywhere. 788e4269cf6098daf9679b3bd1769d59.jpg 8d36fe6dcb5f055e286a879412745043.jpg
     
  50. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    If you wish to have your route set in the 1960s then the ballast should be like as in your pictures.
    For it to be correct to 1980s and later the ballast does not stop two foot from the rail edge.

    In theory you could change the ground texture with TS Tools but what might look ok in one area but not in another
    Screenshot_Weardale Electric_54.54765--1.74839_17-13-47.jpg
    Peter
     

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