Ska Layers Odd Signaling?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by ILied, Mar 27, 2021.

  1. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Is anyone seeing strange signals going from Aachen to Köln? I noticed it doing the 11:42 service from Aachen. It’s showing a red for me about 20km into the route and not really a chance to slow down. Taking the train as a passenger, the AI just goes through the signal.

    I have all layers for the route.
     
  2. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    ICE? Which train?
     
  3. kuchen0125

    kuchen0125 Active Member

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    You have to enable the LZB. The LZB slows you down.
     
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  4. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Yes ICE
     
  5. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    It should be possible to do without LZB. It’s not really good that you need LZB in order to fully do timetables from Aachen to Köln, but you can do the other way.
     
  6. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    IRL these trains are handled via LZB :)
    LZB is not an autopilot when used without AFB!
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
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  7. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Are you getting any yellows? If you are not using LZB, the maximum speed you are allowed to travel is 160km/h. At that speed, you should have enough time to slow down to a stop upon seeing a yellow signal (though it may not be comfortable!). If you are not seeing any yellows before reds, then something is wrong.

    Cheers
     
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  8. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    If there is no track change, it is possible to meet red without preceding yellow, but - all magnets will be active in this block, so - impossible to miss.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  9. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I'm not using any safety systems at all as it's new to me.

    There is a yellow then green then red. Speed is already 250kph and signals are close together.

    What is strange is the AI passing through these signals. It implies something is wrong with how they are working. The AI did stop on the approach to Köln Hbf but not for other red signals.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  10. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    So, this is LZB section. No chance without safety systems :) Check this out:

     
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  11. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I'm intending to look at this. I already have it queued up on YouTube, but the point is it's meant to be working whether the safety systems are on or off and the AI should behave in the same way as a human would drive it.
     
  12. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    This is how it works most of the time. Maybe some bug in this service. Will check.
     
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  13. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    You are not allowed to travel more than 160km/h without LZB enabled. Under normal circumstances, you should have enough time to slow down from 160km/h between a yellow and red signal (~1km). If you would like to safely travel at higher speeds, you must use LZB.
    LZB allows trains to pass by "red" signals. If the signal is red but LZB says it is safe to continue through, then you may pass. It is also possible that you are confusing a stop signal with something different, like a shunt signal?

    Cheers
     
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  14. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Thanks. This is what I was checking first before contacting support.
     
  15. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    If I were using only PZB then yes, this is true, but I don’t have any systems turned on so I can go as fast as I like. Matt & Sam talked about this in one of the preview streams back in the summer.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
  16. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    You are missing the point. Without LZB, there is no other advanced warning of an upcoming restriction. You can not possibly expect the signals to warn you of a red from further away because they are only designed to display information for trains running 160km/h or slower. That means that if you are driving faster than 160km/h, by the time the signals tell you to slow down, it will already be too late because you do not have enough track to slow down. LZB gives you warning of upcoming restrictions much further in advance than what semaphore signals are capable of. Remember, LZB is also effectively an in-cab signalling system.

    Cheers
     
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  17. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    OK. I do have an understanding of how signals work. My point is the game is designed to be played with or without the safety systems turned on. The fact the AI is passing through a red signal a human player isn’t allowed through feels like a bug to me. I even ran the service going the other way and I couldn’t see a reason for the behaviour.
     
  18. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    I think these are two separate discussions that are being too hastily conflated. There is no getting around that you need LZB turned on to be warned of upcoming restrictions in time (without using the HUD), if you are travelling at high speeds. This is simply a reflection of how German signalling is modelled. The game can be played without safety systems turned on, but you need to respect the 160km/h limit set in place by DB if you expect the signals to give you enough advanced warning.

    I am curious about the AI going through red signals (for anyone in the know, even an AI SPAD will kick you out of the session, so an AI train going through a red without permission would send you back to the main menu even though you are not in control of it), so I will try out the service for myself and let you know my findings.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
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  19. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    checking this right now :) hard to believe - true heh
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2021
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  20. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    To confirm what was happening, I used the map to show the signals.
     
  21. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Better take a shot of AI approaching this mysterious RED :)
    I spot RED with ICE only in one place close to Koln.
     
  22. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    this one?

    ska.png
     
  23. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    No, it was much earlier. About 15 minutes into the journey, around where 250km/h starts. The AI stopped there no problem, but I wasn’t even getting that far as a player service.
     
  24. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    There is no RED earlier :) But you are out of speed limit all the time I supposed so it is possible to meet some strange circumstances.

    But - AI passing RED signal? Where? AI is always within the speed limit.
     
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  25. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I’ll try again. It might have just been a bug for that particular run of the game. I do also have all available layers for SKA, including the DB BR 182 and MRCE 185.
     
  26. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    I have all layers too, but this is just impossible with AI in this run.
    Driving as a passenger now... :)
     
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  27. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Next time I load the game up, I’ll give it another try.
     
  28. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    The only real scenario of this type - you do not comply with the speed limits and you end up on a busy track because you are somewhere out of schedule too early. But that's not a BUG. This is how this game works. You cannot pass the STOP signal :)
     
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  29. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I leave on time from Aachen and I follow the speed limits. I don’t understand this.
     
  30. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    don't know what to say - I am on my second run now - everything is OK :)
     
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  31. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Thanks for checking it out! I did run the tutorial just before hand as well. That’s the only other thing I can think that might cause this. Sorry if I’ve seemed silly about it!
     
  32. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    Well, I just did the service (spawned on foot at Aachen at 11:40 and boarded the train). I watched the signals from the boom camera and the train never blew through a red signal. So I am not sure how this happened to you. If you could try to reproduce it on video, show screenshots, or give the distance marker of the signal, that could help narrow it down.

    Cheers
     
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  33. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I will try it again and see what happens. I’m stumped.
     
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  34. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    GO for some tutorial and try to act as a trained pro there :) You will love it!
     
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  35. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No, speed is 160kph if you aren't under LZB control.
     
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  36. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    He is under no control :) He confessed!
     
  37. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Obviously, I am not right, haha

    There is always such a progression - expect stop > stop
    But there is no mandatory sequence such a expect slow before expect stop

    In our little adventure, there is a yellow there of course! Callum \o/

    Me, dumb :D BR
     
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  38. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Thanks for your assistance! I have just managed to complete it successfully! I put it down to the same thing that caused Sam’s TGV to derail like it did! :)
     
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  39. Callum B.

    Callum B. Well-Known Member

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    One day we will find out what cause that incident. One day... :)
    Glad to hear you were able to do it successfully. Enjoy the route! It's good fun.

    Cheers
     
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  40. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I’m sure we will one day :) I even did it a second time successfully. Thanks, I’ll try! It certainly is good fun. I’m enjoying the ICE, next is to try the Talent 2 and other regional/S Bahn trains.
     
  41. hyperlord

    hyperlord Well-Known Member

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    LZB on and signals don't apply anymore to you. That's not a bug.
     
  42. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I managed to do a run with just LZB (and AFB) and when Ende appeared, I tried to tell LZB I’d acknowledged it but it applied the emergency brakes with “Befhur 40” appearing. This was on HMA & SKA.
     
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  43. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    To confirm LZB Ende use LZB release - [END] key
    Good job after all \o/
     
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  44. doublefine7

    doublefine7 Well-Known Member

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    You need to press "PZB/LZB Frei/Release" instead of "Acknowledge".
     
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  45. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    I have to admit though there is something about the alarms. I think it’s good to set off once.

    Mind you, it also comes with practice where the Ende is and when to tell LZB to go back to sleep.

    Is it possible for LZB to reprime after an Ende to then be activated again after a PZB section? (I’m using Matt’s terms in case anyone is wondering where it comes from.)
     
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  46. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    In SKA and HMA, the LZB sections are the middle part of the ride - after the 'ende', there is no opportunity to switch it back on.
     
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  47. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Thanks. I realise this, it was more to understand more about LZB more than anything!

    Although arguably in HMA it’s possible at München Hbf to turn the train around and head out again. Not sure if there is an ICE that doesn’t go to Hackebrucke before going back to the station to head out again.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  48. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    Munchen Hbf is a terminal station: all trains have to reverse out. But those services that don't terminate at Munchen don't leave the way they came in! ICE services that come in via Augsburg (from Mannheim, mostly) branch off to the south just past Hackerbrucke, on their way to Austria.

    Koln is different, because it's laid out as a through station. Trains from Brussels via Aachen that go on to Frankfurt will hit the SFS Koln-Frankfurt, and resume LZB along that stretch.
     
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  49. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    Nice, colorful, just in time to start ;) p.14 ~
     

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  50. ILied

    ILied Active Member

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    Thanks!
     
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