Should Just Trains Cover Steam Locomotives In Tsw?

Hello,
Just Trains have currently released 2 routes for TSW which both have had a very positive reception with players and with their first loco DLC sparking a ton of excitment with players, I have wondered if they should cover steam locomotives when/if they make their return. I don't play Train Simulator but I am aware that their TS steam engines aren't regarded as the best in the world but their TSW locos have been very good to look at and drive so what do you think?

 

They are onto a winning combo at the moment.
I would not look to change that, especially with the simugraph issues reported with steam.
If I was financially invested in the game I'm producing, like JT, I'd probably be using a barge pole as separation.

 

It think it needs DTG to get someone on board (talking staff) and be willing to pay them for months of work to try and work out it's issues.

Think it's been underestimated how many people enjoy steam traction, so think it's a massive income stream for them if they can sort it.
Expect there are quite a few 3rd parties that would go for it, if it was fixed, too.

 

No!

 

Whoever takes on steam (it might already be happening), I would be happy (for now) to forget the physics and just have the locos in a state where they are just ready to drive. I know some people would like a super realistic driving/firing (with steam management) experience but for some we’d just like to have a larger selection of locos to choose from as the ones we have so far are fun to drive and take screenshots of etc but the lack of choice is frustrating when there’s so many cool locos we could have.

 

Unfortunately JT said steam was borked and they wouldn't touch it as is

 

Desirable as it might be, got to agree with the majority - No.

Dig in and focus on what they are doing best - 80’s Classic BR traction and routes.

 

Which majority are you talking about?

 

Honestly I hope they double down on this North-Western, BR 80s network.
It'd be amazing to be able to do a run from Manchester (maybe even Leeds counting NTP) or Crewe to Carlisle/Blackpool, or from Preston to Glasgow

The improved 47, the 142, 87 and upcoming 86 are a pretty solid base, on top of the already decent BR Diesels in-game.

I wouldn't mind JT going modern but I'd much prefer they make use of what they've made so far. Steam is broken in TSW and JT should push on with what works, imo.

 

As much as I want JT to maybe redo steam, it’s not possible. The physics are too scuffed, I also believe JT have mastered diesel/electric BR content.


I’m going with the majority, no.

 

Again, which majority? You can’t say majority unless you have data to back that up. People ask for more steam locos regularly on the suggestions page.

 

doesn’t change the fact that steam locos aren’t in active development right now, and most likely never will be again.

it was confirmed by Matt himself in a roadmap stream, there is no active development going on for steam.

im sorry, but steam is dead.

 

Which roadmap stream? I’ve had this discussion before where someone has said it was said on this thread or that thread but can never actually back that up with a link to the said source.

 

56 minute mark, if it hasn’t already been marked

 

As much as I would love more steam locos, they will always come second to some BR Blue! Not only that I think JT have seen the state of steam and said there would be no point in them trying to get it fixed. DTG must go back and at least fix the core, even if they can't be arsed making more DLC, as frankly the state it has been left in is appalling.

 

Thank you. They didn’t explicitly say ‘steam is dead’ though, I’d say that is very much open for third parties if they really want to have a go at taking it on.

 

It’s just corpo speak for saying it is dead by hedging. The trouble with the 3rd parties line is that they seemingly want to stay far away from steam in TSW (understandably so) because DTG can’t be bothered to fix the core. We’ve had a firm no from at least two major studios (Victory Works and JT) with this exact reasoning. In my opinion, DTG should just sit down and finish what they started. As matt#4801 said, even if they have no interest in further steam content development, they should at least bring it up to a standard that lets 3rd parties produce content.

 

The core they need to fix is the physics, that is the problem, but they could for now bypass that and give us more steam where the experience is of that where you’re purely focusing on driving without the steam/boiler pressure and fire management aspect. Some have said ‘the majority’ don’t want steam but believe me there are loads of us who do and would be happy with what I propose just to get more choice and include some of the iconic locos that deserve to be on the sim.

 

I would rather the current system be used, than that. Managing the pressure is a key aspect of driving a steam loco, and you may as well drive a much more realistically made diesel.

 

The fire and boiler pressure management is what makes the steam locos more challenging and fun to operate. Otherwise it's just a steam shell with diesel/electric physics.

Edit: Matt beat me to it.

 

Well yes I would accept that too, with automatic firing mode as default.

 

But they can’t do it right now, so a compromise should be met in my opinion. I may be wrong but I am sensing pushback on this mostly from people who’s primary interest is diesel/electric traction and aren’t interested in steam anyhow.

 

I could see them covering the badger.

 

Maybe new steam locos could have a simplified cab layout, with just the one handle for regulator/brake/headlights/injector/windscreen wiper/whistle/DVD/VHS/change ends/cold start/pantograph/reverser/hot plate/blue screen crash/ combo. All set on automatic.

 

Haha.
The class 89, that badger.

 

Actually it’s the opposite - most of the people pushing back on your suggestion are people who love steam and are actively trying to make the best of the current TSW steam offering by placing self-imposed restrictions on the way the loco is driven (taming it’s over-performance) in the “Steam - A Realistic Challenge” thread.

The point they are making - which I also agree with - is that ignoring the physics and just making more steam locos with inaccurate physics, is not the way forward. The most interesting thing about steam is the physics, and the need to manage the boiler pressure carefully throughout the journey - something you do not get with diesels/electrics.

I think for DTG to release more steam locos without fixing the issues would be pretty disingenuous. In my opinion even the current ones - still on sale - should have a warning stating that they are not intended to have realistic physics, so that people know what they’re buying. The Scotsman and 2F particularly are just ridiculous (odd, incidentally, that DTG have got gradually worse at re-creating steam loco physics, with each loco released being noticeably worse than the last).

 

The majority in the thread so far who felt it would be a mistake for JT to start meddling with steam, if at the cost of the classic diesel stuff. Of course if they do end up with a guru on their staff who can make it work then I’m all in favour, never said I don’t want them to do steam traction, period.

 

Get upto speed, set the regulator and the reverser to the same position as always, sit back do nothing! I would say it's just a glorified diesel engine but I think the diesels are more challenging to drive.

No firebox to keep an eye on. No water level to keep an eye on. And physics that seem like they've come straight outta roblox.

As much as I like steam. No thanks.

 

If you want a real steam challenge, try the Smokebox Big Boy in TSC on expert mode, or the New Zealand steamers where you have to control the lube oil feed along with everything else and it will seize up if you run out! Doesn’t leave much time to watch the scenery or even keep an eye on the signals!

Or the Bossman and Victory steamers in TSC for that matter too, if you disable all the driver aids.

 

That's exactly what I mean vern. Tsw your watching the scenery go by whilst the engine is basically in autopilot.
Tsc you are constantly doing something to keep the engine in motion.
You have to plan ahead. Like as you approach a grade you have to make sure you have the right amount of water in the boiler and coal in the firebox to maintain pressure to make it up the grade.
Forget to activate the blower and back off the regulator as you enter a tunnel, game over.

I haven't tried the new Zealand steamers yet. I will look into them later. Thanks.

 

Personally I hope JT stick with what they are doing. We have little BR traction compared to modern traction. I would love to see the likes of BMG or VW get involved with TSW but I doubt they will with steam in it's current state. I think VW has said as much. Would they get support from DTG if they did.

The parlous state of steam is obvious for all to see. I can see simrail getting some effective steam content before TSW gets any more. How would it look if someone like VW made a working UK steam period route for simrail whilst TSW has effectively hardly any (and what there is is poor) representation of this major part of railway history. A well done steam route whether a ten mile GWR branchline with a pannier tank or a 50 mile mainline could be epic in TSW.

Why wouldn't you want to see it represented in your sim?

 

For me this would be great, but dtg left steam in a very messy / broken state.

So if jt should go with steam, then a small route like the maerdy branch with 1 saddletank to focus on the steam core and probably start from scratch with firing and the physics.

 

I was trainspotting at Preston last night (on the Carlisle route) when a steam special arrived hauled by a Jubilee. I felt quite sorry for it, it's diesel and electric companions were going about their business with appropriate sound effects but the poor thing sat there in silence. I got on the footplate and turned the big ejector and blower on just to make some noise. The signal changed and it slunk silently out of the station. Very sad and I realised why, despite being a dyed in the wool steam fan, I rarely visit the Liverpool and Buxton routes. The almost complete silence of the AI locomotives is an absolute immersion killer. I believe we were told that sounds would come but of course they didn't and now we know they never will. Very poor show in my opinion.

 

Yes it is fairly disgraceful that they left steam in that way. It will spoil the class 104 pack when it releases.

 

I don't think that anyone here is saying that Steam shouldn't be developed at all, and I certainly wouldn't say that either. There are two things being said here.

The first, the core physics and simulation are what is broken, and so no third party will be able to do much better of a job than can already be found on the Stanier locos (the better examples, as the 4f and Scotsman are even worse) and it can only be up to DTG to improve the physics in order to change that. But they have flat out said that they won't do that. Only they can touch the core, they have said that they won't, and that statement still stands as they haven't said a single peep on the subject ever since.

The second, if a third party does come in and make steam content, it should not be JustTrains. They have found an incredible place developing 80s content with diesel and electric, this has become their niche which they should only continue to double down on. It is the same story for TSG developing historic German and now Austrian content. You wouldn't question if TSG should step over the channel and develop a Class 70, no matter how in demand an alternative to the 66 might be, because Germany is where their skills lie and it's where they belong. The same exact thing applies here to JustTrains.

In short, yes, I do think that a third party dev should come in and make new steam engines. You never know, bringing the popularity of them and their market demand back up may well encourage DTG to take another look at their physics. But it should be a new one, not JT.

 

From everything I see that's usually the dead opposite, your most vocal critics are often people who have been long time fans of the thing they're voicing concerns on. Look at modern Star Wars, a lot of people who hate everything past a certain point often are huge fans of at least the OG trilogy, quite a few prequel fans too. Same thing with the live action Disney remakes and Disney sequels, it's the diehard Disney fans who take most issue with them, not the average joes. I could go on with probably dozen of examples both from what I've seen, and what I myself am interested in, but I think that's fair enough.

 

It's a pattern that gets repeated everywhere there's something that lasts for longer than a certain time. Star Wars, Star Trek, Doctor Who, Disney, Marvel, the list goes on. If something reaches the point where it has lasted long enough and its formula isn't one that is going to constantly remain relevant or in high numbers, it has to reinvent itself, it has to evolve. At that point it attracts new fans who like the new iteration but perhaps not the old one, and likewise there will be older fans who dislike the new direction. You eventually reach a crossroads where you can either continue to appeal to your limited number of old fans, or continue to evolve into an ever expanding market of new fans, a seemingly endless pool of income for as long as you can reinvent the thing in question to keep it relevant and interesting. Naturally in such a marketplace, the vast majority of products or franchises out there choose to evolve. Hence we get the sequel trilogy, Star Trek Discovery, modern Doctor Who, live action remakes of the Disney classics, ect. And in TSW's case, as BR Blue continues to become evermore distant history, it makes sense why DTG would limit themselves to modern content only, because this is what the newer market is familiar with and wants to see. This is why for people like ourselves who appreciate history, we need third parties like JT to keep doing what they do best.

 

I'm going to go with no, JT are onto a winning formula and any attempt to make a Kettle based on current technology available would certainly undo some of that goodwill.

Though I'd love to see a Great Western Engine one day.

 

Nicer looking than the original

 

One day, I would love to see a Q1 "Biscuit tin" in TSW, but it's anybody's guess as to when steam will come back, or which developer will be behind it.

Live in hope, or die in despair.

 

I don't really know why people are complaining so much about the current state of TSW steam.. All I wish is that the boiler pressure was rose at a more slower pace and that the safety valves acutally helped lower the boiler pressure

 

Honestly if they're not going to mess with the physics they could at least fix the state of the routes as a start. Like no B&C coaches in timetable, no loaded conoflats in timetable, no AI sounds, no custom liveries in timetable. Like all of those were big features that were sold as features when selling the routes and low and behold. Also variable difficulties including manual firing which was another big selling point. Also hearing was VW was planning for the editor (Hayling island and A1s) I would've absolutely loved as a small steam route so DTGS lack of support there also shot that in the foot

Let alone the actual state of the physics.
The whole subject makes me angry lol. But I'd rather JT keep doing what they're doing because they're smashing it at the moment.

 

They have left SOS with a poor timetable, a tranche of local services are missing, plus there is nothing like the variety a route like that would have had in that period. The AI steam trains don't have sound which is incredibly immersion breaking. They built steam up, they talked about possible DLC and then decided they were going to just abandon it having not fixed the issues with it and left one piece of DLC feeling like, to me at any rate a waste of money. I have bought into the steam project thinking that it would be developed alongside more modern traction and we would have a simulator with a good spread of old and new.

I am usually a glass half full person when it comes to TSW as I enjoy it and have been like many others a loyal supporter but I do feel that DTG have let down those of us who want to see historic content like steam.

If I knew what was to happen after the fanfare which was SOS, I wouldn't have bought it.

 

SoS is worth having for the railtours on other routes. I did a railtour timetable run with the jubilee from Carlisle to Preston (approx 1:30 journey) earlier. Genuinely Loved it from start to finish.

 

something like the big boy is not controlled by 1 person in real life anyway
i do not own that steamer in Train Simulator Classic yet
so i do not now if you can set helpers in controls or have to do all the work yourself
it is on my wishlist to buy

Inside the Cab of Big Boy 4014 - Sheldrake Press

 

It's only worth it if you find the engines in themselves worth driving, and anyone who's vocal poor quality of steam likely don't feel that way.

Realistically a driver would not be doing things like climbing up to load oil tankers like in Oakville either. I'm also not sure if a real life driver would nessicarily be asked to throw their own switches as often as TSW makes you do. Simple fact is TSW has always been flexible in regards to being willing to bend reality, both in favor and against what a real life driver would be assigned to do. Plus even if that was somehow a issue as conductor mode shows it's entirely possible to make new modes entirely independent of driving.

 

I am glad you enjoyed it. They would have been better off using the Rivet steam locos.

SOS was supposed to be a 1950's steam period route something we hadn't had, a route that completed the circle regarding types of propulsion in railway history, horse drawn and gas turbines aside. I didn't buy it to provide layers onto future routes. The locos are wrong for rail tours anyway as they aren't in a preserved condition.

The only use SOS has now as far as I am concerned is for the wagons which are used on the Shap route which means I would have happily paid £5 for it. I paid £25 for something which feels incomplete and which I haven't touched for a couple of years and am unlikely to again.

 

Yes JT are on a roll at the moment, don't see how it would benefit anyone for them to change era and traction types. I am quite happy that they are proving that BR does sell.

 

I am still hoping for North Wales Coast (Class 25) and Highland Main Line (Class 26) in 2025!