So.........are "layers A Bonus"

Discussion in 'PlayStation Discussion' started by Sheldon1000, Oct 8, 2021.

  1. Sheldon1000

    Sheldon1000 Well-Known Member

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    JD said last night in the stream that "layers are a bonus." How do you feel about that?
     
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  2. Tigert1966

    Tigert1966 Well-Known Member

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    I agree. You should buy the base route for what it is. To me if I have the extra DLC, then great, it adds to the value. But as the additional DLC‘s are not mandatory for the route to work, then for me they are a bonus.
     
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  3. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    It is a tough one. I would agree that "bonus" would be the right word if it were a surprise to get them. To me, describing them as a bonus in this context is a slap in the face to gen 8 console users. I have spent just as much money as next gen and PC users, but I am getting less functionality and content by virtue of my platform. I honestly believe that if the gen 8 consoles can not handle the same level of content as other platforms, DTG needs to stop releasing new DLC on gen 8 consoles, or start charging less.
     
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  4. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    What you are describing makes sense, but in my case I own GWE, SEHS and BML but have no layers as I am on PS4. I have the DLC but can't use them, unlike the other platforms who have spent just as much money as I have.
     
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  5. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Layers have always been a bonus. No route is sold as having layers as it all depends on what other DLC you own. You might not like that answer, but it’s the right one.
     
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  6. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    When you upgrade to a PS5, you’ll get the PS5 content at no extra charge.
     
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  7. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I disagree with the "bonus" notion. For one thing routes are being released with just 2 trains or locos in TSW. And one at least is usually recycled. That's not enough. I think the addition of layers is DTG's way of making up the weight, making the route attractive to players. So, in that sense, it's not a bonus or freebie.
    Secondly, people have been buying whole routes just to get their hands on a particular loco ( which is the only option in TSW), with the full expectation that it can be used elsewhere. If it ends up being a kind of "white elephant", like the 101, then they rightfully feel let down.
    In particular, gen8 owners should have been told well before Rush Hour was put on sale, that they were likely going to get less out of it than the rest of us.
     
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  8. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    When you're ready to buy me one let me know and I'll DM you my address for shipping.

    I disagree with that point of view entirely, even if it is the one shared by DTG. I think it is bad customer service to sell a route with less functionality for the same amount. I am not asking for layers that I do not own, simply for the ones I do own to be activated, as they are for everyone else.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
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  9. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    Base Ps5 is proving to be not a such good ideia after all...i mean with this cap from Sony its a no go for me...and i am not sure if DTG is able to get around that!
    Best action is wait for Ps5 Pro...
     
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  10. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    This I agree with 100%. We were only told on the first preview stream, at least to my knowledge.
     
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  11. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    The older generation consoles cannot run the layers. If they could, they would be there.
     
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  12. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    The DLC cap is unlikely to be lifted on the PS5 Pro (if Sony even make one). There must be a specific reason a cap has been introduced, though what that is is a mystery. DTG can easily get round the cap by including all the DLC in the core and allowing players to activate different bits with various keys. DTG certainly has to further optimise the PS5 version of the game. There are far too many FPS slow downs and crashes - especially on Brighton Commuter.
     
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  13. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    I understand that. But in my opinion, as heavily biased as it may be, DTG needs to address this and make especially clear, before any sales are made, that last gen console users will not get the full experience out of a route. Say what you want, but I feel I am not getting the full functionality of the route that I have paid for, whereas others spending the same money are. Seeing as this route has effectively been on sale since the middle of august, I don't feel that it was adequately expressed to me. Maybe I have no idea what I'm talking about, I am simply sharing my opinion.
     
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  14. DTG JD

    DTG JD Staff Member

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    Just to add a bit of context here. This was in relation to the layers discussion around 8th and 9th-gen consoles.

    Obviously, we'd like everyone to be able to have everything; but there's a balance to be had between pushing the capabilities of the newer consoles, whilst ensuring that the previous consoles can still play the core functionality of the route, which ultimately is what we have to prioritise. This has been one of the major challenges of the Rush Hour routes.

    We hadn't promised layers on the route (or any Rush Hour routes) until we knew what was and wasn't possible.

    So, a 'bonus' in the sense that they're extra things outside of the core route - I agree there is a balance to be made though, and we'll work on what we can do to provide the best possible experience for every player. We don't have the answers yet, by any means, but these are the kinds of discussions we're having at the moment.
     
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  15. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    I can bet with you that...yes Ps5 Pro is coming and is coming fast...and isnt going to have this cap...is quite clear that Sony knows that they screwed with this base Ps5...Sorry to break It to you...
     
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  16. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    If a PS5 Pro does come, I’ll likely upgrade to it, so it’s no big deal either way. I upgraded my PS4 to the PS4 Pro. Gaming is my hobby. I don’t smoke or drink, have no kids to worry about and I own my house - so no rent or mortgage. I’m fortunate and accept that other people aren’t.
     
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  17. tcmikaelsouza

    tcmikaelsouza Active Member

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    DTG JD I think your comment was very enlightening, because after I managed to buy other DLC's I was ill used to having a plurality of locomotives operating in one line, see Kohn - Aachen, my first "disappointment" is Munich, which for PS4 only has the base locomotives, I always feel that something else is missing from it, but I remember that Matt had mentioned that it was impossible, given the number of services, detail that many three leave the "Visible Route" in London - Brighton there are many trains on the route itself, so it's really complicated, I wanted at least the 375 SE add to the PS4, but that's exactly what you said, we need to stabilize the basics and then think in layers, I'd really like more layers, but please kindly you guys review our initial problems, and maybe add some layers.
     
  18. Birita

    Birita Well-Known Member

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    Everyone that has the time to come here and discuss issues in a game are fortunate...i Will likely have to buy two Ps5 Pros when they launch...because i have chidren and own my house aswell...life IS good indeed...
    Cheers...
     
  19. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    I wholeheartedly disagree.

    Layers as well as substitution are (and if they aren't currently should be) a fundamental part of every release.

    IMO More effort should go into making broader layering and substitution, and right now is the most underrated and underused mechanic of the game. Particularly for German content.

    I didn't buy HMA specifically due to a lack of layers before the upgrade to S X|S and IMO the fact that a lot of possible layering is being left out of the game is my biggest source of disappointment (apart from the wonky textures).

    BR425 on MSB, BR423 on SKA for example.

    How long will it take for the new freight wagons with G/P valve to be added to ALL the older routes? IMO this should be one of the priorities of the preservation team, rather than adding grade crossings. How long will it take for the BML 377 to be added to ECW? And will the new sound and physics make its way on the SE 375? Again, those should be the highest priority of Adam's team IMO, granted PIS and level crossing hugely help with immersion, but not as much as better physics and sounds, not by a long shot.
    As we know right now the Class 465 is doing a lot of Thameslink work on SEHS, How confident are you all that if/when a Class 700 gets released it will substitute the 465 on SEHS? We should be able to take that for granted, not make a huge party in the slim chance it actually happens.

    However I must concede that if old gen is physically incapable of running with them they must be cut.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
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  20. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    The decision to cut for older gen consoles, is 100% entirely based on this specific critieria and nothing else.

    If you look back over the announcements for London Brighton you will remember that there was a lot of frustration that the GWE 166 was not confirmed as to whether it would be included or not - this was intentional, and for this very reason. Unfortunately some screenshots went out that showed southeastern content and even that wasn't strictly intentional.

    Until we had *proven* we were happy with it the plan was not to make any kind of assertions about the status of it and we left it until the last possible minute to ultimately pull them as there were some potential options being tested that could have made the difference.

    We want everyone to have the best experience possible. We will always include the layers if we can, but if all it does is make it crash then they can't be included.

    We have some more things being worked on at the moment and we'll see how they end up. We haven't given up yet - but getting stability right, and the framerate to something a bit more respectable are the first goals.

    The only real problem with this, which is not apparent if you have a nice fast connection, and no other games installed, is that your base game as a first time buyer just went from a 20gb download (or whatever it is exactly), to a 100 gb download... that's a big load of space used and a lot of download time / bandwidth - which for some people is still metered, so that is not a decision you move to without ruling out all the other options.

    Matt.
     
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  21. Lonewolf97

    Lonewolf97 Member

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    Same am on ps4 its a bummer but I do have one idea take a Class 377 and make a Southeastern livery on it so it can pop up in game to make it feel like we have that layer until hopefully they enable it on last gen.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
  22. Dinosbacsi

    Dinosbacsi Well-Known Member

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    You guys are whining like old generation consoles getting "dumbed down" versions of new games is a new phenomenon. I mean come on, this was a thing even back in the PS2 era. There are a bunch of PS2 games that are very noticeably toned down compared to the PS3 version, or are even completely different games - for example, NFS Pro Street and NFS Undercover. So this is nothing new.

    You get less content for your money, compared to PC and new gen console folks? Well, yes, but sadly that's the limitations of old hardware. If I buy a new game on my old PC and it can't run it, even though I spent the same money on the game as other people have, I still won't be able to play the game.

    You could ask for a lower price for the "toned down" version for the old gen consoles, but at the end the developer still has to get paid for taking the time to develop the product for the lower gen hardware as well.
     
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  23. morph147

    morph147 Member

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    I know I may be in the minority here but as a PS4 player, I just want a game that works and be able to kick back and enjoy myself driving around a train. I know I will never have the time to play every single service and every single train on every single route and every single service and I am ok with that. What I am not ok with is the limited amount of time I do have to play is gets eaten up due to game crashes or services that take 3 hours to beat because you have to go 5 miles per hour the entire time (I am looking at you sand patch grade).

    As long as DTG delivers on that then I am good.
     
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  24. FD1003

    FD1003 Well-Known Member

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    Exactly. I could also argue that it's not fair for me to get the same amount of content because I've spent €500 for a next-gen console. The truth of course is that in this case what you pay for doesn't exactly equate what you get.

    Also, if an old-gen player gets BML they will (hopefully) get the layers when they upgrade to Next Gen.
     
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  25. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    You're right, I am making a big deal out of this when really it shouldn't be. Thank you for helping me realize that. However, that being said BML is not really working for me performance wise so I'll focus on that for now.
     
  26. tcmikaelsouza

    tcmikaelsouza Active Member

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    I particularly missed the 375 SE in BML, I hope that after they solve all the BML issues they will allow to add this lottomotive that is part of the Electrostar family. What makes me really confused is that there are 1200 +/- services with the two standard loco +/- 1400 services with all layers, how does this impact so much TrainSim-Matt ?
     
  27. TrainSim-Matt

    TrainSim-Matt Executive Producer Staff Member

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    It's not about the number of services - it's about the number of trains.

    Removing the layers, removes a ton of different rail vehicles from needing to be loaded. Doesn't end up mattering if they are used once at midnight or every minute of the day (well, it does, but far far less so).
     
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  28. ace

    ace Member

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    Really I just wanted to say Hi Matt. I love the game and even though its not perfect, (what is?) I'm still driving routes and doing Mastery Challenges. I play on the base PS4 and I own everything but Cane Creek and Diesel Legends. The new London route is a little slow at times but I still enjoy it and all the other routes and locos. I have a 4 TB external HHD on my PS4 so keep the content coming. Thanks to everybody for their hard work. PS: When I was young I used to play Flight Simulator at about 12-15 FPS and it didn't matter because I was playing Flight Simulator so I'm enjoying my train just fine.
     
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  29. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    People seem to love car analogies on these forums, so here you go: Suppose you drive a Ford Fiesta 1.2 which has a max speed of 100mph. You're currently happily driving along the motorway at 70mph with everyone else. Now imagine the people running the M6 Toll say that they're going to increase the speed limit on that stretch of road to 200mph and add a loop-the-loop which requires a minimum speed of 150mph to clear. They're going to charge the same as they always have, but now you can drive faster and do cool stunts.

    Immediately, everyone with supercars can push their cars faster and have their fun, and you're spending your journey being overtaken by people who, for whatever reason, can afford cars with much higher top speeds than yours. If you try to make your car go faster, it'll probably break. If you try and complete the loop at your max of 100mph, you'll definitely crash (crash as in "fiery death" rather than "blue screen of death"). Should the operators charge you less, even though you've been happily paying to drive at 70mph all this time? Should they limit everyone to 70mph, just because it's 'fair'?

    Or should you quit whining and decide whether having the best experience is worth you spending the extra money? Because, much as you're paying for the same drive on the same road, you haven't paid the same overall as next gen and PC users.
     
    Last edited: Oct 9, 2021
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  30. tcmikaelsouza

    tcmikaelsouza Active Member

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    TrainSim-Matt your comment was very enlightening, thank you very much, know that I'm a big fan of your work, I'm a little sad about the recent crash events, but I'm sure we'll be able to fix it and we'll be able to play this line normally, in addition to the whole Rush Hour.
     
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  31. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Matt has a great way of explaining things in layman’s terms. I love watching his streams partly for this.
     
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  32. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I always forget about the Internet speed and metered connections. Storage on the console is also a big factor as you say. I’m still puzzled why Sony has done what it has done.
     
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  33. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    You know, that's a great way of explaining it. Like I said above, I have seen other points of view and I have come around to accept that my opinion didn't really align with reality.
    That being said, if they do find a way to include layers in BML on gen 8 consoles, I will gladly embrace them.
    Overall, I think that JD's comments just rubbed me the wrong way and made me feel like PS4 users were not as important to DTG, despite clearly being pretty prominent and relevant still. Maybe that was just me but it is how I felt and wanted to vent. This thread has made me see the light, so to speak.
     
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  34. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    I do genuinely believe that they'd love to include the layers and let everyone have the full quota of joy. If they can find a way to somehow alter the laws of physics around the loop-the-loop so you might make it round in your Fiesta without a crash, they'd definitely do that, but that's probably quite a tricky business! :)
     
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  35. tcmikaelsouza

    tcmikaelsouza Active Member

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    I also love watching the Streams, if only to watch them play, my problem is the language, I can't speak or understand English, so things get complicated for me, sometimes I review some excerpts when the translated subtitle is enabled, to understand some point, but sometimes I don't have time for that. I hope to learn English soon so I can understand 100% of the streams and so will you.
     
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  36. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    I look at it this way:

    It's a little bonus if you own route ×, × or ×.

    When buying a route you buy the route, the included locos and the associated services and scenarios.

    Layers come with other DLCs, so thus are seperate, and aren't part of the DLC itself. So (from a Gen8 player), whilst I'd love to get the layers on BML, HMA, etc, It is only a little addition for everyone.
     
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  37. barryr21

    barryr21 Member

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    This. I know as a PS4 player i'm not getting a PS5/PC version of the game and I am more than happy with the PS4 version of the game, it is the game I spend most time on. Just when paying £32 for an update that doesn't work just stings a little!
     
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  38. barryr21

    barryr21 Member

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    What have they done??
     
  39. universal.chris

    universal.chris Active Member

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    Hit the nail on the head. Great analogy
     
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  40. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    Limited DLC on PS5 to around 64GB, meaning anything more than that doesn’t show up in TSW 2. I’ve had to delete several DLC to get BML working.
     
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  41. breblimator

    breblimator Well-Known Member

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    optional additional content = bonus

    I am greedy and I also like to have everything (I only have GWE here), I understand the disappointment of those who have the required DLCs, but in my opinion, the product is only the basic content in this case. BR o7
     
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  42. barryr21

    barryr21 Member

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    Thats insane.
     
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  43. OnlyMe1909

    OnlyMe1909 Well-Known Member

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    I’ve said it before, I know and understand that gen8 consoles can’t run all the layers on certain routes in one timetable. I accept that.
    For me personally, the main thing that pains me is we’re missing out on diversity. Not the diversity of ai traffic that you see along the way, but the number of different trains that I myself can drive on that route. And there is a solution for that: release the missing layers in a separate timetable. I know there will be less ai traffic in this additional layer as the trains of the base layer won’t be in there. But as it is now, we don.t have any of extra layers, so that is a price I’m more than willing to pay.
    ThIs is also a solution that is doable pretty quickly. DTG seems to be holding off on this, we’re always told that they’re continuing the optimization work. I’m sorry TrainSim-Matt , but that is gonna take much too long IMO. Look at HMA. That’s been out for a year now, and optimization work has given us 0 extra layers so far. Such a great route, spoiled by the fact that I can only run two trains on it. And I highly doubt that optimization is going to get you to a point that you can indeed include all layers in one timetable. I just don’t think you’ll ever get there.

    IMO putting the missing layers in a separate timetable is the best possible solution. Is ideal? No, but at least it is possible and can be implemented quickly. So I’d be more than happy with it
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2021
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  44. sequencer2k16

    sequencer2k16 Well-Known Member

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    I have always seen layers as a bonus and consider layers as a nice gesture to give us more stuff on our routes (if possible hardware-wise). Layers are an important step but not self-evident and in my opinion DTG is not obliged to create them.

    If the old consoles do not make it, bad luck, sorry. The layers are not part of the route's scope of delivery,
    it does not say anywhere in the store that you can get layers here and there and there when you buy this or this or this..

    I also think that DTG should not give up money by offering the console versions cheaper, because the work is still in it
    and if you have the layers but not the hardware, you have to accept the limitations.

    Many of you should slowly realize that your older consoles are doomed at some point in the future and will no longer be supported
    because TSW is evolving and your PS4 or xBox is not.
     
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  45. junior hornet

    junior hornet Well-Known Member

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    The cold hard facts are:

    All content released with this DLC (i.e. the route and the 377/387) are available to all users, including gen 8.

    All trains used in the layers are available to all users for the routes they were purchased for.

    Ergo, being able to use these trains in LBN is a bonus.
     
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  46. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    Just as a context for having different versions of the game.

    If you own Madden, Fifa, NHL 22 you get a toned down game on the 8th gen consoles then what you get with the 9th gen consoles. Also same with new Forza Horizon and even MLB the show 21, has toned down graphics and no stadium creator on the old consoles.

    So its not anything new that other developers don't do themselves. And it always happens when a new console comes out the older gen misses out on features the newer consoles get.

    It's just a fact of life, and none of this discussion will matter in a couple of years when the majority have upgraded their consoles anyways.

    All DTGs responsibility is to provide a stable running game for each platform, by any means possible. Even if it means no/less layers or less passengers or a reduced timetable. It just the way it is.

    And from the way Matt has described it it sounds to me like they are putting more time and man hours into figuring out what that balance is while giving as much as they can.

    So you should be thankful for that because most developer wouldn't invest in doing that.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2021
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  47. cmadonna1998

    cmadonna1998 Member

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    For the record, I am base PS4 user I have been converted by other users into seeing DTG's approach to layers, but I still want to point out that those games are more on PS5 than PS4. For example, in the US an NHL 22 preorder is $69.99 on PS5 and $59.99 on PS4, so some developers are acknowledging that those who get lesser versions of the game.
     
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  48. bakedpotatos.jm

    bakedpotatos.jm Well-Known Member

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    I agree that that does sound fair. But the thing is with NHL in particular I can say from experience that what EA does is they basically just release a clone of last years game on the older console with new rosters, stadiums, team and uniform changes where needed. So in reality we put as little work and effort into the old version. I can't speak for other developers policies because I've only worked for the one, but I figure its usually the same at least for major developers.

    So hence why they charge usually $10 less.

    But it sounds like what DTG is doing is making the full game for PC, then redoing that build to the 9th gen consoles with locked settings for consoles. Then for the 8th gen they start with the full build then test how it runs, if it not up to standards then they take away say the layers next then retest it. And repeat that process removing items one at a time and re- testing until they find a build that will run stable.

    In this case DTG are putting way more man-hours into the 8th gen builds than the others, so that is why I think they can justify charging full price for each. And in reality they should charge more because it sounds like more work to make the 8th gen version.

    Now to be honest I don't think this is the way the 3 Rush Hour routes worked when they went in guns blazing due to how unstable the game is running on those consoles.

    But it sounds like this will be the way going forward from what Matt and JD said on Thursdays stream.

    But remember though even though you may have no layers or a reduced timetable with some layers for diversity or whatever they have to leave behind for the old consoles it will only be temporary because once you upgrade you will get all those features for free.

    Remember if you own the 8th gen version you will get the 9th version for free when you upgrade its not like you have to buy the base game or all your DLC again. So at least thats not a new cost when the time comes.

    I've watched a youtube channel this weekend that streams TSW on the PS4. And all I can say is I really feel for you guys and hope DTG get a stable running version of the game, it's definitely not running stable when the FPS counter is yellow and red for most of the time playing.
     
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  49. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    You’re looking at that the wrong way round, they’re charging more for next gen, the last gen prices are the same they’ve always been.
     
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  50. Factor41

    Factor41 Well-Known Member

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    Sony have introduced this for their in-house studios too; their games now all have a charged upgrade path from PS4 to PS5 which is a standard £10/$10. Dovetail are thankfully independent and have chosen not to charge us for the platform switch, which is a good thing - as CK95 says, this isn't the PS4 players getting a discount, it's just putting a structure in place so that when they do eventually upgrade to PS5, there's a legitimate cost difference so they can charge you the extra £10 for the 'upgrade' to the same game.
     
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