Signals And Aws On Ecw

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by Cramnor, Jun 6, 2021.

  1. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    I was running some of the empty rolling stock runs on ECW today (btw, highly recommended, some nice runs with adverse signals :) )

    One thing I ran across a couple of times in these runs were green signals that had an AWS warning (the one you get from adverse signals). I was wondering if that is prototypical behavior? All of these signals only had one lamp, i.e. they cannot show a double yellow. When I encountered the green signals with the AWS warning, the next one after was yellow and the one after that red. Is this a sort of workaround for signals that are not able to show a double yellow?

    Thanks for your help :)
     
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  2. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    There are a couple of Morpeth boards warning of an upcoming decrease in line speed with accompanying AWS warnings that are very close to signals on ECW, so could it be these and not actually the AWS warnings for the signals?
     
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  3. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    No, it was not for the Morpeth boards, there were none around, it was with the signals, and it was in at least two different places. And, places where on the "normal" all green runs I don't get the AWS warning :)
     
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  4. Northerner

    Northerner Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure then, I can't think of any reason why there would be a warning for a green, but someone else may know why or it may just be a bug.
     
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  5. Kim1087

    Kim1087 Active Member

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    did you reload the game from a save point?
     
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  6. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Nope, fresh game, happened in multiple runs :)
     
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  7. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    It’s for “repeater” or “relate” signals, so if the home or main signal is showing a yellow aspect it will reflect in the repeater aspect, not strictly correct but that’s the representation in the game.
     
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  8. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    So it is not prototypical and I can consider this signal as green, i.e. no need to do anything (apart from acknowledging AWS of course :) )
     
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  9. Shaun123

    Shaun123 Well-Known Member

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    So the signal sequence you got was correct, the AWS warning is not! On the railway that is considered a AWS “Code 2” right side failure.
     
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  10. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Great, thanks for the info :)
     
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  11. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I've noticed this behaviour too. A repeater signal (look at the board under the signal to determine what type of signal it is) is green unless the main signal is on red. I doubt this is typical on the UK railways, I would expect repeater signals to be yellow unless the main signal is green!
     
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  12. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    If the stop signal associated with the distant is yellow, then the distant would be a green. There’s nothing wrong with that unless the distant also acts as an outer distant signal in which case it should show two yellows.

    If the stop signal can a show yellow then that’s essentially a combined distant and stop signal or it’s a transition to 3/4 aspect signalling.
     
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  13. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Just ran 2N15 on GCC, when coming Muirend, the same happens, there is a green - single yellow - red sequence, where AWS triggers also at the green signal....
     
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  14. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Is the green a distant for the yellow or a standalone signal?
     
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  15. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    That service exists three times btw, lol :D

    To your question, it seems to be a distant signal, I get the following sequence:
    20210611173201_1.jpg 20210611173220_1.jpg 20210611173236_1.jpg
    For all of the signals, the AWS is active and needs to be acknowledged.
     
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  16. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    If you look at the sign under the first signal it's a distant signal for the second (as shown by the up arrow), so the AWS is to signal that the next main is going to be anything other than "clear"
     
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  17. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    So it is not going to be red (otherwise the distant would be yellow) and it is not going to be green (since the AWS is active), aka it will be yellow? Is that the idea behind how this works, and therefore prototypical behavior and I should treat it like a double yellow in that case?
     
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  18. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Yup
    Yup
    Well, only if you know that you're on a four light signalling section and the signal BEFORE wasn't a double yellow
    If the signal before was a double yellow or you're on three light signalling then the next would or could be a single yellow. Either way you have a minimum of one signal left before a signal at danger so slow down a bit
     
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  19. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    No, that’s not correct. You should not have received an AWS warning at the green signal. The only thing the distant signal is concerned about is whether or not the next signal section is clear. In other words, is the next stop signal it applies to (in this case GC 5063 signal) on or off. As it is off (yellow signal), distant will be green. The AWS magnet should correspondingly be clear at the distant signal. There is no way the AWS can differentiate what is happening at any signal but it’s own and nor is there any need to because there is sufficient braking distance from the single yellow to the red. If there wasn’t, as I was explaining earlier, they would make the distant signal an outer distant signal instead, denoted by RR instead of single R on signal identification plate where you would get two yellows.
     
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  20. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    Just in case you’re curious as to when you could get an AWS warning at a green signal in real life:
    1. There is a fault. The AWS is a fail safe system so the fact you’ve got a warning instead of a clear indication isn’t a huge issue as it is a right side failure- in other words, fail safe. It should be reported at the first convenient opportunity. As Shaun mentioned, it’s fault code 2 on the RT3185 form. If it was the other way around where you expect a warning indication but you get a clear indication, it’s a lot more serious because it’s a wrong side failure and needs reporting a lot more urgently.
    2. There is an associated TSR or ESR warning board. If there is a temporary or emergency speed restriction and they have placed the warning board at the signal itself, they will disconnect the electromagnet part of the AWS such that you will always get a warning even if the signal is green.
    3. The signal changes as you pass over the AWS. As you’re approaching the AWS magnet, the signal steps up from yellow to green but the AWS gives you a warning. This is fine because it takes a few seconds for the electromagnet part of the AWS to energise and if you’re literally just about to pass the AWS as the signal steps up, there isn’t enough time for this to happen and you’ll get an AWS warning. (The AWS comprises of two parts- the electromagnet is what causes you to get a clear indication, the permanent magnet is what causes you to get a warning indication)
    In colour light signalling, if you get a warning indication at a green signal when you’re not expecting one, you can disregard it and still treat the signal as a green signal. However, with semaphore signalling in absolute block areas, if you were to get an AWS warning at a distant semaphore signal which is showing clear, you must treat the signal as a caution and be prepared to stop at any of the stop signals it applies to unless either number 2 or number 3 apply in the list.
     
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  21. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    So I just assume the game is simulating number 1 :) Thanks :)
     
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  22. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Or the dev team got it wrong and the AWS at the repeater is repeating what the AWS at the main is doing rather than reflecting what the distant signal is doing... Olaf the Snowman has clearly said what happens IRL, but the game is doing something else...
     
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  23. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    That's most certainly what happened :D Wouldn't be the first time. But for for the sake of playing, assuming an AWS failure is a more immersive way of treating it :)
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    As with any given "system" learning how it works (rather than how it should) is how I work so for me I see it as I said above, the AWS means the main signal is at something other than green (even if the repeater says green)

    How you interpret it is up to you, but I think we're both knowing it's "not right". Maybe they'll fix in future
     
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  25. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Another question to the signal experts here :)
    What is the purpose/functionality of this signal (when leaving Glasgow on GCC, shortly before the junction at Pollokshields East):
    20210613194133_1.jpg
    From my understanding, this signal would show in simple words what is applicable for trains going to the left and right at the next junction. So if I go into Pollokshields East (which is the case here), the left signal applies to me, if I would go into Pollokshields West (or actually the line that splits of before splitting off again into Pollokshields West and the other line) the right signal applies to me. However, first of all, there is another signal before the actual junction, which seems odd to me, I would have not expected another signal before the junction, only after it.
    20210613194207_1.jpg
    Secondly, how can both signals be green? From where I am, it seems weird that on both splitting routes the signals would be set to green. Actually, in the above sequence, there is a repeater shortly after the intersection, showing two upcoming reds for the lines going to the right, although previous signal from the first shot was green, hence at least a yellow should be upcoming:
    20210613194236_1.jpg
    Thanks to those reading and taking the time to explain :)
     
  26. Olaf the Snowman

    Olaf the Snowman Well-Known Member

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    It’s a splitting distant signal. It’s similar to the splitting distant on GWE just beyond West Drayton which I explained in another thread and have attached below. The splitting distant gives an advance indication of what is happening at the junction signal so it is perfectly correct that you have another signal before the junction.

    There shouldn’t be green on both heads, only the left one should be green and the right one should be single yellow. So it’s an error by DTG. As you’ve said, essentially whichever one is showing the least restrictive aspect is the route that you will be taking. The two heads on the splitting distant has a ‘main’ head and a ‘side’ head. The side head is offset and lower than the main head and this is because it is not the main route. The different combinations that you could get at this splitting distant signal is as follows:

    1. Left head: unlit; Main head: Red. Meaning: Stop (Even though this is a splitting distant, it is still a stop signal so the main head can show red. The one on GWE cannot show red)
    2. Left head: unlit; Main head: Yellow. Meaning: Junction signal is at danger so be prepared to stop at the next signal.
    3. Left head: Yellow. Main head: Double Yellow. Meaning: Junction signal is displaying a single yellow and you are being routed “straight.”
    4. Left head: Yellow. Main head: Green. Meaning: Same as 3 as in you’re being routed “straight.” But junction signal is displaying green. What makes these 2 signals confusing is that it is also a transition from 4 to 3 aspect signalling. The splitting distant is 4 aspect but the junction signal is 3 aspect. If they were both 4 aspect and the splitting distant was showing green, the junction signal could be showing no less than 2 yellows. As it’s 3 aspect, the junction signal can only be showing green. It can’t show a single yellow otherwise the splitting distant would have been 2 yellows as described in 3.
    5. Left head: Double yellow. Main head: Yellow. Meaning: Junction signal is displaying a single yellow and you are going across the junction so junction indicator will be lit.
    6. Left head: Green. Main head: Yellow. Meaning: Same as 5 as in you’re being routed across the junction. Junction signal will also be displaying green.
    Two greens doesn’t make any sense- that’s like having 2 junction indicators lit.
    Splitting distants are generally not very common because you usually get flashing yellows and/or PRIs instead. As I’ve said, it’s made even more complicated by the fact that the splitting distant is also a stop signal so you can get a red as well as the fact that it’s a transition from 4 to 3 aspect signalling which is confusing as of in itself.

    With regards to the banner repeaters, you can ignore this because you should never have got two greens at the splitting distant signal. I’ve attached diagrams of the area in question.

    You even posted on the thread I wrote this :)
    0EF27A92-F48C-42A9-8C95-411810E1A8B0.jpeg

    5162FB85-AE98-45D4-A379-EDFDC8D4BB5D.jpeg
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2021
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  27. Cramnor

    Cramnor Well-Known Member

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    Thanks a lot :)
    Yes I know the one on GWE, but this one made me wonder if I got the correct understanding - which seems like I did partly xD thanks :)
     
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