Simrail 2021 Vs Tsw2

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by arapajoe3, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. keksman

    keksman Well-Known Member

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    Ur contradicting urself lol if it actually legally works like how you described it what stops dtg from releasing a map editor in the same way they released the livery editor without official means to share them?

    Ahhh there it is the usual "dont like it, dont buy it" arguement to shut up any criticism or call out on stupid things said by devs
     
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  2. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I mean people can complain about it all they want, but it isn't going to change the situation. DTG has been clear there's never going to be a public editor.
     
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  3. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    So what is your problem then? Some are here complaining about it (including me) if it irritates you that much then read another thread.

    And someone said DTG won't release an editor because DTG say it would cause licensing issues. If I said I could turn blood into wine would you believe me too?
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
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  4. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Nothing, they just haven't done it. It's the means to share it that's the point here
    If you could please point out where I told you to shut up...
    I didn't. Complain all you like, but you might as well take a whizz in the wind for all the good it will do. DTG have made their decisions and they can either change them (unlikely) or just leave you moaning...
     
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  5. Disintegration7

    Disintegration7 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not irritated at all- you're free to complain all you'd like.

    To me, personally, it doesn't matter what DTG's reasons are, or even whether they're true- a public editor isn't happening, so i just prefer to spend my energy on other topics.
     
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  6. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Difference is that if you turned blood into wine you wouldn't get cease and desist orders from the wine companies. We already know there are license issues with various train companies where DTG have had to pull content on TSC, so it stands to reason there would be on TSW as well
     
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  7. keksman

    keksman Well-Known Member

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    No its not? Its about the existence of an editor who they have abandoned and justified this decision with a dumb reason lol thats how we started the discussion
    Do you even realize what you are typing? You are pretty much telling me and everyone else who criticise anything dtg does how its a waste of time to do that because "DTG have made their decisions and they can either change them (unlikely) or just leave you moaning...". You do understand what the purpose of a forum is right?
     
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  8. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    They have been forced to abandon issuing the editor, that much should be obvious.

    People are trying to help you not waste your time. It isn't coming out, but not due to lack of demand...I would suggest they are as frustrated as you are. It is well known that editors help the lifespan and interest in games and empower the playerbase.
     
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  9. keksman

    keksman Well-Known Member

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    Thats not how the discussion started in the first place but if you say it like that sure I agree. Pointless to criticize dtg in anything as they dont care as long as people keep buying dlc after dlc. The discussion started about their given reasoning being dumb and its still funny to me how you guys seriously believe that they were forced to abandon the map editor when they are just about to release a second version of the livery editor lol
     
  10. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    We're talking about two different legal situations here, really. There will never ever be a world/map editor, purely because providing someone on PC or console the access to an editor within the Unreal Engine (remember, UE is property of Epic Games), can potentially land them in hot waters with Epic. Letting people cook and uncook and do all sorts of things to content within UE and TSW would be a legal nightmare (i.e. there's potentially some UE vulnerabilities here that anyone who buys a copy of TSW can exploit. There's a whole load of issues it can bring). TS Classic could get away with an editor because it wasn't using Unreal, it was using their own proprietary engine.

    In the case of Livery Designer, it's not that Epic Games will come after you, it's that now you have train companies and manufacturers coming after you. Now it's a different ballgame. It's likely that they won't care, because after all, it's just a train game. But as soon as one of them becomes aware of what's going on, and doesn't like having their intellectual property being distributed, then DTG can get sued because they'll be hosting this content. And once one company does this, then other companies will too.
    That's why Livery designer is soo locked down, because now DTG is very much navigating through a legal minefield. One wrong step can cause one huge explosion.
    Actually, they just might set off all the other mines as well.

    Either way, if you really think about it, it doesn't make much business sense to keep third-party content out of something like TSW.
    The whole reason TS Classic is still popular to this day is purely because of third-party content.
    It would phenomenal if DTG could recreate the success of TS Classic with TSW. But they can't, all because of this insanely restrictive legal situation they're in.
    I can guarantee you that DTG is unhappy about not having a world editor, just as much as you and I are. They're losing out on potential sale avenues because TSW is soo locked down, they are NOT benefitting out of it.
    The fact that we have Scenario Designer and Livery Designer is indicative of the fact that they're trying to salvage this situation, by at least trying to let users make some kind of content, rather than none at all. The hope is that someday, maybe there can be a work-around that allows the sharing of scenarios and things like that. This however, is something that we'll have to wait and see.

    Disclaimer: I'm not a legal expert. Only someone at Epic Games or DTG can provide the whole truth. This is only what I've gather purely through observation. However I do hope that this helped to at least paint a clearer picture as to whats going on :)
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
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  11. Wolfovizer

    Wolfovizer Well-Known Member

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    Should we talk about Simrail Vs TSW now, this is what the thread is about after all.
     
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  12. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Ah, well that's easy. Sign up to their third party developer agreement and all associated licensing agreements and there ya go...
    If you don't like that, continue moaning

    Saying it's a waste of your time and energy isn't the same as telling you to stop, or shut up... you do you, as I am wasting my time and energy responding to your nonsense
    Either way, yes I do know how forums work, as do you. Just because we disagree on this issue doesn't mean we can't waste time and energy mudslinging about it (I believe you should read my footer)
     
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  13. keksman

    keksman Well-Known Member

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    I dont think epic would care about people modding things in Tsw as they themselves encourage modding very hard in their forums and other UE games allowed modding too like bus sim 18. (even though their provided modding tools werent the best)

    Cant really compare ts with tsw with the modding tools as why would anyone want to play tsw if theres ts with all the different maps? People play tsw mainly for the great graphics and in that theres no alternative. On the contrary theres a lot of alternatives to ts with similar outdated graphics. Dtg are just milking the train sim community as there is no similar great looking alternative with all these rushed, bugged and short dlcs. Who in his right mind would ever want to buy any of those if the community got modding tools to release proper long maps? And that is why Simrail 2021 got so much potential if they release modding tools.
     
  14. skyMutt

    skyMutt Well-Known Member

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    The problem isn't about mods and user-made freeware. TSW already has plenty of mods that are made by amazing people, which are also freely available.
    This is different, when you're talking about giving people a full-blown editor. That is where the issues are, because you're basically giving people access to the Unreal Engine and all the things involved with it. It can't happen, and won't happen because of legal reasons.
    Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't remember ever seeing a game that uses the Unreal Engine, that also provides editor tools. Not modding support. But an actual editor that I can grab and get access to. There really isn't one.

    The case with Simrail 2021 is that (I think) they are using the Unity engine, which is more widely available and they can likely get away with making an editor.
    They are not really facing the exact same legal challenges as DTG are, and so the outcome might be different. However it is still much too early to predict what might happen, especially when the game is still in its infancy, and not everything has been confirmed yet.

    If there is anything to be taken away from this conversation, it's that the legalities of providing an editor is very, very difficult, and can change widely depending on the situation. It all needs to be looked at in a case-by-case basis, one cannot just point and say, "Well hey, they did it, so can we!" That's not really how it works.
     
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  15. KiwiLE

    KiwiLE Well-Known Member

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    AFAIK, the only legal challenge DTG face, and applied all who came before, is licensing of brands.

    Giving people an editor for a specific game within an engine isn't a copyright issue??
    SimRail editor will face the same licensing issues as a regular title, i.e, I couldn't publish a copyrighted livery and font into the game.
     
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  16. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Do you know all the legal details of the contract between DTG and Epic?

    Copyright law is just one of many laws...
     
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  17. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    This whole topic reminds me of the old wisecrack that the most popular player on an underperforming (American) football team is the backup quarterback.
     
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  18. Yzeoo

    Yzeoo New Member

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    See this: https://twitter.com/unrealengine/status/1279048498298662912.
    Unreal Engine not only supports modding but also encourages it by facilitating the distribution of editors modified by developers. So the lack of an editor does not seem to be a legal issue on the Unreal Engine side, but it is most likely due to the licenses DTG has with the various brands as mentioned in posts above.
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
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  19. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I think it so 'sweet' that some believe every word DTG say. If DTG were to get sued over TSW2 licensing issues then please tell me how many times they were sued with all the versions in TS1?
     
  20. RailRoadEngineer

    RailRoadEngineer Member

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    well done sir you make shut many mouths who say about editor licensing
    dtg want to control 3rd parties and that's it
     
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  21. RailRoadEngineer

    RailRoadEngineer Member

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    Matt P must answer us now.
    All about the editor stream.
    Don't give Simplygon & Speed Tree plugins, give Simugraph plugin.
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jul 16, 2021
  22. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Well if you ask so politely, I am sure you will get the answers you want!
     
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  23. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    Why would they not want a public editor if it was an option as it would be very good for their sales? Why would they lie?
     
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  24. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    You presume DTG released the editor in TS1... It's my understanding it predates them... and DTG have had licensing issues with TS1, including having to pull or debrand certain DLC
     
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  25. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    South Wales Main Line, North Wales Coastal and Welsh Marches spring to mind.
     
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  26. Doomotron

    Doomotron Well-Known Member

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    The editor debate is still going on, all these years later...
     
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  27. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    It's never going to happen so why blather on about it? This thread is about SimRail2021.
     
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  28. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I too think it would be a huge boost for DTG but obviously they are not thinking that way despite TS1. It is DTG's choice of course and they are free to make it as it is their company. I do believe DTG think they will cash in on doing it this way as un-licenced DLC will not be released for free so DTG get no cut. They have already said they did not want to repeat the 'chaos' of TS1 routes getting released on steam workshop for instance. Odd word to use that, 'chaos' don't you think? I would of used choice myself.

    DTG want to control the market for their game, their choice but imo flawed. You take games like Fallout 4, it was dead or dying before the mods got their hands on it, it is still going strong with all the mods you could imagine and all the bug fixes Bethesda couldn't manage to do and and Bethesda even cashed in on some of the mods by setting up a 'creation club' where creators got a bit of real cash for selling mods and of course Bethesda taking a big chunk as well.

    I hope SimRail release a decent editor as it will introduce so much variety to the game and where mere 'suggestions' may see the light of day no?
     
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  29. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    Not all legal issues or licensing issues come down to something as simplistic as ‘not being sued’. Every time someone uses that word it’s a good indication they don’t know anything about how anything works in the real world. Everything’s fine versus every one getting sued is too simplistic an argument to use for something as complicated as an editor for TSW.
     
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  30. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Actually, it was about comparing TSW and SimRail; but, as so often happens, the hijackers have taken it over rather than starting their own thread or, heaven forbid, adding their 2-cents (if that much) worth. Can anything be done about this? Sure! Follow my example and leave the room by "unwatching" this thread.

    Bye!
     
  31. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Well, in theory we're still comparing to TSW and SimRail, in regards of having an editor.

    While I agree that derailing a threat off-topic isn't a good thing, you do realize that SimRail gets mentioned in a whole lot of other topics? Which makes it a tad harder for me really feeling bad about this topic being derailed a tad.
     
  32. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I haven't seen the quote that says that Steam is the chaotic part

    Chaos for me is a dev that puts out content, then three months later changes that content to use their newest DLC so unless you have those, you can't use what you have bought and paid for
    Chaos is needing four DLC from three different providers on three different websites, but which you need 12 supporting DLC, one of which is no longer available
    Chaos is buying a DLC, then finding out that the website is automated, but the provider is no longer working, so if you need support, or if you need to redownload you can only pay again and hope it works

    Let us not forget that one thing that DTG do bring to these games is that when you buy something it comes with all you need to run things as intended. Sometimes you need additional DLC for layers (in TSW) but that doesn't stop scenarios working. When they update something it still works (with a few bugs maybe). Can we say that for the "chaos" of the third party DLC in TSC?
    No.

    Persoanlly I would be very much happier if TSW 3rd party was all done through DTG so at least we could be sure that there was monitoring and moderation and if updates happen, they still work!
     
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  33. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    Well, there's some downsides to the Steam Workshop that could be considered chaos, I guess.

    Firstly, workshop content requires one or multiple DLC to properly work. Workshop offers no way to easily filter for community content that you own the required DLC for. Although it's possible to add the requirements manually for a workshop contribution, requirements that are part of the base game's edition can't be added as steam doesn't consider those items DLC. Plus then there's some workshop items that require DLC that is no longer for sale.

    Secondly, the quality of workshop content, mainly routes, varies greatly. Although there's quite a few of workshop routes that are of amazing quality, far beyond anything DTG has ever released, they can be hard to find between the large number of workshop routes that really lack in quality. Having some sort of minimum quality for community created content wouldn't hurt, IMO.

    Not sure DTGs definition of chaos is the same as mine though.
     
  34. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I know very little third party TSC route content that doesn't require some other DLC to work.
    agreed on the filter and requirements issue, but that's a steam problem rather than a TSC problem. I don't think it's setup for DLC that need DLC to work.

    This is more to do with devs than DLC. If TSW was open to third parties then the quality would be down to the devs, an issue we have in TSW with Arosa and IoW (from what I've read, I don't have Arosa and haven't played IoW). How are you going to "police minimum quality"? Who's going to pay for that policing?
     
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  35. conniethunder

    conniethunder Well-Known Member

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    Just my 2 pence worth, but surely people can learn the modding tools that must be freely available, and then work on fixing routes/trains yourself? I don't see why you would 'need' an integrated level editor. That said, I too would like that feature.
     
  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    People want the editor to exist so those with moderate skill or better can work on routes the person wants which DTG isn't going to get to
    They don't necessarily want to have to learn how to do it themselves, let alone have the skill to do so
     
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  37. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    The 'chaos' that DTG was referring to I got was that they were overwhelmed by the volume of routes and mods released, why it would be an issue for DTG I am not sure, you would have to ask them but my guess is that they wanted to control the market.

    You seem to like your definitions of the term 'chaos', I have a few more for you.

    Chaos is DTG releasing DLC that has a few bugs in and over 6 months later still has not addressed yet.

    Chaos for me is DTG constantly saying in streams they have fixed certain bugs that were outstanding only they cannot release them yet.

    Chaos for me is DTG releasing new content like Cathcart only you cannot see the stations at night due to poor lighting, now that is chaos.

    And remember my examples are from 'paid for' of which there are others and your examples can cover 'free' content which maybe frustrating if you cannot get to work but in the end it is FREE!. And from the mods I have seen and used I have been very impressed and would love them people to have access to an editor, unless of course you don't want access to top quality content free or not.

    One example was where DTG said in a stream that they could not remove the overheard cables from the Diesels legend pack as it would take months of work. I use a mod for exactly for this that was released not long after launch. So you tell me how could this be possible if DTG are always so 'truthful' in whatever they say? I have mods for the ballast, sleepers, station signs, 101 liveries ETC all previously referenced in this pack but was said to be not possible to change or would take a long time to do but are available, it must be a MIRACLE.
     
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  38. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I agree, I would say it is a poor excuse. From my examples of using the term 'not being sued' came from DTG themselves in streams. I look at Games like PES that are far bigger than TSW2 and have far reaching more licensing issues like kits, balls, boots, leagues, stadiums, badges, cups, competitions even haircuts and more, And even though PES has one or two licences (just to annoy EA) they bypass or that by having them unlicenced and the modding community do the rest and more. It truly is impressive imo, there are paid for ones and free ones. The one I have is paid for and looks better that the original. Not saying the exact thing would happen here for TSW2 but going by TS1 and the quality of mods for TSW2 it may do, no?
     
  39. kcyre

    kcyre New Member

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    It's very sad that DTG chooses to not hear the majority of the game fanbase and not release the editors. I really would love to enjoy TSW2 as I do with TSC. The main problem with TSC is the graphic engine that is outdated (and the game isn't as flexible as TSW).

    I love trains since I was a kid, and I love the railway in general. When I knew about RailSimulator then RailWorks, back in 2010 I was really happy to play it. But as I`m Brazillian, there wasn't ANY official Brazillian content (routes/locomotives) from the game publisher at that time. What saved the simulator for us was the EDITORS. If we were going to wait for official content we would never have so many great times with the simulator... For example, there is a locomotive model that only exists here in Brazil.. the EMD DDM45 is an SD45 with a fu***** D-D metric truck. We only could make this locomotive inside the TSC because of the EDITORS and without it, the fun of simulating (at least for me) is blurring out...

    I'm very sad at this point
     
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  40. LastTrainToClarksville

    LastTrainToClarksville Well-Known Member

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    Having watched the stream that Matt produced some time ago about the editor then in progress, I can only shudder imagining all of the fuss that would have ensued had it been released. Having made more than 40 scenarios for TS (some no longer available for some reason or other), I can confidently say that learning to make them was not at all easy and that the difficulty increased as DTG added features to the editor without ever documenting them by updating their original user's manual (which, by the way, was not comprehensive from the start). Matt's presentation of the proposed TSW editor made it look much more complicated -- if I'm remembering correctly even he became confused a couple of times. The old adage, "Be careful what you wish for" certainly comes to mind whenever forum members begin clamoring for a TSW editor. If one ever becomes available, I'll probably give it a try and just as probably give it up in frustration.
     
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  41. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    MSFS has similar issues, yet people have been able to learn the editing tools and have made tons of freeware and payware content. Even if you can't learn the editor itself you're still gonna benefit from all the content that gets made from the community. And if you think the editor is difficult, how difficult do think it is for people like Yuri to mod the game without any of those tools? Do you think you could ever figure that out? I wouldn't, certainly not before I could learn TS Classic's editor at any rate.
     
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  42. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Would be nice to have the choice no?
     
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  43. robbo2k

    robbo2k Member

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    In my opinion, an amateur is not able to release good content in the form of a route. The level of detail and complexity is too great. Since DTG professionally needs months to prepare a trs, either amateur routes will be bad or they will be created for years. This is not openrail where there are rectangles with 4 textures taken from the photo.

    On the other hand, the justification of the DTG is nonsense. In Transport Fever 2, "amateurs" release licensed vehicles at their own risk in the Steam Workshop. I do not know a single case of an order to withdraw such content, and there is a licensed rolling stock with licensed painting
     
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  44. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I'd beg to differ. An amateur might take more time than the months DTG takes, but in TS there are countless of good community routes. Sure, there is also enough of the bad stuff, and that can be challenging to sif through, but the hidden gems are there.

    The only issue would be dependencies, which TS has sooo many of that some freeware becomes unplayable.
     
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  45. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    I do agree with your second paragraph but I would say 'Amateurs' are more capable than what you think. TS1, Fallout4, PES' FIFA, ETC.
     
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  46. robbo2k

    robbo2k Member

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    I would not compare the complexity of TS1 to TSW, especially the amount and quality of textures. The fact that amateurs create content for openrail or TS does not prove anything, because the entire environment there is a gutter on which textures are displayed. There are no buildings fully modeled with thousands of polygons. A similar degree of complexity is Tramsim or The Bus (Unreal Engine)
     
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  47. Mich

    Mich Well-Known Member

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    Again, Microsoft Flight Simulator has dev tools publicly available, and there's been many scenery packages made for free that can rival what you can get in the payware marketplace. Similarly anyone can come in and start learning how to make aircraft for the sim, and as a result we already have quite a few aircraft released for the sim, certainly it's been faster than anything in TSW. Keep in mind having these tools out here not only help amateurs like you or me, they also help places that are established get into the sim. After all the lack of such tools, alongside some stupid policies by DTG, is basically what killed Flight Sim World.
     
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  48. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    The devs themselves said in stream that TSW2 routes and TS routes are comparable in the amount of work (the locos do have massive differences). I'd guess that the dev tools for TSW2 allow for just as fast route building at a higher quality compared to TS.
     
  49. Maik Goltz

    Maik Goltz Well-Known Member

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    Definitely not. That's maybe a wish. DTG can do it in the same time as before because they use a larger team now than for TS1 routes. But lets say as a external 3rd party dev you will need alot more time to get a route done than for TS1. In the first place you have to learn all that new stuff. That takes months/yeaars for its own. If you refer to creating routes with exsisting assets, then maybe yes. But not when you need to create new assets (like stations).
     
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  50. dhekelian

    dhekelian Well-Known Member

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    Let's not forget the mods that are available for TSW2 now. Most of which are brilliant. I have mods for the Diesels legend Pack where DTG said it would have taken them weeks/months to do yet it they were available in a matter of weeks. I have no doubt at all that if an editor were to become available will see mods comparable if not better than the originals after a short period

    I'm not saying every single mod or even bug fix but most of them. IMO of course.
     
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