Sehs - Will There Be A Scenery Patch At Some Point?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Feb 9, 2021.

?
  1. Yes

    28 vote(s)
    22.6%
  2. No

    96 vote(s)
    77.4%
  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I’m quite enjoying this route and the 375 is a nice drive between Rochester and Faversham, despite its minimalistic changes from the ECW 377, which has some flaws.

    But anyway, I can’t help but notice as you head west towards Faversham, Ebbsfleet and St. Pancras, it’s very noticeable that the scenery takes a drastic drop in terms of quality and density. It looks in an unfinished state as there are large areas which look so bland and poorly put together.

    Let me point out that there are some really nice areas of the route, and quite a bit of detail has gone into building these areas up.

    Alternatively, some parts of the route look very rushed and shoddy. Definitely not worth £24.99 in some areas, in my opinion.

    Can us users of SEHS expect a patch to fix the scenery on this part of the route, to make it more consistent with the rest of the route? Has DTG acknowledged these scenery flaws or are they going to put their heads in the sand..?
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  2. Rudolf

    Rudolf Well-Known Member

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    We probably should report them all as bugs.
     
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  3. Trenomarcus

    Trenomarcus Well-Known Member

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    I saw the difference in quality between the high-speed part and the commuter part too. But in the commuter part there are also a big chunk of flying assets and similar things, a clear sign of a rushed building process. Still enjoyable? Yes. But as always DTG products are good only if you don't pay too much attention.

    Don't waste your time. Scenery never got fixed.
     
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  4. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    There are huge expanses on the way into London on the high speed section that look like countryside as opposed to the approach of one of the biggest cities in the world. Though I think adding more to this landscape will only compound the late load in of a lot of the scenery, which is immersion destroying.
     
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  5. Aran

    Aran Well-Known Member

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    I doubt they will acknowledge the lacking scenery, let alone do anything about it. Keep in mind that they did already make some changes after the first pre release stream so I really don't see the Devs getting permission to work on scenery, even if it really needed in some places.
     
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  6. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    I get the whole thing about staying positive, but some people are happy with the scenery? Really? Perhaps screenshots for areas of concern. One uh oh moment that struck me was during the stream and the level crossing showcase. Big deal right? Speed of barriers- whatever barely noticed, my attention was drawn to the level crossing not actually being level to the road, but ofcourse it wasnt quite finished at that point. Then I buy the route and start to see things that would be more suited to minecraft.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  7. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Yep. An unlevel level crossing with no box junction painted. It’s a small detail, but attention to detail is often crucial.
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I wonder why the level crossings looked unlevel
     
  9. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    They probably won't adress the scenery even though some want them too. So much for dtg adding a accurate representation of a route to how it would be in real life
     
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  10. hightower

    hightower Guest

    ...and all too often sadly missing :(
     
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  11. LT586

    LT586 Well-Known Member

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    .....


    I take each review with a pinch of salt but this route seems to of not just annoyed the UK core who know about these trains but globally. DTG, really, why do this?
     
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  12. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I'm from the U.S and this route has some real immersion killing issues but it's not overall a bad route but this route could've been better. I guess dtg had to rush the route to meet a deadline since it was already pushed back
     
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  13. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I have seen at least one review from someone who lives along the route and he was very impressed with the detail.

    There are certainly areas which could do with some work, a building in mid air above a cutting for instance, but I am satisfied enough to enjoy the route, so I chose satisfield, that doesn't mean that I wouldn't like to see improvements/changes.
     
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  14. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Of course, even if this route had knocked it out of the park it barely matters when your shadows only draw this far in front of you rendering certain Time of Day and lighting conditions pretty much unusable. Will this ever be addressed?

    1.jpg

    Needless to say all the trains are glowing in the dark too.
     
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  15. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    The shadow draw distance will probably be fixed when tsw3 comes out. *SMH*
     
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  16. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I think the truth is it will only be fixed when DTG drop support for last gen consoles, which will likely be a minimum of 2 years from now. To suggest that they are not now holding this game back is ridiculous.

    I refuse to believe that’s the best UE4 can do with shadows without it becoming so taxing that it would break a 3090, which is what DTG would have us think.
     
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  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I mean at this point I have a next gen console and I don't think last gen is the issue. There are some games that don't have this issue at all. If they did drop support for last gen in the next 2-3 years, I would support that decision because at some point those consoles will die off and it'll be time to move on
     
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  18. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    This shadow draw distance on PC has nothing to do with consoles. On PC it is already much further in the distance than on PS4/Xbox. On these it it basically 20 metres in front of you; in that screenshot it looks more like 60-100. The game already looks much better on PC than on console so there is no way they are holding PC back, at least on draw distance anyway. Matt already said that even increasing the shadow draw distance even just a little bit has a massive hit on FPS. Not everyone on PC plays with a 3090. The minimum requirements are a 970.

    Are you seriously saying that the quality of the route 'barely matters' because of shadow draw distance in one or two types of weather setting. Bit dramatic if you ask me.

    I would be amazed if DTG keeps up support for last gen for another 2 years + as you claim. I think they might even drop support in the annual update this summer when they move to 4.26.
     
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  19. DTG Natster

    DTG Natster Community Manager Staff Member

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    This poll is really interesting to get a good sense of the community feeling towards the scenery as it stands. At the moment some people are happy but the majority feel we have missed the mark.

    It's natural to be disappointed if we haven't met your expectations. But we have been collecting your feedback and we have a good sense of where you think we've done well and what you feel needs to be improved.

    Some of the more major issues will certainly be given an update to rectify anything that is out of place or just isn't working as intended. But any missing scenery won't have been left out intentionally to try and improve performance.

    This then leaves the question "When will we get these updates and improvements to scenery?"

    That isn't currently something I can give you a firm timeframe for and if we tried to guesstimate it would only lead to further disappointment. I will ensure we communicate with you if we start working on improving the scenery, and I will continue to collect all of your thoughts and feedback and make sure your opinions are heard.
     
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  20. bescot

    bescot Well-Known Member

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    I've noticed the lovely lush grasses which cover the track side in East Coastway are nowhere in sight on SEHS. ECW is so detailed and nicely put together, so what happened? There just bare bright green ground texture in so many many places, yet the link from Ebbsfleet high Level to the Chatham lines has grass all over the track. Did someone spill the grass seed in the wrong place?

    Gillingham depot isn't finished - there's nothing between the shed lines and the nearly road.

    We should have had two ballast variants. New ballast for the HS section, ECW brown stuff for the classic.

    No line side clutter as earlier routes. It looks rushed and released before finished.
     
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  21. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Thanks for the reply DTG Natster.

    If you haven’t seen the route already, there’s a real feel of an ‘unfinished’ state. It’s not a case of one or two assets missing from the route, it genuinely feels unfinished. This is evident as the scenery quite literally goes bland the nearer you get to HS1.

    My question is, why has this happened? Did the developers run out of time? Were there different teams with different abilities working on separate parts of the route?

    It really disappointing to see the TS1 version of the route is more detailed. Whilst the station models are nice, the rest of the route is a let down. There are areas which literally have a simple green texture and that’s it. It looks very rushed and unfinished.

    I hope this lesson is learnt for future routes because this is simply unacceptable and is a step back from what has been produced in the past. DTG need to manage their time accordingly and consistency when it comes to quality of DLCs, as it fluctuates wildly.
     
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  22. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    The High Speed 1 area is in dire need of improvement, looks way too plain, the fencing/sound barriers have been put in the wrong place or are missing. Whilst the kent section for the most part is very nice, it seems like some areas lack foliage than in other places.

    And do I need to even mention about how completley wrong Dartford Crossing looks?

    One word I would use to describe SEHS is inconsistent.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  23. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I think you’ve completely mis-interpreted what I was saying.

    Firstly, the shadow draw distance is marginally better on PC, granted, but only marginally. I’ve got a stack full of engine.ini changes in there that make the game look the way it does. Just because it is slightly better doesn’t mean it’s good.

    I obviously wasn’t suggesting that everybody has a 3090. Quite the opposite, and not the point I was making. The requirements are largely irrelevant too, because they’re not realistic. What you quote are not the ‘minimum’ requirements, they are the recommended requirements - a GTX 970 or AMD RX 480. Those are some seriously budget (dare I say obsolete) cards and your experience of playing this game with them would be less than satisfactory.

    Next, of course I wasn’t suggesting that the quality of a route ‘barely matters’ (it was tongue-in-cheek and you’ve taken it very literally). It was a round about way of saying that no matter how good a route might be, play it at night, in winter, at sunrise or sunset your enjoyment will be spoilt by the ridiculous state of the lighting. This has been the case for 4 years, and it doesn’t look like it’s changing anytime soon.

    Finally, it may well not be 2 years (another point you’ve taken literally), but I’ll bet it will not be until sales on the new consoles outstrip those on the old, information they will of course have. If you think I’m wrong, when do you see that happening?
     
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  24. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    East Coastway in terms of scenery is just amazing to look at and in terms of scenery, that's the best british route ever made but it's a shame that that consistency of scenic routes didn't come for hs1. I'm just curious as to why is this route inconsistent scenery wise. DTG are known to make pretty nice routes, hma, east coastway, NTP, GWE and I'll give them a standing ovation for that but i'm curious to know what's causing the inconsistency of routes like this.
     
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  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I would agree with that. I had a run on ECW last night and the scenery does have far more depth. I think SEHS is good in places, the HS1 section I suppose looks a bit generic, I don't think the rural section looks too bad but you can see a marked difference with ECW, it was on the roadmap a long time though so I didn't get the feeling they had rushed it, I always thought it would come out before Christmas. Maybe it is something we will have to accept with the autogen tool, I would prefer shorter but more detailed routes personally.
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    If this was a result due to autogen, then it seems that it needs some improvements. Yes it'll give us longer routes which is what people want but I don't want that to come at the cost of getting generic routes.
     
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  27. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Hey, my video! Yes, this annoyed me. And I'm from NYC. It really frustrated me to see how they handled the HS1 portion of the route. The scenery all around this area was done poorly, and it cannot be accepted by the community.

    You have routes in the game like HMA that have great scenery and really makes you feel like you are there, while this route's scenery, in some places, is just not there yet. It seems that more time was needed to really make this route feel right. If you look at the comparison of the HS1 portion between Real Life, TS1, and TSW 2, you'll see a big difference. I find it mindboggling that the TS1 version looks more accurate to Real Life than the TSW 2 version when the TSW 2 version is supposed to be more detailed than anything we've seen before.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  28. hightower

    hightower Guest

    Or vary the price based on the length of the route, and literally buy some more development time. A one price fits all approach clearly isn’t working.

    Would you have paid £30 for SEHS if it had been up to the standard of ECW, GWE or HMA from start to finish? I know I would. Happily.
     
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  29. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I probably would yes, especially for a route I was extremely interested in, I don't mind paying extra, although for some it might not be viable but there are sales quite frequently. I suppose DTG would have to work out how it affects the profitability of building routes. Would enough people pay more, which is the million dollar question or the £24.99 question?
     
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  30. CrAzZyKiLLa

    CrAzZyKiLLa Active Member

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    Also, another question could be is this the level of detail to expect from longer routes? as people ask for longer routes but are then disappointed with the end result, its clear that more development time is required for bigger projects to maintain the same high standards.
     
  31. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Train sim tv posted a 1st drive review. He comes across as a decent level headed chap, a well known route builder. A lot of people on here will likely know him. If he was happy with the build then I might reassess my own view. Hes just as disappointed as most of us.
    If time is a big factor. Why then does one dev get the chance to add cabinets with working lights but then other sections are left devoid of foliage, weird transitions between trackside and surroundings. Tidy lawns with small garden fences guarding 60mph 3rd rail junctions (Ebbsfleet east). Sinkholes. Roads going of the cliff edges etc. It highlights how important scenery placement is. When a 10 year old predecessor via 3rd party with lesser assets can stand up to UE4 TSW or even better it in some circumstances.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  32. jevan-dean

    jevan-dean Active Member

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    Why can't they just add a setting for PC users that changes it then so people can tweak to their system
     
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  33. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    Chicken and Egg. Console sales outstrip PC numbers. PC sales dont increase because the game panders too much to meeting the limitations of current old gen consoles.
    When next gen becomes more readily available, I hope DTG recognise this.
     
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  34. jevan-dean

    jevan-dean Active Member

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    They should just come up with a formula based on the amount of track and the amount of stations and the amount of (NEW) stock. Then we would get a fair price while keeping the details.
     
  35. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    The level of scenery detail of SEHS for TSW2 was lacking even compared to the TS2021 SEHS route from like 5 or 6 years ago. The better lighting and graphical effects can only make up for so much. They can't disguise low quality or sparsely placed scenery assets. If DTG put in as much effort and attention to detail and polish in their scenery as they do the trains they make for TSW2, it would be a much, much better sim IMO. SEHS is a route where the 395 is utterly fantastic (regardless of your feelings on traction motor volume), but is let down by really, really poor scenery quality. In general, they nailed the stations themselves, but the towns and countryside in between is often astonishingly ugly.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2021
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  36. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I think if we’re all honest with ourselves, £24.99 is probably too cheap. The price hasn’t changed in the 4 years I’ve been playing the game and that isn’t right. Armstrong Powerhouse charge anywhere from £15 to nearly £30 for a single loco and their stuff is top drawer. As much as I love AP products, sometimes they can be a bit over the top and are probably a little too in depth for TSW (not by functionality but by having every variant and livery known to man). Even so, DTG sold SEHS with 51 miles of route and 2 trains (albeit 1 essentially a re-skin) at a similar price point.

    Personally, I also think there are too many DLC coming out in too quick a succession and DTG seem to be going for quantity over quality. The problem is that clearly the demand is for quality, so they end up having to go back and improve what they’ve done to meet the demand, rather than devote their time to building quality routes in the first place. I’ve always said that a DLC comes out and almost always within 72hrs the focus of forum/Discord chatter turns towards what’s next, or what is on the wish-list. It’s happened again here and that’s not right either. I freely admit that of all the DLC I’ve bought I’ve probably played collectively no more than 40% of it. It gets repetitive pretty quickly and the next shiny thing is on the horizon so it gets cast aside.

    It’s a catch 22 situation and the dev team must be as sick of it as we are. I know I’m as guilty as the next person, that I let my disappointment take over sometimes but there is so much potential in TSW it’s just such a shame to see it being wasted.

    If raising the price of a route by £5 (which is entirely fair - no price stays static for this long after all) would buy some breathing space for DTG management to allow the developers time to concentrate on a level of quality they can be proud of then I’m all for it. At least give it a try, what have they got to lose?
     
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  37. Rob39

    Rob39 Well-Known Member

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    I wouldn't have issue with that. As long as the release it, fix it later stops, or becomes an occasional instance and not the norm.
     
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  38. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    I would definitely pay a bit more if it meant a reliable, consistent quality DLC release.

    Not this unfinished mess we randomly seem to end up with, with it being ‘Oh we may fix it if we have time, but no promises’ rubbish DTG come out with.

    We shouldn’t have to think whether the next DLC will be good or bad, but unfortunately DTG’s quality control is nonexistent.
     
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  39. DaiKnapz

    DaiKnapz New Member

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    I just want to add to this I am yet to buy SEHS even though it was a route I was really looking forward to. It was my first route in TS and was ultimately one of my favourites. I feel the scenery is too lacking in parts of the route to justify buying it at full cost. I also have the advantage of being on PC which would allow me to make use of the community made mods that would make a significant improvement, however I still don't think this route in its current state deserves my money. If there were improvements to bring the route up to the high quality we all know that DTG can achieve I would snap this up in a heartbeat, would even pay more as some have suggested.
     
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  40. RotorHed

    RotorHed Member

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    It’s not last gen consoles causing this at all. If it was then PCs wouldn’t be exhibiting the same problem. Geometry Pop-in and close shadow rendering draw distance are a side effect of poor code.

    I also don’t think it’s UE 4 that is the root cause - there are many very taxing and better looking games on console that don’t have such weirdness. I might expect this on a Switch - but PS4 and Xbox shouldn’t have this problem.

    Most games use variable resolutions on those consoles and things like checkerboard reconstruction - a solution not in use in TSW2 as far as I can tell.

    So that leaves DTG itself and their dev team skills. That’s my guess where the problem lies. Those streams around December and January they were talking about hiring new people who need to be trained. They were understaffed before and those people they just hired need a year plus to really become useful.

    I think they’re just not very adept with UE and they’ve developed the core using inefficient methods and tighty integrated so changing something in one place is having undesirable knock on effects.

    I think it’ll be TSW4 and maybe even 5 before we see an efficient engine in use.

    To me this problem is higher priority than new content. But from DTGs perspective it doesn’t generate new revenue so it’ll just drift along in the background.
     
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  41. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I agree with what you’re saying, except maybe the bit about consoles.

    The way I look at it is that whilst those consoles exist DTG don’t seem like the sort of company that will invest man hours into rectifying a problem that (for now at least) will only improve the experience of about 40% (PC + New Gen consoles) of their player base. I am assuming the reported split in player numbers is actually true. It is in that sense that I mean last-gen consoles are holding the game back.

    The unfortunate truth (and there is no way to dress it up), is that on the whole the lighting in this game is utter cack and simply doesn’t work properly, save for 2 or 3 daytime weather combinations.

    I’m no programmer but your explanation is completely plausible. Something has to be wrong somewhere if even now, whilst fixing the tunnels for the SEHS patch, they are still struggling. It seems that rather than use the world lighting so everything is lit as per the real world, almost everything is in fact lit individually which can only assume for performance reasons. The sun can have passed over the horizon but the world is still lit as if it is high in the sky. Your train can be in pitch darkness at twilight but be lit as if it’s still daytime. It’s ridiculous.

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but those who were around at the time will remember that when GWE was first released the lighting technique was completely different and it suffered with performance issues, particularly at Slough and Reading. They resolved those issues by entirely changing the way game lighting worked at that point and it’s never gone back.
     
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  42. hightower

    hightower Guest

    re the console thing...I was just watching last nights stream and as far as I’m concerned there’s concrete proof there.

    Question - Can we have AI trains sound their horns at crossings?

    Answer - We wanted to do that but can’t afford the memory.

    So which platforms memory? It isn’t the likely average 16GB (32GB in my case) on PC that’s the problem. It’s not the 16GB on the PS5 or XBOX Series X. It is very likely, however, to be the 8GB on the last-Gen consoles that has meant DTG have given up on that feature (and no doubt many others) for now.

    Am I wrong? ;)
     
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  43. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    The 8GB on current generation consoles must be a bottleneck.
     
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  44. davidh0501

    davidh0501 Well-Known Member

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    Would be happy to pay more as well.
    It’s not as if we get a new route every month.
     
  45. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I am sure ten years ago a route add-on for TS1 was £24.99 so I don't think there could be too much angst if the price rose by £5 or so, sales are frequent enough anyway for those who are unable or unwilling to pay full price. I seem to recall some of the early MSTS commercial add-ons were more than that. Pretty much everything else has gone up. The higher price though, the higher expectation and can DTG live up to that?
     
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  46. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I would be prepared to pay £29.99 for a route if extra time was taken to ensure the quality of the route was better than we’ve seen recently and that bugs were far fewer in number. Would an increase in price guarantee that though? We know the quality of routes can be excellent at the current price (ECW).
     
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  47. hightower

    hightower Guest

    I agree. Remember ECW was a shorter route that, in theory, required less dev time. If they have to increase the development time to maintain the standard on the longer routes then they should also increase the price.

    As theorganist says, they’ve been charging £24.99 since before TSW was a twinkle in their eye. That was fair as the earlier routes were way shorter than their TS1 counterparts but with that said, a price increase to buy more development headroom on longer routes is entirely justifiable and fair.
     
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  48. mattdsoares

    mattdsoares Well-Known Member

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    Yup, and unfortunately that seems unlikely to change. DTG has made it very clear that they will not even entertain the idea of developing features for one platform and not others. The layering thing being an odd exception because they sort of found out the problem too late once it was already built out. They claim it's because it would be unfair to players of one console vs others (it wouldn't be), however I think it has just as much to do with not wanting to fragment the install base by having to manage multiple build versions that would eventually start to really diverge in terms of features. That means more time which means more development costs. It's cheaper to maintain one build that's consistent across all platforms. That's my suspicion anyway.
     
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2021
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  49. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I agree that I'd entertain a price rise if the quality was sufficient. However paying £30 for the quality demonstrated in SEHS wouldn't happen for me.

    I do wonder if increasing the price would significantly decrease sales in the casual console sector..
     
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  50. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    The current voting %’s show the overwhelming majority are underwhelmed by the quality of the scenery in SEHS. I hope DTG takes this feedback seriously - for the benefit of everyone playing the game.
     
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