Settling The Br 101 Discussion

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by w.lichko, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. w.lichko

    w.lichko Well-Known Member

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    My message to dovetail:

    (I don't want to bash or blame DTG nor spread any negativity, just want to give some friendly feedback/ideas)

    If the core game has an underlying core memory use optimization issue that directly limits the timetable size on HMA for consoles.
    and
    if it's not possible or too strenuous to develop/model the cab car for whatever reason,
    then what's the point of producing this loco add-on, just postpone it for now until the more pressing matters have been resolved.

    As much as I would LOVE to have the br 101, I would rather have a quality and complete product and I'll happily pay for it.
    For me, that includes the cab car and the inclusion of added IC services to HMA, HRR, and RRO. (please)

    If you're going to do it, do it right.

    It would also be helpful to communicate or hint at some sort of plan for this dlc and at least some of its content, to avoid further unnecessary confusion, disappointment, and minor outrage. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
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  2. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I think things would sell better and the community would be happier if routes and trains were always complete (full routes) with all relevant functions snd services being available. It’s just cost vs time etc.
     
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  3. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be fair if they charged a little extra for such a complete DLC, I'd say €17/€20 would be reasonable.

    I think when it comes to these matters we forum people always have higher standard than the bulk of people that will buy this DLC. Many would be more than happy to buy the 101 just to experience the "flagship" german electric, so I would expect that everything will go according to plan, also DTG never delayed or cancelled a TSW product, even in the forums only ~48 people deemed the cab truly important, and surely it's not worth all the time and effort to create the cab car or add more layers to please 50 of us...

    While I'm a bit sad about this I don't believe anything will change
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
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  4. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I believe they have a set target price for loco dlc, as said by TSG they have to make that target retail price.
    Apart from that, if it is that complex and time consuming in contrast to the final price, then oh boy DTG why did you not plan this loco as a main train for a new Route, with wagons and control car...
    Having said that, then we would still not have it on older routes by dlc standards so far, so any way you look at it, there is always something that had to be sacrificed.
    Right now though it feels like there is more sacrificed than actually gained
     
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  5. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    Thank you w.lichko for your words! They summarize my feelings pretty much exactly.

    TSW and esp. its loco DLCs are sold for a price that is above premium level and therefore should fulfill quality standards. As a customer you have higher expectations for a Bentley than for a Morris as well... (or Ferrari / Alfa, Porsche / Golf, Lexus / Daihatsu, ...)

    Although I don't believe in any positive changes as well given the quality standard of the 101 DLC (regardless the actual model quality) it should be offered for free. For the price of one route and one loco DLC car enthusiasts can get a Forza Horizon / Motorsport Ultimate Edition with 700+ cars, all of them modelled nearly as nice as the TSW models... and quite realistic physics as well (ok, only in the Motorsport series).

    What I find really odd is that there is such a good basis with so much great work done in TSW and it loses 80% of its gameplay potential just because of not going 'the extra mile'..

    .. and btw, in comparison to german TS classic forums we are extremely positive towards TSW here. The game is widely seen there as a graphic demo without any in-depth use...
     
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  6. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    I don't think comparing DTG to Microsoft in regards to manpower and funding is fair. They have completely other possibilities in terms of pricing, as well as arcade racing games having a higher audience than train simulation.
     
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  7. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Yep, I usually like to compare them to other "niche" simulator creator, such as Eagle Dynamics (DCS), Aerosoft, etc.. and actually the price of 13.99 IMO is very competitive when it comes to loco DLCs, of course there are a few exceptions (like this upcoming 101, 363 and 204) but generally I think the value for money is spot on for TSW.

    I agree, but if going the extra mile would cause every DLC to cost €50/60 than I am not sure it would be worth it.

    In this case I would be happy to pay a premium if the BR101 comes out as a complete set but also acts as a sort of "German IC DLC" which will add IC services to HRR, RRO and HMA, and the future possibility of a substitution for other locos.

    What I would expect for 13.99 is either a complete trainset or the ability to use it, at least on both RRO and HMA, given the fact it can't substitute any exist locos (unlike all mainline german loco DLCs)
     
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  8. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Well, the release of TSW2 was delayed :D
     
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  9. Lamplight

    Lamplight Well-Known Member

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    Very interesting points, everyone. I for one am just curious what the official statements will be when the time comes. The decision to leave out the cab car is odd and while not a deal breaker for me (please don‘t lynch me), I would love to hear what the exact (official) reason was for leaving it out.

    Far more interesting to me is layering. If handled as usual, we will only get the Br 101 on HRR and possibly on upcoming German routes (even that would be new though as loco DLC has never added layers to other routes as far as I know). It would be a terrible shame if we could only use it on the short HRR with low speeds (for a Br 101, that is). Therefore, I‘m curious what the official statement concerning layering will be. I imagine that this could still make or break the DLC for a lot of players.
     
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  10. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    At this point I just hope the fact it only runs on HRR is wrong... at the end Matt just said "No HMA because no Cab Car" everything else is just an assumption based on past loco DLC, so there is still the possibility we are wrong.

    As you said we'll see when we are closer to release :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
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  11. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    So it might be back-layered into RRO, maybe.

    More likely is that provision will be made in Hamburg-Lubeck for layering it in (it would be absurd to do Hamburg without IC services!)
     
  12. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    Of course it's not. My point might be a bit melodramatic but... what in life is fair? :D The money is the same but why should a try not be worth it?
    The football club of my home town has to face opponents with a ten times higher budget and a stadium where all our inhabitants would fit in and there would still be plenty of space left. But we beat them. Three times in a row. :cool:

    Why should TSWs audience not be expanded? Why is it limiting its already limited audience even more with things like that? My father-in-law, an elderly gamer himself, visited us some months ago and was really impressed by TSW TSW although he's not interested in trains at all. But he loved the relaxation TSW has to offer esp. on a huge screen with some beer on the table and stated it would be the ideal game for him. As he asked about the price he thought I was kidding though... and went for Forza in a shocked state.

    I think TSW has the potential to reach this target group very well but either the 'extra mile' needs to be covered or the prices heavily lowered in order to achieve this.
    After a long day at work many might not in the mood for another exhausting fast paced game but would enjoy some relaxing experience with some tricky tasks where not every tenth of a second decides over victory or loss.. and therefore TSW is great!
    And I really think it could be worth the effort. Yes, it is a bit risky, but in Order for a business to be successful you always have to invest first. Why not in a super loco 101 - DLC where you really get something for your money? We waited several years for the 101 yet, some more months won't really bother :) and then DTG would have a comparison. Extra effort, more sales vs. normal effort, less sales. As loco DLC don't sell to well this would be an ideal testing playground.

    I really want the game to succeed and I'm enjoying it very much. Otherways I had turned my back on it long time ago.
    And I still believe it is possible, there is not much left in comparison to what has been achieved already.

    And btw:.TSWs models exceed those of Forza! :cool::D
     
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  13. w.lichko

    w.lichko Well-Known Member

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    (All hypothetical here, this is a big “what if”)

    In terms of layers, optimally the loco add-ons shouldn’t solely be attached to one particular route (like in TS). Certainly in the case of the br 101. Adding IC layers to other new and pre existing routes would then be less troublesome and more encouraging&viable as the dlc would attract more customers. As anyone who owns at least one of the following; HMA, RRO, HRR is a potential buyer.
     
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  14. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The issue of the 101 not being able to be used on HMA is kind of irrelevant as I don’t think it will ever appear on it. HMA isn’t getting any new layers, it’s full. If it’s only being released for HRR (which it is) and it doesn’t need the cab car there then DTG aren’t going to make the cab car, no matter how many people object on the forum. I’ve seen comparisons made with the Baby Bullet DLC coming with the cab car but that needed the cab car for the route it was being made for. The 101 doesn’t for use on HRR even if it would have one in reality.

    Like others, I don’t understand why they are making this DLC in the form they are but that’s the decision that’s been made. I think it’s highly unlikely they will halt production of it or add the cab car now. All loco DLC is limited in some ways and this one may be more limited than others but they can only release loco DLC for the routes they have or as part of the included trains in a route release.

    I can only assume it was included in this form this year because there won’t be any routes coming in the near future that need it as a main train or need the cab car and they’ve wanted to release the loco for a while, and it can add layers without the cab car to routes that are planned or anticipated for future release. It will sell well because the loco is popular. It’s the loco that’s the star, not the cab car, and lots of people will want it. I don’t think they have got as far as considering how people will use locos in scenario planner when deciding what to release, so that won’t have entered into it. They also don’t go back and add timetable layers to old routes, so that’s unlikely to have been part the planning.

    So it’s highly likely it will be released as planned in the form it is planned to take and nothing will change that. I believe it was to be released for SKA, a nice long high speed route, but the community persuaded them to change it to a shorter, slower route, so the community can’t complain that HRR is too short for it and can’t get it to the full speed because it’s what they asked for. Maybe the community have made the DLC have less value by that action, for the sake of a bit of reality.
     
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  15. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    I would highly doubt HMA is "full", there are plenty of gaps left in the timetable for the IC runs, even with all the layers on, because they would use the same lines the ICE uses, not the slower regional express and freight lines. Bakerloo Line has a much busier timetable. The point is that the memory optimization should help add the present HMA layers to console, and add more layers in future, this memory optimization could be released by the time the DB BR 101 is out.

    The loco might well be the "star" but isn't it kind of empty with the wrong formation? Would you be annoyed if Southeastern high speed came with class 395s in a 3-car formation, I mean technically are the middle cars even needed on it by your definition? Just give us a 2-car formation and call it a day I say.

    The community complained because it wasn't on a route it runs on in real life, which is a pretty valid reason to not put a loco on a route, I have no idea why you're trying to stick two fingers up to the community with your last paragraph with a thinly veiled "Haha you complained now you get it on a route you don't want it on suckers" but anyway. I'd bet nobody said change it to Hauptstrecke Rhein Ruhr, and even on Hauptstrecke Rhein Ruhr the loco would run with a cab car, so to not make it because its "technically" not needed on the route seems pretty lazy, it would be better waiting to release it with a route its appropriate for, and with a cab car, than this attempt, and yet they wonder why loco DLC doesn't always sell well (they've mentioned loco DLC doesn't sell well on streams a few times). I might be in the minority but I generally think DTG have done a pretty good job as of late, the release of TSW2 and the DLC that has come after has been of a pretty high quality (HMA, LGV, DB BR 363) which I've really enjoyed but this seems like a mis-step. I thought one of the big reasons to start a new franchise with TSW after TS classic was to not make the same mistakes that had been made before, this seems like an opportunity to avoid a mistake.
     
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  16. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. Because if the addon is like all the other loco add ons, only people who own HRR can even buy this DLC. It's like the BR 182. I'd love to have this loco but have no interest in RT.
    As Sam once explained, DTGs loco add ons do not sell as well as routes because their Loco Addon policy: Only people who own a particular route are possible people who buy this DLC. No one else (Correct me if I am wrong!).
    And I think HRR was not their best selling DLC as it is quite short. I own it, but only because I live in this area and know the route VERY well.

    My guess is that they change their loco policy with this Addon. But who knows.
    Maybe DTG has seen that this loco in particular seems to be so much wanted as this Loco DLC is as hard discussed as no loco DLC yet imo.
     
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  17. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    You are of course absolutely right, I don't believe anything will change up until release, and highly doubt that much (if anything) will be done with it after release. Maybe layering it on new upcoming routes, but no backwards addition to older routes and no control car being added afterwards. Yet I found it important that people including myself give that feedback.

    By the way, there was the roadmap where we first saw the switch from SKA to HRR. The next roadmap it was at first shown as SKA again, and got updated a few minutes later back to HRR. And when people asked about it on the corresponding roadmap stream that evening Sam said "The BR 101 was never intended to come for SKA in the first place", so it was not the community that made that change happen, but an error that has been dragged along from previous roadmaps due to confusion of which is which (and happened on other announced planned/in production german content as well where routes got messed up) so don't try to pin that on the people who wanted to see this loco in all its glory. Besides that, the BR 101 only ever crosses over the SKA portion of track once or twice on a weekend and - with a control car.
    Surely fans of british railroads, routes and locos would be as unhappy with a decision to put a train on a route where it is never seen, or at least seen that scarce that you could not even create a proper timetable? Why should that feeling be different for fans of german railroading? It is always easy saying these things when it is about something that does not bother you personally.

    Imagine they added the British Rail 68 from TransPennine Express but decided to not do the Mark 5a control car and furthermore put it on East coastway.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2021
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  18. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Just because there's no head-end station on the route, doesn't mean IC cab cars don't run there. What you would see is 95 % of locos facing one way (let's say towards Dortmund) with cab cars all the other way (Bochum). Therefore you'd run half the services with 101, half with cab cars like IRL. THAT'S why people want it in the game. It's heavily present everywhere, not just stations like München.
     
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  19. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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  20. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    I don't think so. The IC are about the only loco-hauled passenger trains left in the DB that aren't Doppelstock. The last stand of the m-Wagen.
     
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  21. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I’m not sticking two fingers up to the community. I am part of the community. I’m just saying that the train may have had a better route to run on, even if not realistic, if the community hadn’t intervened. It’s not coming as a full realistic package, which is down to DTG, so it being in an unrealistic setting, wether that be the wrong route or the wrong formation, it’s not necessarily a good idea to try and change DTG’s plans. You might replace one issue with another.

    I also said in my post that I find it odd that they are releasing it now, with no cab car and with no decent route to get good value from it, other than they might just want to release it because it’s been requested so often and will be popular. I’m not defending their decision to release it in this way but having it released for HRR might not be as good as having it run in a longer faster route. They can’t do it for HMA because there is no cab car, they can’t do it for SKA because it doesn’t run there, and so on.

    There was no point me just repeating all that has been said, it adds nothing to the conversation, and the community did ask for it to be released for HRR because it runs there for real. They might not have realised that this would be the only route they get it for or that the cab car wasn’t coming but they did ask for it. DTG are delivering that request even if it still doesn’t make sense. I’m not defending their decision to do it.
     
  22. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    I know that. DTG have decided not to make the cab car for whatever reason. I’m saying that they aren’t going to change their mind now, no matter how much people ask for it. What happens in real life isn’t always what we get in TSW. There are many examples of services running with the wrong trains. I can’t see them making a special case for a cab car that isn’t required for the players to use the DLC in both directions on the route it is made for just because it’s what is there in real life or because that’s what the players want. This is at least the correct train and coaches, which is better than some other things we’ve been given. It’s not a new problem with DTG releases. As I said before, I’m not defending them, just saying that they won’t add what’s essentially another loco to a DLC because we want it.
     
  23. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    So in the first two paragraphs you say that you're saying its not the communities fault, then in your last paragraph you say that it is our fault because we said it doesn't run on SKA in real life? Make your mind up. No one asked specifically for it to come on Hauptstrecke Rhein-Ruhr, I think most people were pretty disappointed once it did change to that route to be honest. I was one of the people that gave feedback on this forum saying it doesn't run on SKA, so I guess I can look forward to the reviews saying: "It's Articuno's fault this is rubbish guys, don't blame DTG!!!"

    You can say that releasing something that's a popular suggestion is good, but surely it's not if it is released like this. More than half of the people who would buy this on this poll aren't going to buy it for this, and yes you can say that the forums is not representative but if some people do buy it without doing the research they are then going to be pissed it doesn't have a cab car or run on other routes and give it a bad review, which will then impact sales further.

    One point of these forums is to give feedback to DTG on their decisions, so what's the point in coming into this discussion and saying "Oh DTG aren't gonna change anything so don't bother"?
     
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  24. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    You can stop pushing this now. As mentioned several times now, official statement is that the train was never intended for SKA in the first place. The community did not make that change at all.
     
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  25. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    The community didn’t ask for it to be put on HRR at all.
     
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  26. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Alot of the negative reviews for HRR were because of the length of the Route. 22.6 Miles is too short for Regional Express services when your doing 125+ Km/h and even for the S-Bahn services. This is why I don't like when Sam says route length doesn't matter but the variety matters because HRR is the prime example of a route that has so much variety (S-Bahn Regional Express, Freight and soon InterCity services and potentially InterCity Express services) but little to offer in terms of length for all those services. HRR was simply too short for the speeds of the route and I honestly don't see what the DB BR 101 IC services would add to hrr simply because the route is too short for the speeds of all the trains that run on it meaning you wouldn't be able to use the 101s full potential on HRR. Hell, when I play HRR, I mostly use the S-Bahn services instead of the Regional Express services because of how short the route is and how quickly you can finish the Regional Express Services. It's a route that I sorta regret buying because of how short it is. Yes the Bakerloo line is 14 miles and is the shortest route dtg have made, but the thing with the BKL is that the route has 24 stations and all the stations are separated by a average distance of 0.6 Miles-500 yards which means your always gonna stop which makes the play time of the route around 53 minutes. It's good to add variety to routes but the routes do need to be at a good length so we can use all the trains to it's full potential or for a long period of time during a service. The LGV route is another example of a route that is simply too short for the speeds that your doing and that is the longest route DTG have made for tsw2 so far. HRR could definitely use an extension to Dortmund HBF which is only 11 miles from Duisburg HBF and would only require 8 additional stations for the S-Bahn Services or an extension to Dusseldorf HBF or Dusseldorf Airport or even farther than that.

    As for the cab car, it is a shame that DTG have basically have given the 101 without the cabcar. It basically makes the whole train in a incorrect formation to what it would be in real life. That's basically like adding the 146 with the dostos but without the cabcar which would be unrealistic or adding the 395s but instead of adding a 6 car or 12 car formation, you just add a 3 car set in which you would get two motor cars and one passenger car. I hope there is a good explanation for the people who are upset as to why the cabcar was not made. An explanation would be good
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
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  27. Coppo

    Coppo Well-Known Member

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    perhaps... they are planning another pack with the cab car and Bord Bistro...
     
  28. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    That would set up a dangerous precedent - "buy not one but two DLCs to make one complete train"
     
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  29. w.lichko

    w.lichko Well-Known Member

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    Just want to add on...

    I believe most of the community wished to remove the add-on from SKA and add it to HMA, not HRR.

    No offense to those who really enjoy HRR, but for many, it's not the best german route out there and it's not extremely popular as well compared to HMA.

    Since the cab car isn't included and since layers are still an issue, it most likely means DTG has no intention of adding all of the IC services on HMA stopping/terminating at München Hbf, in the near future.

    That's a real shame because 6 IC&EC lines run through Augsburg and München (according to Wikipedia). The HMA and especially the München area has tons of IC traffic.
    Screenshot 2020-11-12 at 11.43.39.png

    Plus the 101 travels at its maximum speed for the majority of its journey on HMA. It would also add the possibility of the 182 occasionally substituting for the 101!
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
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  30. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Well not in the current Version. The BR 182 we have has no LZB. So either they equip the 182 from RT with LZB or the 182 coming with Hamburg - Lübeck substitutes for the 101 (ideally the 182 from HL comes with another red livery and not just the MRCE one but i doubt it)
     
  31. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    I think many do want to see it on Munchen-Augsburg yes, although I think everyone understands that including that many services may not be feasible. I would be happy to see 1-2 IC trains an hour max. But it's not only about this, it's also about future-proofing the DLC. They could release many other routes in future which the intercity trains could run on but because they never added a cab car they wouldn't be able to do it, meaning that many routes in future which could have intercity layers would not, so they'd be missing IC services which would make the route feel complete (as these services would make Munchen-Augsburg feel complete). It's not only about using a wrong formation but in essence avoiding earlier mistakes which will lead to further issues later down the line (excuse the train pun).
     
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  32. w.lichko

    w.lichko Well-Known Member

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    Well yes, assuming the current 182 will have LZB functionality added. The 182 included with Hamburg - Lübeck is a dedicated MRCE freight loco, I presume that loco has its own specifications and slight modifications. I fear changing the livery won't be enough. I may be wrong though.

    I asked Adam from the preservation crew on the forums and apparently, he is looking into it as well as the other LZB equipped locos. So there is a possibility :)
    Link: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/threads/update-concerning-lzb-for-preserved-locos.32378/
    Link: https://forums.dovetailgames.com/th...-lzb-to-preserved-db-locos.28913/#post-193823
     
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2021
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  33. 2martens

    2martens Active Member

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    IC services are not only connected with BR 101s. BR 120 is also used for some formations. BR 182 can be used as well. That's the charme of the waggons: you can combine them with various locos.

    Would be cool if we could combine the single loco with various consists in the scenario planner. Then everyone could mix and match to hearts content.
     
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  34. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    Yeah but this Loco neither exists in the game nor in the planning. What was your point? :D

    But yes, it would be awesome to have some kind of consists editor. You could then also simulate special drives like a BR 155 brining many IC waggons and Dostos together to some kind of yard. So basically a freight train with person waggons.
     
  35. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It would be cool to get the 101 on hma but without the cabcar, that simply can't happen. It makes sense that the 101 runs on HRR since it runs along that route in real life but HRR is not a well liked German Route due to how short it is and how quickly you can finish a Regional Express and S-Bahn service since your doing over 125 KM/H. IC services for that route in my opinion would be pretty much be useless in terms of gameplay time unless the route got a extension.
     
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  36. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I think that’s what people thought was going to happen, what DTG have done here is comparable to them not having the ICE on SKA, but putting one on HRR instead.

    The IC should be added to HMA regardless of cab car (though in my opinion they should pull the 101 DLC until they make the cab car) and just be put into a top + tail formation, then it should layer onto HRR along with the ICE.

    I have a feeling that the 101 is being put onto HRR because people feel that the ICE should be layered into it, and this is their solution.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Not any more. The 120s were retired last year.
     
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  38. 2martens

    2martens Active Member

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    I should have added some quotes to my post (see following). My point was to confirm that the IC rolling stock is not only connected to BR 101.

     
  39. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    ICE trains do run on HRR in real life but I really don't see the point of adding ICE services to HRR considering how short the route is
     
  40. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    Yes and no. It would travel at the top speed of the consist (200 km/h), but the loco itself can run at 220 km/h and has a couple of trainsets built for that (Metropolitan ICE - ironically these were actually (and maybe still are) used on HMA).
     
  41. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    encounter them on timetable, liven up the route with more variation!
     
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  42. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    And use the trains for a short period of time on a route that is short for the speeds for all of the trains as well. You can add variety to a route but hrr has little to offer in terms of length for all of those services hence why its not a popular route
     
  43. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    still fail to see how that affects me seeing an ice passing by in my S-Bahn on HRR as a negative point?
     
  44. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I never said it was a negative point
     
  45. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    When DTG delayed TSW2 to add a very important feature and very few of us minded, and most of us were happy they did that because it improved the game. I don't think many of us will mind it being delayed by a few months so we have the can car, because that would account for about 50% of the DLC. DTG could easily make a bit of money in the meantime - some scenario packs would work well, and we do need more scenarios in the game anyway...
    The Skyline R32 would like to have a word with you... :D

    Some Forza models are less detailed than ones from Gran Turismo 5 Prologue (2007)!
     
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  46. BinaryRun

    BinaryRun Active Member

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    I haven't been following the discussion, but in The Netherlands the BR 101 IC carriages to Germany drive without a cab car as well. Once it reaches it's destination, the pulling loc decouples and a different loc couples to the rear (now front) to pull the train on the return journey. So I don't see why having no cab-car means that we won't be getting the IC carriages.
     
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  47. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    I don't think anyone believes we won't be getting IC coaches. The point is that there are relatively few services without a cab car (and you are talking about international services), and it means it is not possible or realistic to have Deutsche Bahn intercity services on many TSW2 routes because there won't be a cab car.
     
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  48. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    They are not making it for many routes, they are making it for HRR alone, where the cab car isn’t needed to drive the services.

    As it is a loco DLC it won’t appear as a layer in any future routes or be included in any previous routes. There are no IC services in other routes for it to sub in for, so that doesn’t come into it either. In scenario planner you can only make a service in one direction from A to B, so again you won’t need the cab car. As much as anyone wants the cab car, where is DTG’s incentive to add it? As I stated earlier, people will buy this, cab car or not, and DTG know this.

    Just so there is no confusion this time, I am not defending DTG for doing it this way, just pointing out the facts of the situation from having experience of DTG releases in the past. For DTG’s plans for the release of the 101, there is no need to add the cab car, so they are not going to add it, nor are they going to cancel the release because of a handful of complaints on the forum.
     
  49. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    "handful" = over 60% of 120 people who would buy it won't buy it at release without a cab car (separate poll on separate thread), and before you say so I'm well aware that these forums might be seen as a microcosm of the whole community but that seems signifcant. How many people overall do you think buy TSW2 loco DLC at release in comparison to that poll size I'd wager not that many. Losing 60% of customers before even releasing a product is huge.

    Oh and again, since you're going to reiterate your statement I shall reiterate mine: one reason for these forums existing is to give feedback on existing or future dovetail games products, people obviously want to talk about this given the amount of threads on this... No reason for you to try and shut the conversations down.
     
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  50. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    At this point I could deal with the control car missing way better than to expect this loco to not appear ony any existing or upcoming route's timetable. ..
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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