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Settling The Br 101 Discussion

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by w.lichko, Jan 17, 2021.

  1. 2martens

    2martens Member

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    One of the major points for German routes and locos is that they are interchangeable. At some point in the future, I'd like to see a full service roster in TSW2 with all active ICEs (1, 2, 3, 3M, T), ICs (1 and 2), and a multitude of local services. That is why I will buy all German routes on locos. Not because I want to drive them all myself, but to have all the rolling stock and fill scenarios with them in a realistic manner.

    I would hope that DTG will add locos from loco DLC to future routes in the form of additional layers. That way, you can get additional value for the DLC.
     
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  2. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I mean at this point it's not like anyone is gonna use the full potential of the 101 or the cab car anyways on a route that is 22.6 miles and a IC service will get done in less than 30 minutes. It is unrealistic to not add the cab car because in real life, the cabcar would be there. Also people do have a right to voice their frustrations. If a cab car will hurt sales on this train then dtg have to blame themselves on that although according to them, loco dlc's don't tend to do well in terms of sales either so this just may hurt that even more. We will just have to wait and see.
     
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  3. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Half of those people who said in the poll that they won’t buy it because of no cab car will buy it anyway, also based on previous polls where people have said they won’t buy and then do so anyway, leaving around 40 people who won’t buy it because of that one issue. How will DTG bosses sleep at night knowing they went out of business because 40 or so sales were lost on one loco DLC because they didn’t include a cab car? The poll means next to nothing in real terms.
    Being more serious now. I’m not trying to close down the conversation, I’m joining in with it. When you come up with an argument that you won’t be able to use it realistically in lots of routes, I was pointing out that it isn’t being made for lots of routes, it’s being made for one route. That is a fact that some people are forgetting. One way biased conversations do nobody any good as they become echo chambers. Everybody would be thinking that DTG will change the DLC because they have posted on the forum. That’s just not the case.
     
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  4. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I often find that when someone accuses you of trying to shut a conversation down it is they who have that intention.

    I do think we should try and remember more often that we are not the only ones who are using TS or TSW and that presumably DTG have a far better idea of what sells and what doesn't.

    Since the days of Rail Simulator and DTG's predecessors at RSDL/RSC etc there have been oft repeated phrases, going back to around 2008:

    DTG are ignoring the user base/community/customers (delete appropriate)
    DTG will lose sales
    DTG will go bankrupt if they keep treating customers like this
    DTG should do "so and so" as no-one will buy this
    DTG are ripping us off again
    We keep telling them but DTG are ignoring us
    Everyone is angry at the way DTG are treating us

    Well they seem to be managing despite apparently upsetting everyone over the last 12 years or so.
     
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  5. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Oof. You got 'em.

    For that part at the end. Some of the community members can relay some information to the dev team to change small things before release, or to know not to do something for a future DLC.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  6. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    Wait, you assume that half the people who said they won't buy it in the poll will buy it anyway? Calling a poll of 100+ people worth nothing where we already know the sales of loco DLC are relatively low seems a bit strange. Where do you get this information from?

    I agree but they probably won't change it. But again what's the same point in having the opposite echo chamber where we all say "no point in discussing it guys, they won't change a thing"? Isn't that kinda the point of a forum?

    I also want to point out something you don't seem to get. Having no cab car isn't realistic for HRR either, it just happens that it could run the route without one.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  7. Richard CZE

    Richard CZE Well-Known Member

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    I'm one of those people who buy the DLC 101. I want IC wagons, because I can convert them into wagons of Czech railways. I don't need a driving car because it's not used here. But I agree that the driving car should be part of this DLC.
     
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  8. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    To think that the people will buy a dlc when they said they won't buy it in the poll stujoy makes no sense, Loco DLC sales are generally low anyways according to dtg
     
  9. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    The poll isn't worth talking about. It certainly is important in some ways, but the poll is very flawed in concept. As of Articuno's message, only 120 or so people have taken part in the survey. This is a survey that is obviously biased - the only 'correct' answer is to say that the lack of a cab car is a major error on DTG's part. The poll and the thread it is in is full of people who are angry about the lack of the cab car. Perhaps it's a case of a silent majority who don't mind, or perhaps a very loud majority who are passionate about this. It is highly likely that the only people who took part in the poll took part in it simply to express their frustration. The results do show that some people will not buy the DLC, but because of how few people (in the grand scheme of things) actually took part in the poll we can't be sure if the results (60% refusing to buy the DLC) reflect the majority of the player base or that it means nothing. If DTG asked everyone who plays Train Simulator or TSW/TSW2 if the lack of the cab car would affect their purchase of the BR101 DLC...
    • A large proportion of people would vote for not sure/don't care since they aren't affected by the lack of the cab car in any way. If there was no 'don't care' option you'd invalidate the entire survey, because there are many people who'd just pick random answers for the sake of answering the survey. In the cab car poll, I actually voted for no, not because I don't think the cab car matters, but because I don't care - I don't even have TSW2!
    • Out of the people who answer truthfully, there may be factors affecting their decision other than the binary cab car/no cab car issue. Perhaps they aren't interested in the BR101 anyway, or German trains in general. Maybe they weren't aware there was a cab car. Maybe they were put off by the £11.49 price. I wouldn't blame them...
    • And people might end up buying it anyway if they said they wouldn't, or they might not even though they said they would!
    If DTG were to include the cab car and not increase the price, sales would increase, mostly because of people who see the extra content they were looking for and decide to finally get it. If DTG increase the price, people will be angry that they're paying more money for what should have been in the DLC from the start. If they release the cab car separately, it may go down as one of DTG's worst decisions to date, up with reselling old DLC with less content (RSDL Class 08 anybody?) or selling the Class 91 DLC at all.

    We know that people do want the cab car, just some want it more than others.

    Me? As I said earlier, I'm not affected by the BR101 not having a cab car. I don't even own TSW2, and I don't plan to buy it anyway, because of the terrible performance on PS4, the broken Preserved DLC, how expensive the DLC is, the broken trophies that the developers outright refuse to fix and the lack of things to do other than meaningless collectables and repetitive services. But even with that, if DTG could have made the cab car and chose not to, I wouldn't be happy. The one thing I hate more than DLC that costs the same as the game it's for is half-baked DLC that will release whether it's ready or not.
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  10. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I don't like half baked dlc either and if they decided to not to make the cab car but could have done so, then that will get some people upset.
     
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  11. JonnE

    JonnE Well-Known Member

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    To be fair it makes at least a bit sense because their is indeed quite a chance that some will change their minds for whatever reason after release.

    But it leads me again to the question that why this all is accepted as the status quo? Why should it not be possible to release a DLC with a maximum amount of added gameplay - which in this case would include the cab car and services for ALL fitting routes (at least in timetable mode, no need for scenarios even if would be fine as well) and see how this sells in comparison to the other? If loco sales are so low why not try something different and really focus on the gameplay experience? I am sure it would sell very well and the lesser margin would be more than equalized. And even if not there is not so much effort and investment gone as in a bad selling route DLC (as oakville).

    Why should it not be possible to add services to more than one route? Only because it's not been realised before doesn't count.

    And it would really make a difference for immersion. You can't visit a larger german station without spotting ICs. As I was taking a short trip with my son further down the line of HMA recently we spottend more IC than regionals! And yes, all of them with a cab car... :D
     
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  12. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    Yes, I'd agree it isn't as high as 60% of people that wouldn't buy the DLC, but it could well be 30-40% don't you think? That's still relatively high. Alongside this, if people who don't understand it doesn't come with a cab car and then buy it, the DLC could then end up with bad reviews as a result, which will affect further sales.

    There are many broken things already in TSW2, which do need to be fixed. The roadmap is good for this, and we are actually seeing fixes come into the game. I played TS Classic for a long time, and I love it, but there are 10+ year old bugs, or half-baked DLC which were never fixed because they never bothered to do them, which are now impossible to fix because of the effects it would have on later content. I don't want the same thing to happen with TSW. I don't have a problem with DLC price, when the DLC is good quality, especially for Loco DLC where you're paying half the price of a route for a single loco. A lot of the DLC released since TSW2 has been really good like HMA, LGV and the DB BR 363, all worth the money in my opinion. I don't think releasing a train without the cab car to form a proper formation is quality, finished content worth half the price of a route, and also considering that this means intercity services can not be layered into future or present routes (RRO, HMA) where they are a very common sight.
     
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  13. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Negative reviews can hurt sales
     
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  14. DTG Protagonist

    DTG Protagonist Dovetail Special Projects Staff Member

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    The feedback regarding the cab car for the 101 has been received loud and clear.

    Any further topics on the subject will be locked as there is no need to spam the entire forum with duplicates of the same topic. Your enthusiasm is most appreciated, however if you could restrict that enthusiasm to a single topic, that'd be really helpful.
     
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  15. w.lichko

    w.lichko Well-Known Member

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    My sincere apologies, my intention of this thread wasn’t to spam the forum, but to actually conclude and settle the discussion and share my message positively. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  16. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I agree, we probabily won't change anything about the 101, but I hope future DLCs will be full trainsets with loco and cab car, if applicable (let's say we will get a class 68 + Mk5A, or the Mk3 and Class 90 with the Mk3 DVT).

    Also I though the loco was not on HMA because of the Cab Car, not the other way around, but anyway it doesn't change the point.

    Of course the minority of the people on the forum (which is a minority of the community) was upset about this, I still think the overall number of sales for the 101 will still be quite high, being THE german electric loco, although it's strange because HMA sold a lot better than HRR.

    I still believe not doing the cab car and putting the loco on HRR was the wrong thing to do, but if they decided to do it this way, it means it was the best option for DTG.

    I won't buy it because I know I wouldn't enjoy it, but if people will have fun with it then fine, I can live without a BR101 just like I lived before this whole thing was announced, but I still believe it was right to express our dissatisfaction towards a decision which feels wrong, but looking back this whole conversation it went a bit over the top ahahah
     
    Last edited: Jan 19, 2021
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  17. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    It will be very interesting for the people who are upset about this to hear the excuse as to why the cabcar is not included
     
  18. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    I would rather hear an excuse from some people why they are so toxic about this. I mean, if the DLC has the cab car, fine, if not, then just dont get it if you dont like it.

    And a developer does NOT have to find an "excuse" for not including something what hasnt been announced. The DLC is announced as BR 101 DLC and not as BR 101 + Cab DLC. So please calm down and dont get mad at DTG for the sake of your own expectations.
     
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  19. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    The users here would rather see it done right because this trainset is so ubiquitous and even the face of DB itself. The reason users are complaining about the lack of a cabcar is because it would be an injustice to the integrity of the IC trainset and services to go without. It's nearly synonymous with the DB BR 101 itself because they are rarely separated.

    It would be in poor taste (and extremely unrealistic for a game that aims to be a simulator) to release a DB BR 101 without its trainset. It's a strawman to suggest that any passenger locomotive would ever be released without the proper coaches, because the service set would be incomplete. Imagine trying to drive bidirectional RB services on MSB without the DB BR 766.2.

    Cheers
     
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  20. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    You mean the reason it isn’t included, not the excuse. You don’t have to frame everything so negatively.
     
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  21. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    Fun thing for MSB is that as of today you have BR 425 and Twindexx are running on MSB so you would have no problem on RB with that.

    Also: Yes, I personally think that a cab car HAS to be included in a BR 101 DLC with IC coaches. BUT: It is not on us to decide wether it will appear in the game in that way. Yes, we can be disappointed but I dont know why people are so massively annoyed about something not being in an even upcoming stage of the development process. Just let DTG do their work, remind them that a Cab Car would be a must have but please: Stop being toxic. Comments like Tallboy's are supporting the "These guys cant be satisfied and they dont want to be satisfied"-mindset.
     
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  22. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Community opinion has swayed the action of DTG numerous times, and the Roadmap provides us an opportunity to provide feedback about what we would like to see from upcoming content. The idea behind rallying for the cab car now is to try to sway development before things become too concrete. Of course, for something as massive as an addition as an entire function cab car would be, it is clearly something that the community cares about and would prefer to be done correctly the first time around. Even if it meant a significant delay to development (which it absolutely would), that is arguably better than the alternative.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  23. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    They never advertised or stated the cab car was even being considered. - they announced and have followed through on providing the 101 and the IC cars, nothing more, nothing less.

    Should they have included the cab car, that is another discussion, but to phrase the decision not to make the cab car as an excuse insinuates a very closed mind toward the discussion based on little to no information on the decision making process other than personal desire and feeding off the tenor of the forum discussion.
     
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  24. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    This discussion shouldn't really have been fixated on the fact that there will be no cab car coming with this DLC, but for many people this was a huge deal breaker. The final nail in the coffin for an addon that could have had great potential.

    From a consumers perspective, there is not a whole lot that makes this DLC attractive at all. Even if the BR101 itself is totally amazing with in-depth features and great sounds, etc. , there won't be a whole lot I can do with it. If I can only drive it on HRR...a short route without LZB functionality or a diverse service pattern...then whats the point? I want to be able to use this train for much more than just that.

    Yes, the whole focus of this DLC is the BR101 itself, but the issue is that its going to be woefully underutilized.
    Does it even make sense to sell it as its own loco DLC? A lot of the problems that arise in this discussion could easily have been fixed had it been included as a train that you get when you buy a route, that way it comes with its own unique layers and services, rather than substituting for one. Main Spessart Bahn is a perfect example of this, as its Dostos trains appear in basically every other German route in the game, making it a highly attractive addon.

    This whole thing is made worse by the fact that there is no cab car. As a result we get these janky workarounds that were proposed, such as a top-and-tailed configuration that is far from prototypical.

    While I still enjoy TSW and want to continue supporting it, this has been quite the disappointment. I was fully intending to aquire this DLC, but now I'm not as convinced anymore. That's the point I want to get across with this. They're driving away potential sales thanks to the lack of incentives to even buy this in the first place...Loco addons are already at a disadvantage for being a DLC of a DLC.
    They need to give us more than what's on the table right now.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  25. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I fully agree with this statement.
     
  26. mclitke

    mclitke Well-Known Member

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    Yes I personally want to distance myself from that. I wanted to show my disappointment and give feedback, regardless of whether it would change anything on this release or future ones. But never have I felt to need an excuse for their decision simply because there does not need to be one.
    DTG don't owe us anything, they are producing content and it is on our part to make the decision whether it it worth for us to buy it the way it is. We can only give feedback for their consideration.
    But to demand an excuse for their decisions seems a bit detached and childish if I am being honest...
    And even a reason instead of an excuse won't help much as it would not change anything
     
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  27. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    This is the problem, some on here don't want to consider the whys and wherefores which might negate their anger. When you start talking about costs of running a business and the time it takes to produce a piece of DLC and even the effect of the pandemic, they just put their fingers in their ears, because they don't want to have that discussion.
     
  28. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    This is true, but I feel this had been discussed, previous loco DLC packs had been produced with a similar amount of content like the baby bullet and the BR heavy freight pack, and it has also been stated on streams that covid has had a minimal amount of effect on the business, in fact many at the company were said to be as productive or more so when working at home. At times, of course, there has to be compromise when making DLC, but as SkyMutt wrote above, and what I was trying to put across, is that not including cab car has an affect on later produced content, and its an underutilization of the content essentially.

    I agree to use the word "excuse" is framing this negatively. I would like to point out that it was never stated or advertised that the intercity coaches would never be included either, the roadmap just states (and has always only stated) DB BR 101. I think it was assumed by many both IC coaches and cab car would be included as the vast majority of DB BR 101s are used with this formation in intercity services. Maybe there will be some clarification in the next roadmap as to what decisions have been made.

    In none of my messages have I said "DTG MUST DO X" in an entitled way, I've just given my feedback on why I feel it should be included (realism and underutilization of the content - to be succinct).

    Anyway DTG have said that this feedback has been received loud and clear, so I think it is best now to wait and see what happens, as I think most points of discussion have been discussed here and in the other threads.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  29. w.lichko

    w.lichko Well-Known Member

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    Let's all just settle down here. It's okay.

    At some level, we all would rather have the same thing, but it's not up to us. As outsiders, we have no clue of what the company is going through and the decisions they are forced to make. We simply cannot make any assumptions at all.

    Remember we're all friends and share the exact same passion, there is absolutely no need to downplay others and be negative.

    Let's all please put this insignificant poll discussion to bed as well,

    and stop basing arguments off of unknowns because not all details have been revealed yet and the add-on is definitely still in production. Just wait until the first article.

    We have addressed our message and DTG has received it loud and clear. So there's no real point in continuing anymore.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  30. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    But it has also been stated by DTG staff that the pandemic has had an impact on the ability to do research, hence the reason we are getting a repeat of TS1 routes in TSW.
     
  31. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    Please watch the last half hour-ish of the end of year Q & A here:



    They state the pandemic has had minimal impact (some impact on research but they could mitigate this), and that they actually already had references for DLC they were planning beforehand. There were already DLC for TSW released that had been released in train simulator before the pandemic, for example GWE and Ruhr-Sieg Nord. In fact there is so much content for TS classic that it is probably difficult for them to find completely new routes to do in TSW!

    If you don't want to watch it, read the last page of this document: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1iMgOk8ovmfNel5s0R6qhbGtD2mjkqwH9Jn5UnQs4KmY/edit

    I think this will be the last message I respond to on these topics, because as I already stated I feel all the points had already been discussed, and because DTG Protagonist stated that the feedback has been heard loud and clear, I'm not trying to avoid any conversation but at this point it's best to wait and see what happens.
     
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  32. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well they have said the pandemic had an impact on research at some point. They state in the document that


    • "Did the vision of TSW2 change due to the pandemic?
      • I don’t think so. We were fortunate that we already had a reference of routes"
    That suggests they didn't need to do any research as they already had the reference material, that doesn't say the pandemic hadn't had an effect. Maybe they were planning to make those routes in the first place, I had got the impression they were making those routes as they hadn't been able to research, maybe I have got the wrong end of the stick. Since TSW appeared many of the routes hadn't appeared in TS1 it seems odd that suddenly there is a tranche of duplicate routes, but that looks to be what they had decided according to that document.

    Anyway we are just going round in circles and off topic.
     
  33. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Now the feedback has been heard loud and clear, I'd hope that DTG take this feedback into account and amend their plans.

    I was initially really excited for the 101, but the limited use on HRR and the lack of a cab car has turned it from a day 1 purchase to a wait for a heavy discount purchase.
     
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  34. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with this statement as well. I do believe they may lose potential sales because of this decision. The excuse (or "reason" for people who are so sensitive these days) as to why the cabcar won't be included since in real life a db br 101 would have ic coaches and the cabcar will most likely be a justifiable one
     
  35. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    It is a question of meaning, by using the word excuse, you are suggesting they have done something wrong or gone against something they said they were going to do and now they are trying to mitigate or justify that wrong doing.

    Reason has a completely different meaning.
     
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  36. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    Excuse and reason are pretty much the same thing. In the united states and nyc that is.
     
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  37. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Easier solution: take the existing 146/Dostos/766, paint it white with a red stripe and call it an IC2.

    Hey, if it worked for Deutsche Bahn....
     
  38. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    This is true.
     
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  39. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    BS - words matter — never in the US have i exchanged or construed the word ‘excuse” to mean the same as “reason”. nice try
     
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  40. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    I assume you don't live in nyc. Look people come from different parts of the world and country so of course we are gonna use words differently. That's just human nature. One word may mean something different in your culture or homeplace to another. Get used to it because it is what it is
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  41. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I agree with the fact DTG doesn't owe us anything, but that doesn't mean it's not interesting to hear the reasons behind some decisions that might appear "odd", especially things that might seem "trivial" to do from our outsider prospective, and also would give an interesting insight of how the game works or how they prefer to develop some aspects of the game, but surely saying it's "waiting to hear the excuse" is the worse possible way to frame it because they don't have to excuse anything :D
     
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  42. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    No, I have been a military officer and have managed large organizations. If one of my subordinates tried to tell me an excuse was the same as a reason, they would be looking for another job regardless of where they came from.

    In a written medium, such as these forums, one must be aware of and particular in their word choice for the very reasons you specify. I will not “get use to it” as you suggest, but would hope one such as yourself might take a subtle hint to avoid future misunderstandings. I also taught in my leadership classes, when you find yourself in a hole - stop digging.

    best
     
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  43. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    This, I do agree with. There are people from many different places in these forums, not everyone understands slang or a certain meaning from one specific place.

    Just like when I said “mad” a few weeks ago. The New York slang for A Lot. People thought I meant mad, as in Upset/Angry.

    In NYC, where I am from, Excuse and Reason are commonly interchanged words.
     
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2021
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  44. grob-e

    grob-e Well-Known Member

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    Not really. It´s quite a shame, they called it InterCity, they would have better called it "langlaufender Eilzug".
     
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  45. Monder

    Monder Well-Known Member

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    I agree with grob-e, IC2 can go burn in hell. That is a joke of InterCity being slower and way less comfortable than the normal IC.
     
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  46. Swisstrains

    Swisstrains Well-Known Member

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    Could someone please tell me when and what was said about the IC cab car?
     
  47. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Money grab by DB. First they kill off the Interregio, then they revive it in white paint with higher ticket prices.

    The "Intercity" brand has fallen a long way from 1971, when it was DB's flagship luxury service.
     
  48. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    On Matts personal stream, a few days ago, someone asked about the route choice for the 101, Matt then said that it wouldn’t work on HMA without top and tail services since it didn’t come with the cab car, thus leading to the commotion on the forums.

    The part where he said it wouldn’t work on HMA without a top and tail seems to have been mis-interpreted as “it will come in top and tail consists”.
     
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  49. Mikeboy

    Mikeboy Active Member

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    The lack of a cabcar is really disappointing, given they've been using the same bit of coaching stock for every German route so far I think it's not unreasonable to want to see a cab car when we finally get something new (that is having to paid for separately to a new route).
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2021
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  50. 7orenz

    7orenz Well-Known Member

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    I hope that the BR 101 will be released with the idea of adding a new route in the future (like Frankfurt-Koblenz?) in which the CabCar will also come (again in the future DLC / Add-on). Having the BR 101 only on old routes without LZB personally I see it as a leap backwards. A sort of trivialization of a very important loco / train, a masterpiece of the German railway.

    If it were just a layer problem, it would be enough to remove the BR 146 RE services and replace them with the BR 101 IC services (assuming they add CabCar in the future).
     
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