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Sandpatch - Disappointing

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by OldVern, Nov 20, 2020.

  1. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    As I hadn't looked at Sandpatch yet, thought I would try a quick timetable run see how the route and trains have improved over V1. Unfortunately it seems (to me) the love has passed this one by. I decided to attempt a run with 2 x SD40 hauling an intermodal ~4000 tonnes, should have walked away with that. It needed Notch 6 just to get the train moving on a level grade and Notch 7 or 8 to keep it rolling at 15 MPH. When I shut off power for the 15 MPH as you exit the yard it felt like I was rolling through treacle - no inertia at all.

    The train and loco brakes all released (I triple checked) and nothing else out of place.

    A shame, as thus far my experience of the updated physics, even on the preserved items carried over, has been generally favourable. So unless I'm doing something wrong (and feel free to tell me), and patch remains the Achilles Heel. I can only hope they sort out the US diesel and rolling train physics in time for Cane Creek.
     
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  2. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I will say this: Sandpatch seems to be the route that people get tied up with the most because it has the most complex train setups. I am willing to bet that you missed something like cutting out the brakes on one of the locomotives (including MU-2A valve) or failing to configure DPUs properly. That is usually the case.
     
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  3. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Yes, whether you're using 2 or 4 locomotives, each has its own setup. And, don't forget to switch on banking com in the lead loco. You might be pulling 1 or 2 dead helpers at the rear.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  4. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    It sounds ad though I should have run the tutorials first - user error then!
     
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  5. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Yes, be careful as many services are starting with a wrong master/slave config. Not really wrong indeed, but not fully enabled for this type of operations. For instance: most of the masters are starting with brakes in trail mode and with engine switches partially enabled. You better check all engines config before departing. Use "CTRL + -" shortcut to fast switch cabs if you don´t want to walk the whole train lenght. This is not in the official list of commands but its a heritage control from Train Simulator that still works here.

    I reported the starting configs for most of the american locomotives I saw as inconsistent in the DLCs I own.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  6. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I find SPG to be one of the best routes now days, but you have to know how to set-up both trailing units as well as DPUs. If set up properly, then the hill isn’t a problem for the climb.

    Bringing a loaded consist down the hill with only two prime movers gets rather exciting. Had a blast bringing a loaded grain drag down to Columbia yard. Felt like a great accomplish not having busted the speed limit once on the way down. It has been much improved over the original release as CSX Heavy Haul.
     
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  7. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, the tutorials are missing some procedures. Scroll back to Oct. 2 and read the posts in "Idiots Guide To Fueling Up On Sand Patch".
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2020
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  8. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I agree, it's a lot of fun, but I think that there is a problem with the AC4400CW brakes. When I was doing Powering America pt. 2, the train would continue accelerating downhill at steeper grades like 1.5% even with the auto brake set to full service and dynamic brakes to full (lead air brakes bailed off). Maybe it is an issue with the coal cars, but it is definitely an issue with something. It was almost like the trailing front locomotive wasn't properly releasing the brakes on the freight cars despite having been set up properly.
     
  9. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    There is an issue with the dynamic brakes on the AC units that’s on the roadmap for a fix.
     
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  10. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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  11. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    But stujoy, if you read my post you will see that I am complaining about the air brakes, not the dynamic brakes. :)
     
  12. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Dynamics worked just fine on my last run, set them to about 60% and then applied train brakes at initial to 10 % to ease off the speed releasing the train brakes when I was 2 to 3 mph below. I did have only one spot on the run where it felt the brakes were acting up, but 30 % on the train got all under control... might be a track problem since I experienced that in the same place every time on my downhill runs.
     
  13. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Was this on your last run of Powering America pt. 2 (fully loaded coal train) or a different type of train like manifest/grain? I'm going to try again and double check all of the brake settings.
     
  14. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    It was on a grain drag... I did powering America a month or so ago and don’t recall any major problems... it did get dicey going downhill but was controllable —- I am sure I busted the speed limit for a stretch if I recall correctly but was able to get it back under control.
     
  15. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I just tried another coal train service and double triple checked the air brake settings, but still the air brake is functionally useless. I can hear the air releasing from the coal wagons when I set off so the connection is there. But when trying to slow the train down on a gradient it is woefully underpowered. Something is going on here.
     
  16. ScottN

    ScottN Active Member

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    Are there guides to set multiple units and DPU’s for Train Sim World 2? Since the official guide for Sand Patch Grade doesn’t tell you how to do it and non of the tutorials show you how.
     
  17. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I don't think I have any worries (apart from the suspicions about dynamic brake ... another story).
    I'm speculating now: incorrect TRAIL loco(s) settings, causing problems with the wagons.
    I know, you wrote, you checked. Take a look again to be sure :)

    obraz_2020-11-21_023302.png

     
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  18. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Cumberland yard.
     
  19. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Yep, I manually adjusted all of the trailing unit's settings. Also no rear DPU on this particular service. Still having air brake issues. The brakes are connected to the freight wagons (I can at least hear that with the hissing of brakes releasing) but it's very very weak.
     
  20. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It's a heavy train...
     
  21. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Can you provide a service name? Are you running it from Timetable or Journey? Weather? :) I'll be happy to check when I get out of bed ... Something around 3 AM at my place :D
     
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  22. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    A heavy train should be able to stop between the distance of a yellow and a red from limited speed. This train doesn't even come close. CSX would never allow a train to run through Sandpatch if it was incapable of stopping within a safe distance. Try it for yourself, Anthony.

    U876-D Yoder to Cumberland as part of the Big Power chapter of the SPG journey. It will take some time to reach the summit, but once you start going downhill you will see that even the air brake is insufficient. It is definitely possible for the dynamic brakes to be insufficient (especially with a train of this mass), but the air brake should always be able to safely stop a train. For some reason it can't with the loaded coal trains.

    If you're not convinced by this, try the scenario Powering America Part 2, which has an even longer and heavier train, and not only is the air brake weak, it can't even slow the train down at full service!

    P.S. Important note, when using the train brake I am also bailing off the lead locomotive as is prototypical. For some reason the independent brake is actually more effective at slowing the train down than the auto brake, which is part of the reason why I think it is bugged. So the train brake can slow the train down but only if the lead locomotive is not bailed off. The rate of deceleration with the indy on is more realistic but still a little weak.

    I will record a video to show what is happening.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  23. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Yes but you mentioned the dynamic on full too. That won’t help you much because they don’t work well at running speed and the issue has been investigated by DTG and a fix is in the pipeline.

    I don’t like to talk about the air brakes on SPG because without actually seeing the person drive the train and seeing what’s actually happening I can’t give any helpful advice! Too many variables, right from how the train was set up by the game, what the player has done to alter the setup, what the combination of different locos is. It wouldn’t surprise me if the AC4400’s airbrakes are also bugged though. I only drive the other two at the moment because there are no services which don’t need the dynamic brakes and therefore are a nightmare in the AC.
     
  24. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It's only the coal trains with this problem?
     
  25. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    As far as I can tell, yes. The braking effort of the wagons seems to be far too weak.
     
  26. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Interesting.
     
  27. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Here is the video starting right after the Sandpatch tunnel heading down a relatively steep slope. You can see that in order to get the train to slow down at all without help from the lead locomotive, the train requires full-service. In reality, it should be no more than 40% on that type of grade to start to slow down, and no more than 60% to slow effectively. Also, take note of the rate of deceleration with the independent brake off vs. with the independent brake on. For some reason, braking with the indy increases deceleration dramatically! Obviously, on a 5,000+ ton train with 50 coal cars, the braking effort of a single locomotive should not have such an impact and this is partially why I believe that it is bugged.



    The effect is more pronounced on the scenario Powering America pt. 2 because you are driving a longer and heavier train, where you keep accelerating downhill even with a full-service application. This is absolutely not correct and horribly unsafe! The only way to slow the train down in Powering America pt. 2 is to use the independent brake on top of a full-service application. This does not make sense. I don't have a video of this in action but if you try it yourself you will come to the same conclusion.
     
  28. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I wonder if the rain has anything to do with it.
     
  29. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Nope. First of all there is no wheelslip (HUD would indicate if they were locking up), and second of all there is no rain in Powering America part 2. I implore you to try a coal train downhill in the dry season as well.
     
  30. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    Ok. Just a theory. I won't be able to test it for a while. Can you do the same thing but with a different train?
     
  31. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Sure, I will record PA pt. 2 in a bit.
     
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  32. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    I meant a non coal train.
     
  33. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I'll do both.
     
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  34. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Yea, my mistake... 64 year brain fart...
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  35. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Here is a video of me going downhill past Sandpatch Summit on Powering America [Part 2]. You can see that fullservice is not enough to slow down on its own which is completely ridiculous. For reference, this train weighs 7,000 tons with 2xAC4400CW in the front, 50 coal cars, and 1 AC4400CW DPU.



    Here is a video of the same area but with a grain train (1xAC4400CW + 1xSD40-2 + 50 Grain wagons). This train is actually 700 tons heavier than the coal train I mentioned previously (U876-D Yoder to Cumberland) and yet it brakes a little bit easier--still pretty slowly, but you'll notice that the train brake is doing most of the work this time instead of the indy. Also, after driving this train it made me realise what was missing from the coal trains: SLACK ACTION. If you notice, in both of the videos I have posted with the coal trains, there is NO slack action kicking me in the front like there is on this earthworm. This further leads me to believe that the coal wagon brakes are not working properly.



    At this point I suppose that I should probably apologise to OldVern for hijacking his thread with my bug report. Sorry, mate. :)
     
  36. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    Excellent, plenty of information there to get me going albeit seems there are still some flaws with long train physics.

    That aside, I do wonder whether DTG should modify Timetable Mode a little for this type of route/train. I'm an experienced train simmer and I crave complex simulation - Run 8, Derail Valley with its start-up procedures, the Class 40 in TS. However, I'm sure along with 99% of other TSW users when every other route and train in Timetable Mode is key in, select direction and away it's a bit misleading on Sandpatch to find yourself sat in the Engineer's chair but still the train prep to do.
     
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  37. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    A lot. Huge difference.
     
  38. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    In my opinion, you have incorrectly configured locomotives. Conversely for TRAIL. In the layout:
    << [..A ..] [.. B ..] [.. consist ..] [.. C ..] [.. D ..]
    B and D are TRAILs
    In your video, D looks like Lead :) BR \o/

    PS Check the picture I posted, one more time.
    source

    UPDATE

    B / D config

    [​IMG]

    A & C are the same configuration except for Cut-off Valve (CUT-OUT for C)
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  39. deki32

    deki32 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. And one more thing.If you take a close look on the left hand screen you will notice that when he applies the train brakes, the brake cylinder pressure remains 0. That means that the loco he is in is configured as trail which would explain the inability to apply the brakes. The independent brakes are too strong as they are tho. With heavy rain and such a long consist, you would think that the loco would go into a slide. That needs to be looked into. Cheers
     
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  40. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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    It changed on the HUD I think though.
     
  41. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Rain / Snow with the new adhesive toys is a little 'uncalibrated'. Going to stop at Rockwood is sometimes sci-fi :D
    PS Maybe it's realistic - I don't know. A bit unnatural for me.
     
  42. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    With the various factors that make driving Sand Patch so challenging - the grade itself, track conditions, adhesion and especially the locomotive setup, it's not surprising that someone coming to the route for the first time would think -Wow, is it really supposed to be this difficult? Well, yes I think it is designed to be somewhat demanding. There are bugs, of course and those are being addressed. The brakes on the AC are flawed and I'm not selecting it in the timetable even though I love to drive it. I too had trouble with the DPU setup, mainly not realizing that the "C" loco was a mirror of the lead. I've also found that the westbound runs are quite different from the eastbound. I'm looking forward to subbing the Dash 8 to see if it performs like the AC or the older units. Anyhow, despite the learning curve, I still love SPG and its unique character.
    And thanks Old Vern for starting such an interesting thread.Hope you're doing better driving the route.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  43. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    TSW manual is incorrect in this matter. In IRL documentation Lead DPU unit has a different configuration. Mostly, it is about Cut-off Valve.
     
  44. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Check section 5.6 here: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1693369538

    General rules are:
    1. Inside each locomotive pair (or group of three or more locos): front loco is the master (setup for lead) and rest are slaves (setup for trail)

    2. Each group of locomotives in the whole consist: the master one from that group needs to have radio on and the whole train leader (which will be the player one at the front of train) also needs radio on

    Cheers
     
  45. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Everything is correct except for one thing. There is only one Master loco per train in the Brakes category.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  46. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    You're right, Freight and Cut Out so they're not exactly mirror image. My mistake.
     
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  47. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    DTG could finally publish a correct, even very general TSW manual. I used to have this problem myself and I was nervous because I didn't know what I was doing wrong.

    It has been going on for several years ... :D
     
  48. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Mmmm... I´m not an expert on american content, but be careful with this. When using banking setups via radio there needs to be a master in each group on the train. Not all can be trailing units as trailing units do not receive the radio orders and also they are not physically connected to the train master unit valves, but just to the whole train brake line. What radio does is to replicate the commands executed on the train master engine to each of the masters connected to it via radio, and those masters are the ones to manage their own slaves. That what was explained in the distributed power setup section on the TSW1 manual at least.

    In real life is different as driver can manipulate what orders to pass to each individual locomotive but in game that was the implementation at least in the past. I will check it anyway in the yard freeroam just out of curiosity.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
  49. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I am 100% sure :)
    Here is the proper setup:
    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1o7zeIn-Nshe7_bzqkd7hQg2QrV0G9xNvBevPoxTunA8/edit#gid=0

    PS The instruction from DTG is not correct and many people, in many forums, not only here, unfortunately, duplicate this incorrect data, misleading others. What I was quoting was an excerpt from REAL instruction (IRL). The game works fine in this regard, but there is an error in the documentation. There is only one MASTER-BRAKES loco.

    UPDATE

    Engine Run
    Generator Field
    Control & Fuel Pump

    The settings above could be as lead, but this is not mandatory for TRAIL. Depends on what You need:

    No Power, No brakes or “Dead in Tow”
    No Power, Full Brakes
    Or Power and Full Brakes (all three to OFF) :)

    The lead of DPU 'group' - to ON (as master-lead; mandatory)

    p. 10/11 http://cdn.akamai.steamstatic.com/steam/apps/530070/manuals/Operator_Manual_EN.pdf?t=1489684294

    UPDATE ... :)

    This is the key:

    obraz_2020-11-21_160645.png

    Set up as Lead except for Cut-off Valve.

    For the inquisitive, a solution almost identical in this matter to AC:
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited: Nov 21, 2020
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  50. geloxo

    geloxo Well-Known Member

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    Thanks sir! Definitely it worths the checking. Thanks for sharing it ;)

    Cheers
     
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