So When Can Expect To See The Likes Of Just Trains Making Routes And Locos In Tsw2?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by davejc64, Sep 14, 2021.

  1. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Except... users praise devs for what they want to use (same as you did above, the "It works for me, who cares about anyone else" argument)
    They don't think about the wider ramifications
    So as an example people tout Armstrong Powerhouse as the epitome of developers for TS1, and indeed their assets and sounds are great, but the way they run their scenario requirements certainly isn't. I don't want to have to buy all their assets to run a scenario, and I don't want to have to have a separate editor to sub in assets that aren't theirs either.

    So generally 3rd party content CAN be fine, but public content generally isn't, and in a game which has a longevity about it (look at TS1, over ten years of content available) knowing that the devs aren't going to bugger off or break it themselves is important (as important as DTG themselves)
     
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  2. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    I think DTG have gotten themselves into a bit of a pickle here. When you look back at MSTS, Rail Simulator and Train Simulator, there is a large number of both 3rd party and Spin-off developers making routes and locos and creating an enormous catalog of player content. That doesn't include the huge list of "Steam Workshop" creations over the years.
    Sure, the quality may be uneven, but this expansion of available content is what has driven the hobby forward. There are probably dozens of creative people out there who might want to continue this expansion with TSW.
    Unfortunately, the lack of a public editor and the difficulty of mastering UE4 has stymied this process.
    This is not all DTG's fault, but the choice of game engine and its licensing issues will likely retard any expansion similar to previous iterations of the game.

    The other side of that coin is that DTG largely control the output, and therefore the quality of content in the game and maybe that's the point. Third party quality will get better over time, but, for the moment, we have to admit, that, as shown by the last couple of releases, when they bring their A game, DTG can produce content of superlative quality.
     
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2021
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  3. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    Theoretically;

    Someone makes a route - say it's Berlin U-Bahn or something, then that's only on PC - No consoles.

    Then DTG would be much less likely to make that, and consoles are likely never going to get it.

    Then, well then PC (A Minority) has more than the majority.

    Also, I know someone is going to say (again) "but pc has mods!" Mods are almost always cosmetic, and if not they are never huge changes, like fully new content.
    Thats not an issue imo. But whole routes, locos etc? No thanks. Let's keep the playing field somewhat level.

    Also, I like the idea of an editor, but if it means certain people are left behind - no chance.

    Get 3rd parties involved, JT, Union Workshop, all that stuff - that's the best way to do it, in my opinion.
     
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  4. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    I still can't understand. I am asking you why you believe that if only a part of the playerbase might have acces to something, than nobody should have it. Have you considered that it might make the PC playerbase bigger? Many people shun TSW because there's no editor.
     
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  5. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    It'll make the PC Playerbase bigger and just kick Console in the face.

    I wish it was the case that everyone could have it, but it is not console comparable, and thus a choice to be made.

    Leave Console in the mud?
    Or keep everyone level?

    I wish we had an editor - even though I'd hardly use it, but as an Xbox user, I don't want to see us, or PlayStation, left behind.
     
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  6. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    That's never gonna happen. The console userbase will always be bigger, but now I can understand your point of view. Thanks.
     
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  7. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    I think the answer is wait and see.
     
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  8. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    MSFS Xbox users have to accept that some third party aircraft/scenery will not come to consoles. Don't know why it's different for TSW ...
     
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  9. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    I thought that the newer consoles were more aligned to the PC than older consoles. Perhaps one day modded assets and editors can be made so they work on multiple platforms or require less hassle to transfer.
     
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  10. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    Well considering that if you buy TSW 2 from the Microsoft store for PC you also get it for Xbox and vice versa if you buy it for Xbox you also get the Microsoft store version for PC and that applies if you but the addons too from the Microsoft PC store or Xbox store and I expect if third party content was on the Microsoft or Xbox store that would apply too.
     
  11. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Well i think they all work with passion. Maybe some decisions made in the management could kill a product, in the end those kind of business decisions arent easy at all.

    Just push products with dollar eyes doesnt work in the end.
    If rivet is gonna fix the bugs in arosa im ok with it. On the island line they did.

    Dtg is doing that with the preserved team. So its not 100% true that they dont care about quality.

    I mean for the price of the season pass we got a lot.
     
  12. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    No, you don't. I started on XBox and had to re-purchase everything for PC.
     
  13. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    The discusion about the consoles and pc is a never ending thing.

    Im a pc user only, at least a benefit we all have is, that products dont get messy and keep an overall stage from platform to platform.

    In terms of bugs a relevant benefit.
     
  14. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    That's funny because I bought the Microsoft store version of tsw 2 for pc and was able to download for xbox too, so I do know what I am talking about.
     
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  15. fabristunt

    fabristunt Well-Known Member

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    DTG is releasing bugged products (some more than others) on day one only to maybe fix them at an unknown later date. Yeah, that screams "Quality matters to us"...
     
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  16. trainsimplayer

    trainsimplayer Well-Known Member

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    You're correct in saying the base game can be downloaded on PC, however I think there was a slight missundertanding here, I believe solicitr was refering to DLCs, which are missing on PC's Xbox version.
     
  17. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    So are the 3rd parties and public devs...
     
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  18. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    TSG doesn't or at least, very few bugs compared to DTG stuff.
     
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  19. rat7_mobile

    rat7_mobile Active Member

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    So far there no DLC by TSG, so it can not be judge
     
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  20. fanta1682002

    fanta1682002 Well-Known Member

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    yes
     
  21. davejc64

    davejc64 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately that is common practice in the software and gaming industry mainly due to the "We want it immediately if not sooner" attitude of the software/gaming community, you only have to look on the plethora of forums for various software/gaming developers to see that as soon as something is announced you get the "When's it going to be released" and the "where is it" posts, you only have too look on here too, when the release day on here for anything arrives as soon as its a stroke past midnight you get the "well its whatever date and its not downloading yet?" so developers of anything are under immense pressure to release something as soon as they can or the whinging begins.
     
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  22. Jinoss17

    Jinoss17 Well-Known Member

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    SCS software is a good example of a software house that doesn't care about "When it's going to be released" and everytime there's a new release from them, it's almost flawless. And if there's something wrong, fixes come very very quick.
     
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  23. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Every release has bugs. The more i search the more im gonna find them.

    For me important is: tsw2 is actually a cool experience
    Well true. About the bugs i have to say as long im enjoying tsw2 i can live with them if they are minor and not game braking.

    As example: there are sections in tvl / ntp where the speed signs are missing. Would be nice if they get fixed, but to be honest i have a speedchart with other recognize criterias and with 70mph at night you are not gonna see the old br speedsigns anyway.

    For me this sim in a unreal engine is just i giant step forward. Didnt we all complain about we cant move around on foot 6 years ago? :)
     
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  24. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    As long as they finish the midland mainline series of routes first!
     
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  25. OldVern

    OldVern Well-Known Member

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    My only concern about Just Trains is that, at least for their older TS routes, the quality was not brilliant relying on default rolling stock in particular to service the routes. Also haven't they started binning projects, for example Perth to Inverness which was one I would definitely have gone for, because they didn't feel there would be enough demand.

    Also important to bear in mind that JT are essentially a publisher rather than a producer and I suspect the majority of the stuff they sell is produced by third parties and all they do is add the polish for the final release. So for JT to do TSW2 stuff, they would also have to agree that DTG supply the tools to those who do the actual route, train and scenery creation.
     
  26. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Tsw 2 is a new era. The entire features and details of the rolling stock has improved.
    Just Trains has to come up to be whats expected (in other words the highly detailed producs out yet), else it doesnt get a buy..
     
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  27. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Well-Known Member

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    Part 1 out of 2 (see my next comment below #91)

    I decided to email a few third party devs and asked them if they would join DTG to make content for TSW 2. I contacted JustTrains,TrainworX, virtualRailroads, ChrisTrains, 3DZug, Armstrong Powerhouse, and RSSLO.

    JustTrains
    FC852FF3-686D-415A-9291-EFD8C0468FE4.jpeg

    virtualRailroads
    C00D1C82-9F3B-44D8-8B97-1DC429E2AFFA.jpeg

    ChrisTrains
    62FBBACD-E5B6-4B2F-BE32-0D9ACA5BA524.jpeg

    3DZug
    621D9169-AD0C-49B3-A7DC-6F79F7B3FA3C.jpeg

    Armstrong Powerhouse
    06EF73AC-E211-49F8-B0B6-2D0F43338480.jpeg



    Edit 1: Added more email responses.
    Edit 2: Armstrong Powerhouse to the list.
    Edit 3: Got a response from TrainworX. I couldn’t add more than 5 files so I needed to reply again. See my next comment below #91. “You may not upload any more files with this message. You may attach 5 files in total”.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2021
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  28. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I'd love to see the variety more 3rd party devs could bring to the game. However, judging from some reactions of the devs, it's a tricky situation with TSW. I do think it is essential for TSW's long term survival to provide more varied content (made by 3rd parties), but it seems unlikely to come soon. However I hope the roadmap next week tells otherwise :).
     
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  29. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Some very interesting comments there, especially from ChrisTrains. DTG need to make their pipeline a lot easier and efficient so that changes can be incorporated and more people can get stuck in. We've seen some amazing mods already and an unofficial editor, the dam is about to burst :D

    Without working on this, I fear for the longevity of the game frankly. TS still has the depth and many more people working on it such that the gap in content will only increase rather than decrease. We've seen the issues that an engine upgrade produces, to the point where you wonder exactly how much of the existing TSW2020 content will make it through the next engine upgrade. They could be looking at less content rather than more. The way you can't even just mix and match locos with consists and everything being tied to a specific DLC is also very restrictive.

    Unfortunately, some of these issues would appear to be fundamental to the core design of the product. It doesn't scale very well.
     
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  30. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    Only on PC, and that's the problem. Everyone working on mods right now isn't considering the console market, something which DTG have to do.
     
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  31. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    The Just Trains reply with the results of their survey shows an issue with only surveying your current customers as to whether they should make content for something else. Those people aren’t the customers for TSW2, that’s a whole other bunch of people, even if there is a small crossover on PC. They could be persuaded if they knew how many more copies of their content they could sell if it was made for TSW2 instead of TS.

    EDIT - Chris Trains hasn’t multiplied his final unit income by the increased number of units sold either in his estimation of income, despite being eager to show the maths. The development might be more tricky but he would be entering a bigger market and could potentially sell ten times the number of DLC as he does with TS. The only way to know for sure is to give it a go. A big step of course.
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2021
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  32. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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  33. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I doubt that's the only way to know for sure. Looking at what other third parties do might also be reliable information. We know Rivet made the move to make content for TSW. Despite the mixed reviews, apparently it sells good enough to keep making more content for TSW. I doubt they'd to that if making content for good old Train Simulator was more profitable. And now Skyhook is working on their second TSW route as well. Do these third parties even still create content for Train Simulator, effectively making stuff for both games, or did they completely stop their TS business and made the move to TSW completely?

    Sure, for smaller parties the costs to get started may be relatively high, but that doens't mean it won't be worth it in the long run. I guess they may be a bit more cautious and wait for the bigger third parties to make the move first.

    Besides, I doubt the market and playerbase for Train Simulator is getting any bigger. I wouldn't be surprised if they see their income on TS DLC slowly decrease as time passes.
     
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  34. UnlimitedMagic

    UnlimitedMagic Well-Known Member

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    Interesting.
     
  35. jolojonasgames

    jolojonasgames Well-Known Member

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    I defintely agree with your view that past the (high) initial hurdles, TSW content does seem (more) profitable.

    TS also won't be growing in playerbase anymore, whereas TSW still has potential, partly due to the inclusion of the console market aswell.
     
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  36. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    I woudln't assume that. People are still very much likely to go from TSW to TS1 and vice versa depending on their want from a sim. The scenario and consist editting in TS1 is much more powerful than TSW, and the range of routes and assets is much much much more in TS1, so even with it's downsides it has a lot going for it
     
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  37. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Interesting comments indeed, I find it a bit fascinating though that the player base in these forums have a thread screaming for more third party developers and yet there is another thread the eviscerates two third party developers that have taken the leap to develop for TSW2, even to the obligatory suggestion to sue them for their products being “not fit to purpose”.

    If I was developer for a niche market making a decent business and facing a very step learning curve to be able develop for a new niche market product and read through these forums, I would be very hesitation to make the jump since the vocal minority quite present. My first project would have to perfect to avoid the treatment Skyhook and Rivet are getting by many in these forums… knowing the rather sharp learning curve, expense for having to develop for 3 platforms and uncertainty of profitability, that perfection would be a tall order indeed.

    Just an observation from an old man who has been reading the forums since the beginning…..anyway, my first cup of coffee is finished, so time to go make a run on TSW2 before I need to busy with RL stuff….
     
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  38. olikas.g

    olikas.g Member

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    Since you mention the "vocal minority", I'd like to show that there is a silent part who likes the game despite the problems. I bought several DLC's and every now and then I play the game (I wish to spend more time but life has a different opinion). To stay tuned on what content is created that may interests me, I follow the forums and the streams. I also like to learn about trains and operations about which this forum has quite some quality content, BUT... Finding that quality content in the constant noise of people shouting that "the game is unplayable" is very frustrating. I'll be honest reading the forums ruined the game for me a bit. (A wise man once said that if you wanted to stop enjoying the game, then join the community around it.) As much as people have the right to express their opinion, I'd wish one person could express their opinion only once. Like this thread... how many different threads are there where the exact same "bugs" and wishes are discussed? How many of those are from the same people like here?

    So yes, "we the community" want to expand the player base and wish success and at the same time "we the community" grab every possible opportunity to "give feedback" about how unplayable the game is. So yeah, give feedback but don't spoil the well.

    Now I go drink my afternoon coffee ;)
     
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  39. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    I know the silent majority in these forums and the greater player base that never visits these forums are enjoying the game.. in-fact the most vocal long term detractors also must find some enjoyment in this hobby else wise, why are they still around?

    I just wish we would get away from this "pack" mentality of someone, usually, responsibly point out a discrepancy, then others jump in seemingly trying to top the last poster on their loathing for the management, decision made or their opinion how said discrepancy should have been avoided or even the route on how to repair.

    Should known better to expect more in forums - has been this way since the days of Bulletin Board Systems and Usenet... I must admit -- with members such as LondonMidland and many others that provide reasoned responses as well as putting their technical expertise to the betterment of the community - it still is worth one's while to peruse these missives.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2021
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  40. driverwoods#1787

    driverwoods#1787 Well-Known Member

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    Absolutely correct now we can have Just Trains come in with Metropolitan Line MML Sheffield Yorkshire down to Derbyshire Derby Hope Valley Line.
     
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  41. Lunar_Twisted

    Lunar_Twisted Well-Known Member

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    Part 2 out of 2 (see my previous comment #77 for part 1)

    TrainworX

    40084A7A-DEA4-4F60-A632-E89781C6D787.jpeg

    RSSLO
    A276BA60-E07D-4B50-BD7A-024C54D0C7FE.jpeg

    Edit: Added an email response from RSSLO. I didn’t notice it was in my spam this whole time.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  42. meridian#2659

    meridian#2659 Well-Known Member

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    Thats why i keep supporting rivet, even when they made mistakes and are far away from being perfect. They produce really good rolling stock, and that they can make routes we can see in cathcart circle.

    According to the difficult bussiness about tsw2 and third party devs, it would be sad to see anybody of them giving up (or never starting) on producing content.
    I recommend DTG should care about a software Development kit, so tsw 2 has a chance to surive longterm.

    TS has a giant amount of dlc. The main problem is, that many of the released dlcs got never touched again and end up in a buggy state. With the system of the preservation crew of dtg, the content is kept updated. Im sure there will be the point as example the cl.56 grid will release, so to add the layers in the different routes matching the time period could give "old" routes a new experience.
     
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  43. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I supported Rivet with buying Arosa because I appreciate them doing a route that isn't from the same old countries. I also got the BR204 and Isle of Wight and I do not regret my purchases.

    I can't remember TS DLC ever getting into a buggy state. Either it was bugged from release, or it never had bugs. TS DLC never being updated at least means you know what you're buying and it'll always run as good or bad as it ever did.

    It's nice that the preservation crew are updating older DLC, but lets not forget that the core engine updates (both the recent UE4.26 update and whatever version they updated when going from TSW2020 to TSW2) have caused plenty of problems and new bugs. And it usually does take a fair bit of time for them to fix those bugs. (And sometimes, fixing one bug, causes another one).

    Don't get me wrong, I'm very happy to see DTG spending resources into updating older content, really I am. It just sometimes has its side-effects...
     
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  44. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    GEML developed a bug over time where it always crashed outside Stratford. Was reported loads on the TS1 forum back in the day. Didn't happen originally but with newer DLC adding into scenarios the thing just stopped and fell over
     
  45. martschuffing

    martschuffing Well-Known Member

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    I am happy to support a dev but I can't just accept any old thing! After all, it is my hard-earned money they want so I expect it to be fit for purpose if it isn't then I am going to make my dissatisfaction known if that upsets a few people on here so what, nothing to do with them? And if the same mistakes/bugs keep happening by said devs in their products then my politeness and constructive feedback will wane and eventually I won't purchase from them again, that speaks louder than any words if a dev can't be bothered to fix things. Just Trains for example only delivered products up to a low standard, repeat and constant use of Kuju assets rows and rows of exactly the same trees very poor trackwork (that's where the Just Trees nickname came from) but now, since the Midland mainline routes there is no comparison in quality and now I very much look forward to their offerings and is a first-day purchase for me.

    If devs in TSW2 aren't prepared to up their ante as far as quality is concerned then they won't get my custom, so no it isn't a case of treading lightly with people that want my hard-earned cash, polite and constructive yes but being a sheep, no way.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  46. fabdiva

    fabdiva Well-Known Member

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    I think we've hit a similar point to the flight sims a while ago - it was possible for small teams or individuals to make Basic aircraft, but now things have moved on and with the higher technical capability of TSW and the New Consoles the amount of work needed has increased to the point where developing is a full time team effort. At the same time community expectations have risen.

    It also doesn't help that the only way to release content for TSW is to partner with DTG on payware - there isn't a way for example for someone to make some basic wagons or a branch at free/low cost in order to get experience with the new tools. I suspect that is the biggest issue, the only way to build up skills is through payware, and then get crucified when a route developed by an inexperienced (with UE4/TSW) team isn't up to the high standards the community is expecting.

    Something that I've thought would be an issue is that with no community content then DTG really have to fill the gap with many more and varied scenarios, Maybe adding a few with each Pres Crew update to help keep the game fresh
     
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  47. tallboy7648

    tallboy7648 Well-Known Member

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    What you said makes me think of why a public editor would be a good thing. For consoles they may not be able to use the editor but there could be a system used via dovetail live in which console players can download content that was made by pc players and enjoy whatever they make. This would also allow third parties or members of the community to release smaller content to get feedback before doing something a bit bigger. It also will give them plenty of time to learn how to use the editor. The pipeline also needs to be made easier by dtg so more third parties can enter

    I read a thread full of complaints for rivet due to several issues not being fixed by them at all in months. It went as far as someone suggesting to sue which made me laugh because it was just ridiculous. Some of the complaints were valid though. I personally haven't purchased any rivet content in tsw2 because of the track record they seem to have made themselves nor will I ever purchase from them cause I don't really have confidence in them which is a shame considering the content that they made in ts that I own is really good.

    The problem as you pointed out for third parties that I agree with is how they can release their own content. They essentially have to release paid dlc's. This can be difficult considering if the dlc they release is not as good like the arosa line, the backlash will be huge especially when it's a $30 dlc. The expectations are high as well considering this is a game that boasts about having highly authentic recreations of routes and locos. Third parties should be held to that same standard. It may sound unfair to some but if a third party is is gonna charge $30 for a route and $20 for a train, the expectation should be the same across the board. If they can't meet that expectation when charging those prices then perhaps they shoudn't be making content for tsw.

    So i too would want to see more third parties, but it can't be a case of them releasing sub par or low quality content and then charging $20-$30 for said content and just letting them slide. There needs to be good quality in that content and if they can't do that, then maybe it's not worth them making the content. Also, DTG as the publisher should not allow releases like the arosa line from a third party to happen again. As the publisher they shouldn't be ok with third parties releasing paid content that is low quality and riddled with issues and then allow third parties to slack on bug fixes. It makes dtg look like they don't have a certain quality standard for third parties and are ok with third parties releasing low quality products so they can make a quick buck like how EA has done in the past
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2021
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  48. Purno

    Purno Well-Known Member

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    I agree that'd be ideal, but as far as I understood there's two main problems;

    1. Sharing community content along all platforms doesn't seem to be that easy, because of the way the consoles (and the companies behind them) work. This is probably why we don't have the tools to easily upload&share community created liveries and scenarios, despite the editing tools being there.
    2. The full editor (as used by DTG and 3rd parties) can't be shared because of licensing issues (I assume Epic would be one of the licensors), and thus DTG would need to find a way around that and develop their own editor, similar to the livery and scenario editors. Additionally, since DTG wants to treat all platforms equally, such an editor would need to work on all platforms. Also, it probably needs #1 fixed before it's even worth spending resources in developing #2. (After all, little point in making routes if they can't be shared across all platforms.

    But yes, it'd be super super super awesome if there'd be proper route editing tools and a workshop-alike feature to easily upload&share any community created content.
     
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  49. matinakbary

    matinakbary Well-Known Member

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    While I agree with many of your points, this one is a bit problematic. I don't think we can actually expect a very realistic route & at least one loco for just 30 bucks. 30 is almost nothing for such a big chunk of development. Even in TS DTG's price policy was seen by other devs as problematic as it was some kind of atrificially lowering the market prices to 30 for every route DLC. And if this is problematic in TS where development wasn't nearly as costly as for TSW, the TSW price policy seems to be especially bad.

    30 is waaaay to low for a route and loco, yes. I don't understand how DTG does survive that (and I am glad they do), but especially for 3rd party the price seems to be a big problem, so many devs don't even start to develop because they know exactly that they can't make any gains from selling a loco for just 13 Euros. It needs months and months of development and then they should give away their work nearly for free? That's just very problematic and in my eyes the reason why we still lack 3rd party and why e.g. Rivet's route development seems to be a bit... poor. It's not feasible for them to develop better routes at current prices.
     
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  50. ARuscoe

    ARuscoe Well-Known Member

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    And considering the bite Epic and DTG and the various stores also take out of that €13 the studio would end up with about €3 per sale
     
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