So How Accurate Can Ts Be?

Discussion in 'General Discussion' started by Pookeyhead, May 19, 2021.

  1. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    So, in answer to a question no one asked... here's real life vs. Train Sim.



    Route: OTS Northern Lines Electric
    Original video courtesy of Don Coffey (permission granted).

    You know what? Sure.. TSW is graphically more sophisticated, but I actually think TS2021 looks more REAL somehow (or at least CAN do). I reckon if you did a similar video using TSW2, it would be nowhere near as real (or accurate) once you get outside the stations. It's like... well.. take Cyberpunk 2077; It looks absolutely amazing.. I mean jaw dropping... but it doesn't look real... it just looks good. TSW is a bit like that if you ask me. Stunning... but somehow not real.

    Incidentally, if anyone is in any doubt about the efficacy of ReShade, particularly the selective colour shader for it, check out how realistic the sky and foliage colours are compared to real life. Out of the box, TS has acid green trees and crayon blue skies. Even just installing the AP sky and weather pack doesn't fix the colours... even RWEnhancer pro doesn't (although you can add more variance to the veg with it).

    So... how accurate can TS be? Well.. it's down to the route of course, but in this case, OTS got it petty bang on I reckon. What do you think?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  2. ntypeman

    ntypeman Active Member

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    Pooky...

    That's pretty **** hot... I found myself on several occasions questioning myself on which was the real video...

    I think you'd be hard pressed to get it 100% right but I reckon it's a good 99.5%...

    Eric
     
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  3. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I'm impressed that you could get TS2021 wrong 7 times.
     
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  4. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Any train sim is only as accurate as the route of course, but OTS have clearly done a great job.. apart from the buildings when approaching Layton... no idea what they thought they were doing there... LOL.
     
  5. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    It's been out for three years.... Pretty much no 3rd party content. If none is around already, then it's not going to happen. I wonder in way way you mean that it's getting there?
     
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  6. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    There are a few 3rd party routes and locos in TSW but nowhere near what TSC has. 3 add-ons have been created by Rivet Games (Arosa Linie, IoW and a German shunter) and there's Cane Creek on the horizon from TSG.

    The issues with TSW content are that a) it's built using unreal engine and not many people have experience with it and b) Unreal is owned by Epic Games and they don't like the editing software to be distributed outside of the original licence holder (in this case DTG) except in certain circumstances.
    There will never be a public editor for TSW for route creation etc because of the above reasons.

    Now, there are a few people who have created mods for TSW2 (skybox, ballast, fences etc) but they are completely unofficial and DTG can't take responsibility for said mods.
     
  7. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Is that really 3rd party though... I mean really? So 3 in three years... woohoo!... only a couple of thousand years before it catches up then :)
     
  8. Aryffordd

    Aryffordd Guest

    Great video, Pookeyhead, watched it from top to tails. You should do more comparisons like that, it’s fascinating to see the subtle and not-so-subtle differences between the real and virtual routes.
     
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  9. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I'd be intersted to know if all routes are this accurate. I know some are not. Woodhead in Blue springs to mind... although I still love that route. We can assume anything by OTS is going to be, considering the accuracy they strived for in Northern Lines Electric. Although the non-electric (Northern Linesv2.0) one was not period accurate, even if the line and signalling were technically correct... the buildings and scenery were clearly showing some period specific errors.
     
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  10. Nick Y

    Nick Y Well-Known Member

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    TSW will never catch up with TSC though. DTG only want to hire experienced UE coders to build routes and locos.
    There are nowhere near enough programmers experienced enough with UE.

    Anyway, back to the original topic, A lot of routes are as accurate as they can be with the given tools but there are routes out there that are shoddy too (including some payware routes).
     
  11. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    My original post in this thread was in response to the topic in the thread (accuracy of route building and comparison with real life) - indicating that I strongly agree that TS2012 has until now, better immersive qualities than TSW, overall, in my opinion. And a better look (to my eye), with respect to detailing and colour palette.

    To answer your specific question, TSW has very recently had some massive improvements in the line-up, with some fairly striking products:

    - DB BR 101, with a compellingly good simulation of the power curve, and immersive visual/audio elements;
    - Clinchfield reproduced in TSW is actually better looking than the slightly earlier TS2012 version (wrt vegetation); and
    - BR Class 465 was made with audio standards that went beyond the usual (possibly with the help of AP).

    TSW is (very slowly) getting there, because of these recent extremely welcome developments in (convincing) simulation, visuals, and audio, leading to a strongly immersive experience (in these examples).

    But mostly, as I had previously said in my original post.... it is TS2012 that has, overall, a "more realistic" feel to it (especially for more recent routes, say after 2014....) and this is largely because (for me), TS2012 has the ability to have more light sources without extreme performance penalty - and this is especially important to me, as I like to run in rainy/evening/dark conditions, so I like to see reflections of lineside equipment. I also prefer the colour palette and skies in TS2012 (even without AP enhancements).

    To answer your point - you are right - user generated content, as third party content, in TSW, is generally unavailable. This could mean that route builds in TSW do not benefit from the potential for users to create and add numerous detailed route specific assets - this is potentially an important and relevant point.
     
  12. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Why do you keep writing TS2012?
     
  13. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    In my experience, it is the payware routes that are worse. I think maybe because the freeware routes are a labour of love, with no release deadlines or commercial considerations to meet.
     
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  14. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Because, as I understand it.... "TS2012" was the first time that "TS20xx" was used to re-brand Railworks 3.

    I don't like using TSxxxx or TS20xx. And using TS2020, TS2019, etc., seems too specific (because they are really references to a set of three route DLCs for the previous year.... like...WTF...?). And I don't like using the "latest date" for TS, such as (at time of writing)... "TS2021" because that suggests that the game is relatively modern, as if it was designed in the year 2021, which is obviously a load of communitying bollards. I am also not keen on the phrases "TS1" or TS Classic" or "TS Iconic"..... etc.

    I would prefer to call DTG's "MS Windows only" train simulator product "Railworks 3", but I don't want to confuse it with Railworks or Railworks 2.....

    So, I settled on "TS2012". It conveys all the information that I want it to. Nobody has had a problem with it so far.... although I can feel a tingle down my spine suggesting that this is now coming.... because... shock horror... I have been open about my thinking (which could well have flaws in it), and putting my head above the parapet, rather than leaving a vague non-committal sniping statement..... (and I am not referring to you, BTW - you always seem to me to be perfectly reasonable).
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
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  15. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Then why not just call it Train Simulator? LOL. Saying TS2012 is just as confusing as all the other examples you give.

    As the receiver of the message, I can assure you it does not. I just assumed you had a habitual typing error.

    It wasn't a sniping statement, it was a genuine question, and I'm not the only one asking it. Saying TS2012 is just confusing. If you don't (for some weird reason) want to call it TS2021 (despite that actually being it's name) then just call it Train Simulator, so we don't
    1. Think you've made a typo, or
    2. are actually talking about TS2012 (which is NOT the same game as TS2021 at all.. it's had many core updates.)
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  16. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Aaaah... okay - thanks for the feedback....! I might go with "Train Simulator" in future..... ;-)

    I wish DTG would simply call it that - although I expect we will see Train Simulator 2022 soon enough, in which case "TS2012" won't look so much like a typing transposition error..... We'll see. Maybe they will call this year's release "TS 2122" because it will include a revolutionary core update that you would normally only expect once every 100 years - and it will include technology brought back in time from the 22nd century, purely to help us enjoy trains..... ;-)

    I do quite like typing "TS2012" though. So, I would miss it...

    I know, I already said that I am not referring to you. You asked a straightforward and perfectly fair question, and I answered it. I don't have an issue with you at all (even if I sometimes disagree with you about the relative merits of TSW, and/or what constitutes a "simulator")... you are always prepared to discuss and clarify - but others aren't so inclined....
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  17. ntypeman

    ntypeman Active Member

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    Look on the bright side... You'll save yourself the effort of 4 key presses every time you go to type it... :cool::D

    Eric
     
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  18. TimeSlicedDanny

    TimeSlicedDanny Active Member

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    I think we are all agreed that TS can be made to look more realistic than TSW.

    When are DTG going to drop that dead donkey?
     
  19. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Yeah - "TS" could be the way to go.... but maybe that could get confused with TSW not being written properly .... so it could be confused with Train Sim World, or Train Sim World 2020, or Train Sim World 2, or Train Sim World 2 Rush Hour 2022......

    or indeed... LOL... and I can't believe this listing is still on XBox Store (but it is my all time favourite.....).... Train Simulator World....:

    https://www.microsoft.com/en-gb/p/train-simulator-world/9nv7ww3kfv6v?activetab=pivot:overviewtab

    I think I am going to stick with "TS2012" - it has "TS" in it - and it is clear that I am talking about a game made circa 2011, out of the ashes of a previous game from 2007. Probably. .... ;-)
     
  20. NEC Railfan

    NEC Railfan Well-Known Member

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    I have to say, this was pretty impressive, and I actually think that when it comes to routes, you Brits have the upper hand. The only truly accurate American route would be the New York Division: Bergen Line route, which the creator (Mineman146) has spent 5 years making so far, and it's just about done except for a solid beta testing time.

    I do think DTG's recent routes are actually quite good at being eye candy, and they've definitely upped their vegetation game, however a lot of it is so inaccurate. Take Seabrook, Maryland on the Washington-Baltimore route. I've been doing an attempt to backdate the route to before the Northeast Corridor Improvement plan (NECIP) was completed in the mid 80s. A previously existing station was Capital Beltway, which used a unique system of gauntlet track at each end of the station, perhaps because of freight clearances. When I went to build this route however, I came across the fact that when compared to the google maps overlay, a lot of it was off, like for example an entire salt mountain (stockpile thing) not even being existent in the editor, despite there being assets for such. Also when placing the roads for the previously existing grade crossings, I found the poor condition of the roads as well.
     
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  21. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Anyway, now that I have my nomencalture settled for TS2012.... (sorry about that...), I can now say this about the thread's topic:..... >>

    .......I have always found TS2012 to be more immersive, in terms of the environment, than TSW. And by a very large margin. TS2012 has (to my eye, and in my opinion....), especially in relation to routes made after about 2014.....:

    - a more pleasing colour palette (usually... although sometimes the vegetation can be a very odd green... LOL...!);
    - better lighting and shadow management (and more lights with more effective light sources, with nicer temperatures...);
    - nicer skies that seem more like they are on Earth, rather than another planet, or some post-apocalyptic Earth;
    - better middle distance scenery (and more of it - check out South London Network's rows and rows of houses);
    - better environmental audio (distant sounds, like other trains);
    - no truly horrific LOD events;
    - less disturbing pop-in of assets, or shadow distance/radius pop-in....;
    - more AI, with smoother FPS, and no AI portalling in directly in front of you (like on GWE in TSW);
    - more detail in terms of variety of assets (I guess they are still building a TSW library), and I think that the details can make a huge difference in building up the scene, such as track furniture, p-way maintenance lighting, debris, etc....;
    - a better seating position/perspective for driving (almost always - I have no idea why this is - it could be a scaling issue...?); and,
    - a better vertical perspective, you actually get a good (realistic) appreciation of steep gradients, whereas TSW always seems very very flat - even on Arosa.... LOL.... !!

    TS2012 has another massive advantage - the rolling stock and the environment are better matched to each other, so your brain is more prepared to accept the more consistent (and more realistically bland) environment. Sometimes, in TSW, a hyper reflective photo-realistic loco standing in front of a very poor low resolution matte textured building (often lifted directly from TS2012) looks really very wrong - it reminds you that it isn't real, by giving you the direct comparison in front of your face. Imagine real world actors appearing in a cartoon, or cartoon characters appearing in real life acting - the incongruity stands out and breaks the immersion constantly - whereas you can actually immerse yourself in something that is solely a cartoon, animation, rotoscope, etc. TS2012 graphics are, of course, much better than a cartoon.... ;-)

    But you can walk around in TSW. And there is something that is just right when you walk alongside a train at track level, in TSW.

    I like both TS2012 and TSW, for very different reasons. TS2012 is currently the simulator for now... but TSW is getting there....very quickly. But TSW might never ever have good lighting and shadow management more than 15m away from the camera view, at any time of the day/night, or have a good range of light sources.

    .......... all that said - the video in the OP at the top of this thread is quite amazing. It would be interesting to see a three way comparison of London-Faversham (TS2012), SHS (TSW 2) and real life, to see how they match up (bearing in mind the assets in SHS are basically the same as the ones in TS2012)..... I think that you will find that TS2012 looks more realistic than TSW 2..... just my opinion......
     
  22. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Anyone know where I can get me a copy of this TS2012? I do love me a retro game.


    (Sorry I know I'm on your snipers list of habitually offending the ever so easily offendable but it's what I chose to go with so it suits me so there it is :))
     
  23. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Yep, clear as mud at midnight, thank you for your eye glazingly detailed explanation. :)
     
  24. synthetic.angel

    synthetic.angel Well-Known Member

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    Oh, no worries - my pleasure - no need to thank me - but I do thank you for your helpfully kind contributions, as always. Thanks. And thanks again.

    But since you are here, if you don't mind my asking.... what did you think of the video and commentary posted by Pookeyhead in the OP at the start of this thread, comparing TS2012 to real life footage (and to TSW). Do you have any opinions about them... do you have any thoughts about the topic at all....?
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  25. triznya.andras

    triznya.andras Well-Known Member

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    Depends on specifics I guess. We all know that ECML Newcastle-York is perfectly accurate and pretty. /s
    I think freeware route builders have an advantage: they aren't shipping assets. I've just played BR's ECML and it combines foliage from multiple routes and it's really nice. Same can be done with buildings, although I didn't overanalyse specifics.
    Heck, it's the same with scenarios. Having to split the content into core route and some additional trains denies the authors from creating nice, versatile scenarios.
    ... And, unless you can share assets between DLC, the game overgrows.

    For me it would be 100% sensible to have a fallback system of sorts where you could define, say, a type of tree that you use and if it doesn't exist, it uses another, unless that is missing, too. Same with trains. Think about the recent JustTrains Steam releases, would be nice if they used certain liveries, without having to supply 10 fallback versions of the scenario for those who don't this or that.
     
  26. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Haven't watched it yet, I work nights and I'm just heading out now, I could watch it on my phone but I doubt that'd do it the justice it deserves so I'll wait till I'm off and watch it on my PC. :)
     
  27. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    It is completely do-able and it's just lazy (or more likely "there's nothing in it for us") coding on DTG's part, they could have it fall back to kuju assets if something was missing with very little effort, if the game engine can tell you via a popup message that such and such is missing then it sure as hell can replace said asset with another stock asset.
     
  28. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    I think that would be extremely problematic to implement, and also woudl mean that the author, effectively has no control over how their work is seen. I personally would not like that. If I designed a route to look a certain way, that's how I woudl want it to be seen by all. If I'd spent ages making custom assets, only for most people to run my route with a load of Kuju nastiness in place of what I'd spent months creating, I'd be extremely disappointed actually. I doubt very much that many developers would agree to such a thing.
     
    Last edited: May 20, 2021
  29. brummie

    brummie Active Member

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    Wow, watched some of the video and sometimes the sim looked more real than the real deal, awesome comparison, thanks for sharing that.
     
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  30. benhhng

    benhhng Member

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    The Trenton station seems don't have stairs, also several freight line at the south of Trenton seems not take place.

    On the other hand, the Racetrack of Chicago, there are some station that the platform is split by the level crossing, and the passenger trains just open the door on one of the platform. Why they cannot regarded as one platform? Should the scenario be more near the reality?
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2021
  31. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    That's a question for whoever designed the route.
     
  32. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    It was TS2021, which has had many core updates since 2012 :)
     
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  33. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    I get what your saying and I agree, tbh I was more focused on rolling stock replacement than actual scenery assets, and that's already in-game, that pretty tree is now a milk bottle. :D:D
     
  34. Pookeyhead

    Pookeyhead Well-Known Member

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    Yes.. to alert you that there is a missing asset. If a tree was replaced by another tree... you'd never know :) ...you'd just wonder why this amazing new route everyone was raving about was full of crappy Kuju assets :)
     
  35. Reef

    Reef Well-Known Member

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    Yeah I know why the milk bottles are there mate, I'm not that new to this..
    If anyone wondered that then maybe they should just stick to console games like... I dunno TSW?
     
  36. NEC Railfan

    NEC Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Trenton Station is on the original Railworks 2 route NEC: New York - Philadelphia which is known for its horrid portrayal as well as low quality, so low in fact it was pulled from the Steam store in 2015 for an overhaul, even though almost all of it looks the same from the old RW2 recordings on Youtube.

    As for the Racetrack, it's not possible due to the way the game registers platforms, and there's no way to alter that, though I'd certainly give it a try, in theory one could connect the two with an invisible platform, but then you'd have people walking around the railroad crossing and if it's a high level platform, floating in the air. In essence, platforms will only work properly in TS if:
    - It's one continuous piece (no welds)
    - is long enough to support a prototypical amount of cars, and may need to be even slightly longer since tolerance is non-existent with this game.
     
  37. benhhng

    benhhng Member

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    Also, the Newark platform 2, the Philly side don't recognize as platform, and the Viewliner car seems don't have inside camera.
     
    Last edited: May 22, 2021
  38. NEC Railfan

    NEC Railfan Well-Known Member

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    - Well I'm going to have to see about that, is it on the Northeast Corridor route or the North Jersey Coast Line?
    - You can make a passenger camera for yourself, albeit it will be of the same quality as what you can see from the exterior model, aka not that great. https://railworksamerica.com/index.php/learning/tutorials/item/232-changing_adding_cab_cameras
     
  39. trev123

    trev123 Active Member

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    IHH Iron Horse House is using the Unreal Engine for his Train simulator scenarios which have nothing to do with DTG or TS2021 but are complete stand-alone scenarios.

    The biggest grumble with TS either TS2021 or TSW 1 or 2 AFAIK is the physics of the trains compared to real-life by people who have driven trains in real life. Me, I wouldn't know as I have never driven a train. Anyway, the physics in most if not all sims cannot match what they are like in real life. I fly flight simulators and the physics in them are not true to real life and I would know having piloted aircraft in real life. General aviation aircraft.
     
  40. benhhng

    benhhng Member

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    It is the Amtrak one.
     
  41. benhhng

    benhhng Member

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    One more thing on the New York- Philadelphia NEC is that the New York Penn station don't have the tunnel of Empire Connection, and the tunnels of the East River just made like turnback sidings. But the Penn Station of Croton-Harmon line is more realistic, though the Empire Connection is "starred", but Tunnels of East and West are here, the East River Tunnel even reached the Long Island and let the Sunnyside Yard take place, the line can even extend and reached the CSX Oak Point Yard, it is not just Croton-Harmon line ! Simulate everything along, not just simulate the main character, this is the simulation!
     
  42. NEC Railfan

    NEC Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Well you are comparing a 2011 route to a 2019 route, so...
     
  43. KoeleKoen

    KoeleKoen Well-Known Member

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    As a real train driver tsw is hit and miss, sometimes it gets close other times it's not even near realistic, ts classic is physics wise not even remotely accurate (dtg stock that is, not including 3rd party)
    The vectron from ts classic made me laugh out loud at how bad that is and having a "pro label" I think the main issue is the same for aviation, you need to feel the thing you're operating, it's a whole other world feeling the reactions and forces, i assume it's even more so with flying a plane, a static desk chair and some numbers on a screen can't translate the handling that well, most of the time i'm not even looking at the brake pipe pressure, it's pure on feeling.
     
  44. benhhng

    benhhng Member

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    So I think the NY-Philly should be remake, maybe make a dlc from Washington to Boston.:D
    Also the rolling stock should be new, some fellas complain that the cars in latest NEC dlc is using old cars.

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Also, I think the Amfleet cab car may suitable for the TS :

    [​IMG]
     
  45. 749006

    749006 Well-Known Member

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    Tried running the AEM7 off the NEC NY-PYL on New York - New haven and it does not see the signals
    And the ACS64 does not properly see the signals on NEC NY-PYL
     
  46. benhhng

    benhhng Member

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    It is a strong reason to make a Washington-Boston route with new cars.
     
  47. NEC Railfan

    NEC Railfan Well-Known Member

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    Or upgrade all signals on the original routes to Washington-Baltimore standards.
     

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