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Rsn Pzb Issue

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by Lamplight, Sep 22, 2020.

  1. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Hello there!
    The following situation remains a mystery to me:

    Train Sim World 2_20200920190611.jpg

    As you can see, I'm just arriving at Finnentrop. As far as I understand, I should not need to acknowledge the 2 signals in front of me:
    1. I do not need to acknowledge the 80 warning as I'm I'm slower than 95. (Geschwindigkeitsprüfstrecke)
    2. I do not need to acknowledge the signal as it's showing a clear aspect which is neither announcing a stop nor a speed restriction.
    Therefore, I should not need to use PZB Acknowledge and yet there's an emergency break application if I do not acknowledge these.
    Am I missing some crucial information here or did Dovetail screw up?

    (This was one on of the RE services Hagen-Siegen. Happened everytime I tried on multiple services)
     
  2. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    It looks like the track speed before the 8 sign is 100 which means you do have to acknowledge the sign.

    You must acknowledge any drop in speed from 100 (or higher) to below 100. So on a 100 track you would need to acknowledge the upcoming 80 - even if your actual speed is at or below 85.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
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  3. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    That 'wiki' theory looks interesting, but I don't know German :)
    My generic PZB-TSW approach is matjamca style: to aknowledge all magnet-protected restrictions.
     
  4. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    As far as I know, you need not. Let me explain: If the new speed is below 80, there's a fixed 1000 Hz magnet you need to acknowledge. For speed restrictions between 80 and 95, you pass an activation magnet that triggers a 1000 Hz magnet further down the line. That 1000 Hz magnet is deactivated again based on a timer. If you are no faster than 15 km/h over the upcoming speed restriction, the 1000 Hz magnet is no longer active when you arrive there. The track speed before does not matter. This applies whether you could do 100 or 160 before. It's solely based on your speed in the "Geschwindigkeitsprüfabschnitt".


    I'll try to find an English source for this.
     
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  5. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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  6. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Looks, You are right. Probably TSW doesn't simulate it. Intriguing and informative. GJ :)
     
  7. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Or, maybe - since the next signal is a STOP* - all magnets in this block are active in this situation.
    *That KS signal on your screenshot - is it clear (solid) or expect reduced speed (a flashing one)?

    EDIT

    Illogical. In that case, it would be orange :D nvm
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  8. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    It is correctly simulated in other cases, that's why I was so confused. I think what happens is this: The yellow arrow on the signal indicated that it is also a distant signal as well as a main signal. The next signal however shows a red aspect (it's the one leading out of Finnentrop). But that signal has its own distant signal some hundred meters after this picture. My guess is that the game incorrectly applies that restrictive aspect (of the distant signal some hundred meters away) to this signal because it has the yellow arrow. Not sure whether that's a mistake that can happen but it's the best explanation I can come up with.

    And you're welcome for the Enlish source;)


    It's solid green, not flashing.
     
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  9. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    So maybe it is because of the STOP next-ahead (all magnets active).
    But why is it showing CLEAR on this semaphore?
    Yeah, DTG :D
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  10. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I guess it's just that weird situation of 2 distinct distant signals existing that's causing this. Can't find any picture or something to see if this is prototypical to the real Finnentrop.


    That's probably what it boils down to:D
     
  11. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    When I'm getting bored with this game, such puzzles appear and it's interesting again, hehe
    I pass this semaphore several times every day (155 & RSN lover) - as it turns out - indiscriminately :D

    Besides, you enlightened me ->
    http://www.sh1.org/eisenbahn/rindusi4.htm
     
  12. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I'm totally with you. It's interesting to sit down and figure out just what is going on (or finding DTG's mistakes sometimes;))

    Me too!:D There's nothing better than driving a 155 with a heavy coal train down RSN:love:
     
  13. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, they did it well. These wagons make great noise on the tracks. Feel the mass. 155 is in a class of its own.
     
  14. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I have to admit defeat. This video shows arriving in Finnentrop in real life (8:25). It's exactly the same situation we are discussing: The KS main and distant signal shows solid green and the distant signal after it yellow. You can clearly hear PZB Acknowledge being used for both in the video. But I cannot explain how you'd know to acknowledge that signal (unless they were going faster than 95 in which case I could but I can't judge how fast they're going).
    I think I can hear the train starting to brake just before it arrives at the problematic signal (at around 8:11). So until we find a better explanation I'll just assume that the train was going faster than 95 when it hit this signal.
     
  15. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Same here (23:14). But here you can clearly hear that the brakes are only applied just prior to the signal (around 23:12). So it was most likely due to being faster than 95.
     
  16. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    1. Great finds - I'll watch the whole thing today!
    2. I'm on my way to Finnentrop, yhm. In the game, yhm :)

    You can't see it in the video, but the 1000Hz indicator could have come on.
    Should it be, if the speed is less than 95 kph? This is a mystery. In this place.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2020
  17. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    If my theory is correct and in both videos the signal was passed at a greater speed than 95 km/h then yes, the 1000 Hz indicator would have come on.
    These two videos lead me to the assumption that my initial theory (yellow aspect of distant signal "transferred" to the earlier one) is correct. In the second video, the driver acknowledged the signal with no restrictive signal aspect following (just a further construction work related speed restriction) which indicates that it was indeed due to being faster than 95. As I was not faster than that in my picture, I'm quite confident that this is a mistake in the game.

    Glad to have dug them up then, enjoy!:)
     
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  18. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I call for help from the Italian railroad superheroes :D
    delucadomenico2009 & federicodiliberto2001
    Just to be sure, yhyhy
     
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  19. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    The situation is a bit complicated to explain. As i see in the picture you are arriving to finn with a regio. The regio service does not end at finn so you will not get a Red signal at the station (for this reason the signal is green). Now there is a general rule that you must acknowledge all speed change at 80 or less. Normally the pzb does not dipending from your current speed. If you try to pass that signal at 50 for exemple your pzb starts to work too. You can see the same thing at another part of the line when you need to decrese from 10 to 8. Now probably that signal is not just a speed restriction, but it is a protection signal for the station. In italy we have 3 step for signal blocks. Distant - protection - main. For exemple as a protection of station, an heavy freight train, will drop until 55 kmh and it will take ~ 2km to get again speed. So the station is "safe". So a little recap. Acknowledge every signal change (safety first), start a great brakes every time you se a change that is 20 or more difference with the current speed limit. But you need to start to brake as soon as you see the orange arrow or the flashing signal. So after you pass the signal, acknowledge, if the the pzb start continue with the great brakes force to reduce under the pzb limit, if the pzb not start reduce the braking force to try to get the new speed limit ~200m before the change. ANOTHER good exemple is if you run the koln aachen. When you are running under pzb area at 160 with the ice you will see a orange arrow that says you to drop down from 16 to 12. As i said the chenge is 40kmh. So after the arrow, start a great brakes and acknowledge. The pzb will not start the restriction because it is not a protection but just a speed chenge, BUT if you not brake properly a emergency stop will be activated because you pass the correct brake curve. It is just to not decellerate too much the train during a run. But if you are running at 160 and you will see the signal that says 8 the pzb start to work to apply the protection for the switch in front of you (you can see that the 8 new speed limit start ~500m before the switch because if you are runnig too fast the emergency brake has time to stop or decelerate the train to "protect" the swithch and be sure that the train will not go over the rail way. Another exemple on rapid transit dlc you will get a restriction to drop down from, 160 to 100 for a switch. The pzb start to work for protection of the swithch. As i said, is better to get 5 minutes of delay than a derailment with a switch destroyed that can block a line for days. Hope this helps someone. So, acknowledge every signal changes and signal if you are not sure. Every time you see a changes that is highter than 20 or more kmh acknowledge. Every cases are different but sefety first. If someone need more clarification i'm here to help.
    Ps. In real life you can "play" with pzb button every time you want, nothing happen, because it is just a scanner
     
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  20. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I always thought you had to acknowledge all speed limits below 100, regardless of actual speed, as long as there is a magnet at the yellow sign...
     
  21. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    The signal to exit Finnentrop is red though. And please read the information in my signature. It explains how PZB works in connection to speed restrictions over and at 80. The 20 difference you mention is not accurate to the workings of PZB. We discussed that at the beginning of this thread. In general, as long as your speed while passing the speed restriction warning for 80 does not surpass 95, you needn‘t acknowledge it.

    Read the chapter 4 of the PZB instructions in my signature. These will tell you that that is not the case.
     
  22. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    It's also a bit of a point of view.

    A : What should I do as a train driver?
    B : What are the assumptions of the system's operation?

    I know a bit about magnets and signals, but not quite about the way it works, e.g. the evaluation of the braking curve.
    On what basis does PZB assess, e.g. a train is going too fast to slow down in time?
    Are there any radars?

    UPDATE

    The very essence of the action - I passed the active magnet - I confirm - OK.
    This is probably not all.

    PS

    Referring to the thread - is there a basis in the principles of the PZB system operation, so that in the case described in the thread there is a need for PZB Aknowledge?
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
  23. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    BF4488B9-B254-4335-B5B5-831EDE494EA3.png

    This is in general an example of how PZB enforces braking curves. I think it‘s calculated for every case by the train but I could be mistaken. I‘ll try to research this on German sites. If you‘d like, I could translate all of the terms in the picture for you; let me know.

    Edit: Radars are not necessary, all of the working bits of PZB happen inside the loco. That‘s how stuff like PZB Override or „Befehl 40“ work.

    Edit 2: The braking curve is indeed calculated anew for each and every scenario. You feed the maximum velocity of the train (not the track), the train lenght and weight as well as the type of brakes into the system before you start your journey and then PZB constantly checks the allowed speed (as calculated if a restriction is coming up) vs your current speed and enforces an emergency brake application as necessary. This happens continuously while earlier version of PZB (before PZB 90) did simply what they say on the box: enforce certain speeds at certain times.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
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  24. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    The calculation of the breaking curve is just an exemple. It just say the maximum permitted area of brake. The picture just inform about the curve that calculate the pzb. The train real curve is much different. Another thing is that the picture does not say what the train do ater the break. I normally use the exemple of the heavy freight that is the "hardest" to drive. We you arrive at the signal you need to apply a full brake service to start to decellerate the train, than you need to decrese the braking force to try to equalize the train to the desired speed. In real life this is impossible to make it perfectly as the picture says. To try to stay under the 55kmh (U psz mode restriction) and you are running at 100 (max pzb U speed limit) your train will continue to decellerate for a bit so at the end you will arrive up to 40kmh or less. And yes is possible to brake in that area and yes as the thread said you need to acknowledge that signal, because the general rule that everyone use is to acknowledge every signal that say a reduction to 80kmh. Because the sefety speed in europe is ~70/80kmh. Than there are others restriction. 40kmh of restricted speed for appoching for pzb U and M train (german) or 30kmh in italy. And 60 for pzb O mode train. 80kmh is the speed according with all society that if a train pass a red signal the emergency brake can stop it in under ~400m for every type of weight of the train. So yes. You need to acknowledge.
     
  25. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    OKAY. Best practices and your industry knowledge are beyond dispute :)
    The question, however, is: should this magnet be active there? There is in the game.
     
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  26. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    A: as a
    A: As a train driver you need to start the brake as soon as you see the orange arrow and the force dependig from the train weight. Than acknowledge. If the pzb start continue or increase the brakes. If the pzb not starts reduce the brakes and try to stabilize the train to the correct speed.

    B: the pzb work easly. After the front of the train pass the magnet (signal) you have 4 seconds to acknowledge. This not dependig from your speed so you can start the brake before the signal for a easier stop or speed reduction. Normally, you will se the signal ~250m before the signal. And if you want the knowledge of the route helps a lot. So you can start a brake before you see the signal too
     
  27. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Do you refer to my very first picture that started this thread? If so, please read chapter 4 of the link in my signature. It explains why I do not need to acknowledge the upcoming 80 in my picture.
    If you’re not, please excuse me speaking out of turn.
     
  28. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    I say yes, because this signal works as a protection of the station and not just a route limitation.
     
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  29. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Well now that's it :)
     
  30. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    I have never heard of such a system existing in Germany. Do you have any source on this?
     
  31. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    I say yes, because this signal works as a protection of the station and not just a route limitati


    No source but i suppose it becuse in italy we have this rule and the german signals are similar with the italian one. Maybe this case can confirm it. As an italian freight driver, i sometimes driven in german and for a general rules the german drivers said me acknowledge every signal expetially the ones under or equal to 8. Now because the magnet apply a frequence or not, it is just not a rule that you must obbey. Maybe "the station" decide to activate this magnet to help the train with a confortable stop or to be sure that a train will not pass this station over speed (protection). So maybe as the german drivers said me, probably every 8 or less orange arrow are used as a protection for this reason, they raccomand to acknowledge them.
     
  32. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Acknowledging every restriction is probably a sound course, especially if PZB is not your „native“ safety system and because in real life, an emergency brake application is of course a bigger deal than in some simulation.
    As far as I know, such a system does not exist in Germany and I‘m still of the opinion that that 1000 Hz magnet should not be active as long as your slower than 95.

    PS: Didn‘t know you‘re a real train driver; I‘m a bit jealous:). I‘d just like to add that I‘m not trying to attack your real world knowledge; I‘m just a hobbyist and you‘re the real deal. But based on my German sources on PZB I think that this situation is not prototypical to real life.
     
  33. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    OK I did a (too long of a) read through the 1000hz magnet now and I would confirm lamplight's view.
    I have found the following rules:

    Active 1000hz magnets neet to be acknowledged.

    A yellow triangle sign with the numbers 1 to 9 on it is considered a signal and indicates a new speed limit.

    If it has the numbers 1 to 7 on it, the 1000hz magnet is active and has to be acknowledged.

    If there is a 8 or 9 on it, the 1000hz magnet will only activate if you are going 15 km/h faster than what the yellow sign displays.

    Ergo, if you don't go faster than15 km/h more as allowed according to the upcoming sign, the magnet should not be active, ergo should not prompt you to acknowledge.
    Plus, if you were going too fast, the display in the Loco would display that pzb has been triggered and prompts the driver to respond.

    These are my findings.

    Sources:
    Wikipedia, rail fan lexicon, German train driver apprenticeship page "tf-Ausbildung" (from train drivers for apprentices and interested people)
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2020
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  34. matjamca

    matjamca Well-Known Member

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    This is soooooooo complicated. I thought I was getting the hang of PZB, but perhaps not.
     
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  35. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Exactly my feelings :D
    I guess for this game it is just safe to acknowledge all signals and all signs below 100. So far that has worked for me anyways
     
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  36. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    Don't worry, but no one know that in real life is really difficult to know exactly the speed of the train and how it is evolving. For exemple, the theory say if you are running at 95kmh you do not need to acknowledge it. Perfect, but for exemple the magnet is in downhill an the train gain just 1kmh and you past the magnet at 96kmh? The pzb start to work and you are not ready to start the brake for go down the pzb restriction. And expetially with the heavy train. Brakes 100m before the signal changes a lot. It is just an exemple. So is better to trust to what works in every situation. I see a an orange arrow and i'm in a full running? Perfect, i start to brake. See the numer on the signal. 12? Perfect i acknowledge, pzb is ok the train is still braking and i continue to decellerate the train to get 120kmh. The theory says that a perfect braking curve will port the train to the correct speed ~200/250m before the signal, ok but is hard to know if i'm at 400m or 600m or 300m to the signal, so i will try to get the new speed asap (with confort). This things happen expetially if you are running on a route that you don't know perfectly. So better be sure. We normally have the train timetable so we know every things of the service, but we have not a HUD in real life ahahah. Also you need to calculate that the pzb is a old sefety system and expetially with the modern train with high speed service the pzb is ata the limit of the possible, now the modern system check the route costantly so you know every changes at the right time (Lzb in german, SCMT in italy, ACSES in USA) the pzb works good at lower speed
     
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  37. delucadomenico2009

    delucadomenico2009 Active Member

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    This is a perfect recap. So this is the confirm of what i said. Orange 1 - 7 works as a protection, 8 - 9 works a and "approching" so probably if you are running a light train as soon as you see the signal you can decrese your speed and try to stay down the 15kmh. However this one do not change a lot, because with a O trype train the pzb resctiction is 85 so you will not take any difference because your new limitation is under the pzb limitation or just 5 kmh down. For M and U train your new change probably activate the pzb but the slack effect of the train will slow down your train to the pzb restriction too, so it does not change a lot honestly, so just read it as a protection and always acknowledge them to be sure
     
  38. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Yeah. I think this thread is at its end. It would seem that the active 1000 Hz is a mistake on Dovetail‘s part but as delucadomenico2009 points out in real life you would just acknowledge it to be safe and not worry about.

    So there we have our answers for both cases. I want to thank everyone for their input and having a constructive discussion!:)
     
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