PC [solved]ntp - What Is The Max Speed Class 40 When Fully Loaded Or Empty Wagons ? Pls

Discussion in 'TSW General Discussion' started by VION, Nov 14, 2019.

  1. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Hello,
    To try to match as real things as possible, I wished to know if there was a max speed limit on the Class 40 loco when pulling Gaz Oil loaded freight wagons. Yesterday I saw the Dmitri and Matt Stream uploaded on YT channel and they said with the coming Class 31 there is a max speed 45 Mph when pulling cement wagons. I just wish to know if there is similar speed restriction for the NTP route using the Class 40 loco pulling fully loaded or empty Gaz Oil wagons please ?

    Cheers
    Gerard
     
  2. Anthony Pecoraro

    Anthony Pecoraro Well-Known Member

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  3. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Huh ?
     
  4. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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    As far as I'm aware the maximum permitted speed is 60mph. Whether you want to do 60mph is another matter entirely.
     
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  5. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Yeah may be but on the NTP route some speed limits are too 80 Mph; I only just wish to know is if as Dmitri and Matt said yesterday in the Stream does the freight consist are limited due to their load or the lenght of the train to don't overshoot i.e. 45mph for the class 31 on the Tees Valley route pulling some cement wagons. Just to know is there a limited speed on NTP for freight trains even if the maximum speed is 60 Mph. I Don't confuse the max speed limit imposed by the track and the authorized speed limit due to load or lenght freight trains and the capability to slow down in time with the brakes Equipment either air+goods or vacuum+goods. Thanks
     
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  6. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    I did a run and couldnt get above 40 on the uphill. Bearing in mind how hard it would have been to slow down (mass x velocity = momentum) i didnt get much different on the downhill either. Drive to what is safe.
    Otherwise if there is a different speed limit to the line limit it would be indicated by a form RT3973HAW which would be provided. See the following for more info..
    https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...FjADegQIBRAB&usg=AOvVaw31-2WkZ7Q4IDXIbYuTAwEX
     
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  7. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    It's the wagon design limit and restricts the speed. The oil tank wagons on NTP are 60mph design limited. The cement PCAs are 45mph by design. I think the wooden vans on NTP are 40mph limited.
    Doesn't matter on train length or loco hauling them. Realistically you can only go as fast as the slowest rated item of rolling stock on the train you are driving if that number is lower than the current line speed limit.
     
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  8. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Thank you very much for this technical document very instructive. On the first look, took me a little unuderstood but reading briefly I saw a table where speed limit in relation to the load and brake capability for 1500 tons (as the consist Class 40 + Gaz oïl full loaded wagons) and a 240 tons brake force the speed permitted is only 35/40 Mph. I will take more time to read carrefully this document. Thank you for your help. very nice.
     
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  9. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Thank you for your response. That give me a first approach how to run with the Class 40 coupled with gaz Oil wagons fully loaded. About 1500 Tons weight.
     
  10. Fitz

    Fitz Well-Known Member

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    Thank you for the above, I never thought of taking the particular loco max brake force into account.
     
  11. IsambardKingdomBrunel

    IsambardKingdomBrunel Well-Known Member

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    Most of this still applied in the BR Blue era, which includes the 31's, 40's, 45's & 47's when running freights workings in TSW.

    Train Reporting Codes - British Railways 1962

    Type HeadLamps Description
    1 |._.|

    Express passenger train, newspaper train or breakdown van train or snowplough going to clear the line or light engine going to assist disabled train. Officers' special train NOT requiring to stop in section.

    2 |_'_|

    Ordinary Passenger train, mixed train or breakdown van train NOT going to clear the line. Branch passenger train (To be used only where authorised by the regional Operating Officer).

    3 |.._|

    Parcels, fish, fruit, horse, livestock, meat, milk, pigeon or

    perishables train composed entirely of vehicles conforming to

    coaching stock requirements. Empty coaching stock train (not specifically authorised to carry '1' headcode).

    4 |.._|

    Express freight train pipe fitted throughout with the automatic brake operative on NOT less than 90% of the vehicles. Maximum speed 55 mph. A maximum speed of 60 mph will apply in respect of certain trains specifically indicated in the Working Timetable.

    5 |.'_|

    Express freight train partly fitted, with the automatic brake operative on NOT less than half of the vehicles. Maximum speed 50 mph.

    6 |_..|

    Express freight train partly fitted, with the automatic brake operative on NOT less than 20% of the vehicles. Maximum speed 45 mph.

    7 |_'.|

    Express freight train NOT fitted with the automatic brake. Maximum speed 40 mph. Where fitted vehicles are required to be placed next to the engine and coupled up, this will be shewn in the appropriate Regional train loading instructions.

    8 |_:_| Through freight train NOT fitted with the automatic brake. Maximum speed 35 mph. Where fitted vehicles are required to be placed next to the engine andcoupled up, this will be shewn in the appropriate regional train loading instructions.

    9 |__.|

    Branch train or stopping freight train and Officers' Special train or ballast train requiring to stop in section. Maximum speed 35 mph. Where fitted vehicles are required to be placed next to the engine and coupled up, this will be shown in the appropriate regional train loading instructions.

    0 |_._|

    Light engine or light engines coupled. Engine with not more than two brake vans. Maximum speed according to class of engine and type of brake van.
     
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  12. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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    The PCA wagons aren't 45mph by design, they are 60mph wagons by design:
    page 48/195 is our wagon in question
    http://www.barrowmoremrg.co.uk/BRBDocuments/Book300Part1Issue.pdf

    The TEA tank has 56 Tonnes of brake force when loaded each, and the Class 40 has 51 tonnes. Class 40 is 133 tonnes and TEA is 102Tonnes so 10x TEA + 40 would be 1151 tonnes with a brake force of 611 tonnes so in theory according to the loaded table the formation could run over 75mph according to the brake force table but the wagon itself is limited to 60mph by design.
     
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  13. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Thank you very much for the resume and your active participation on my question. Much appreciated.
    But looking at the Tank wagons which come with Heavy freight pack DLC if I remember well the tank wagons have 4 axles dispatched by two bogies. That one on the page 48 souds like the Powder tank which come with the Class 31 DLC no ? I can be wrong but I'm pretty sure that tank wagon on the heavy freight pack DLC is a four axles just to notice the difference.
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2019
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  14. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    Im genuinely finding this interesting! Just a heads up that once Vion has come up with a speed limit Im going to drive to it on my NTP oil runs because if anyone should be filling out a RT3973HAW form, its him. Im loving the attention to detail :)
     
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  15. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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  16. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Thank you. Pin pointed on the tank i was talking. But the result is the same as you said the consist with one Class 40 + 10 Tank wagons full loaded could run above 75 Mph refering the E1 table in the documented link but due to the limited speed for the Tank wagons the max speed permitted is 60 Mph. Well I'm now satisfied by all your responses and helpful documents linked. Thank you so much. I was thinking because the Class 40 have hard to pull these 10 tank full loaded wagons, it was safer to run 15 or 20 Mph below the permitted speed to be sure to stop on time such heavy load. When talking about the max brake force I think we have to apply a full service brake application on the brake valve driver to get the max brake force on the whole consist no ? Correct me please if I'm wrong please...
     
  17. VION

    VION Active Member

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    upload_2019-11-15_21-32-29.png

    In this short table what means the letters H/M/L/E does that stand for Heavy/Medium/Low/Empty please ? Otherwise VB short word I believe that stand for Vacuum Brake, AB stand for Air Brake but RA I don't know . Could you please give me some accuracies ?
     
  18. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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    yep, correct on all counts. RA is route availability.
     
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  19. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Thank you.
     
  20. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Hello,
    I wished to come back about how to calculate the permitted speed in relation of the load and brake force available.

    Reading this document on page 26 it show that :

    Brake Force.png

    On the TEA wagons we can read that about the tare weight :

    Weight TEA Wagon.png

    So tare weight as half is 27.2 / 2 = 13.6 rounded down to the whole number = 13 tonnes brake force for each TEA wagon
    i.e. if we have 9 TEA wagons coupled to one Class 40 loco the total brake force is : (13 t x 9) + 51 t for the loco brake force = 168 Tonnes of brake force for the whole consist.

    Now the great weight load is for each TEA wagon fully loaded: 74.3 t + 27.2 t = 101.5 tonnes (that is approximately a TEA wagon 102 tonnes)
    In the example we have 9 wagons so : 101.5 t x 9 = 913.5 tonnes and I add the loco weight + 135 Tonnes = 1048.5 tonnes GWL for the whole consist.

    Now reading the E1 table on the document page 52 refering to the actual brake force available:

    Max speed.png

    The actual consist in my example has 168 tonnes brake force available so is pointed between 160 and 170 on the table. If I refer to the 170 tonnes line, looking at the load it show 1060 tonnes for 35 mph maximum speed column. So with my consist of 168 tonnes brake force and 1048.5 tonnes load, my maximum permitted speed is also about 35 mph and not 60 mph.

    Drive safe and happy train.
    Cheers
    Gerard
     

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    Last edited: Nov 19, 2019
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  21. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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    Thats wrong, you only use the half weight bit if you have to prepare the documents manually and the information isn't available to you so you have to assume the worst.
    section B1 1.4
    "When TOPS-produced train formation details are available, this will be calculated by the computer, and a manual calculation and check against Table E1 is not necessary. "

    In this case the TOPS computer would spit out that each TEA has 56 tons of brake force while loaded and that the maximum speed is 60mph.
     
  22. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Humm but I doubt for my example with the Class 40 loco the computers was alive on the market. And what computers is it talked about ? Those in locos equipments or those on the TOPS regulators engineering ?
     
  23. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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  24. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Ok thats interesting. But am I wrong by manual calculating the max speed when I drive a Class 40 which is a loco used in the 1960 years when computers was not there ?
     
  25. DominusEdwardius

    DominusEdwardius Well-Known Member

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    No but you'd only go with half the tare weight if you literally had no clue what the brake force was, if you had the diagram books which I posted earlier you can clearly see each wagon is stated as 60Tonnes when loaded up to 100 Tonnes. It is also important to note the driver isn't the one preparing those logs, that is the guards job :P
     
  26. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Ok for that all. But by manual calculating against the E1 table give me more fun to play with. And in the case of the Class 40 even the wagons are built after the tops era, I find the check of pre run a more challenging and interesting thing to do.
    Thanks again for your interest and all your responses well took in care and very helpful.
     
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  27. Sintbert

    Sintbert Well-Known Member

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    I think you make a mistake by adding the tare to the fully loaded weight, isn't that already in there?
    Maybe with 74.3*9 + 135 = 803 tonnes you get a more reasonable speed?
     
  28. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    Its been interesting and enjoyable watching you tease this particular aspect out. Diligent, receptive, able to advocate own position, good communicator in what I assume is not your primary language- very impressed. Most importantly you're having fun doing it :)
     
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  29. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Not exactly the gross load weight (GLW) is to add the tare weight plus the carriying capacity weight. What is shown at the wagon plate is the carrying weight 74.3 tonnes or tons as I don't know what unity is used and the tare weight of 27.2 tonnes or tons. You have to add the two numbers to get the gross load weight of about 102 tonnes or tons exactly 101.5 tonnes which is the total weight running or pulled for each TEA wagon when heavy loaded (full loaded).
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  30. VION

    VION Active Member

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    TEA wagon diagram.png To add like DominusEdwardius said I give up with the calculation for the TEA tare half weight (when heavy loaded) checking against the E1 table and observe just the air brake force given by the diagram in his document of TOPS that give 60 Tonnes brake force for this specific TEA wagon when heavy loaded. I only add the loco brake force and calculate the total gross load weight (GLW) of the entire consist (loco+ TEA wagons) after to count how many wagon are hoocked up behind the Class 40. In all case in the timetable game scenarios where the TEA wagons are in the consist, mainly we can run it at maximum speed of the permitted wagon specification speed => 60 mph observing the track speed limit obviously.
    I think it is our TEA wagon in game with the carrying capacity of 74500 Kg and a tare of 27350 Kg which is the nearest value shown on the TEA wagon plate in game and looking at the profile it looks like it is the same: air disc and hand screw ...air disc I don't know but hand screw we can see it.
    Now I hesitate with this model with air block shoes and hand screw looking at the registration number and the wagon plate in game (87xxxx serial number):

    TEA Wagon2 diagram.png
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
  31. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Thanks for the help I found a web site where it is also described and find this very useful also:
    http://2d53.co.uk/Headcode/headcodeC.htm.
    Overring the mouse pointer on the different linked numbers give the corresponding disc headcode on the front sketch loco.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
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  32. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Yes I'm convinced that the lenght of the consist doesn't matter because each same wagon have the same braking force capacity depending of the load and they are only dependent of the speed propagation of the air reduction along the pipe line to get the braking effort on the whole consist.
     
  33. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    Mass x velocity = momentum. Significant if the braking force diverges as mass increases I suppose.
     
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  34. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Ok if I take as example a speed of 50 mph (converted in meter by second) => 80,000 meters by hour / 3600 s = 22.22 meters in one second and i have a mass of i.e. 1,101, 000 Kg i get a Momentum of => 1,101,000 x 22.22= 24,466,666.67 Kg m/s. To stop or slow down such mass x velocity I have to apply 60,000 Kg m/s braking force to lower the Momentum ?
    I rod the deceleration = (Final Velocity minus Initial Velocity) divided by time but in this formula I don't know the time value needed to slow down from 50mph to 35 mph . I don't see well the relation with braking force and the deceleration which I don't know the time value. Or I search too much complicated things XD...
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2019
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  35. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    Maybe but as a theoretical exercise its interesting to puzzle it out. Its not always straightforward as for a fixed maximum braking force, the braking distance is proportional to the square of the velocity. So there is a clear relationship between momentum, braking force and stopping distance. Determining these items, or at the very least understanding their relationship as you work through your tables, should mean that you are able to provide a gross error check on any numbers you come up with. Hardly a wasted exercise for the little grey cells ;)

    This link might help brush up the skill set.
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/bitesize/guides/zs9mfcw
     
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  36. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Ah very instructive and interesting; I rod several articles about Momentum, braking force and overall the units used but I still don't understand how to manage or use the Momentum (which is in Kg meter by second unit) and the braking force which unit is in Newton or KiloNewton by the way could be converted in Kilogramme meter by second squarred as a negative force acceleration considered. I can't see how to manage these three values "Velocity"/"Momentum"/"braking force" to get an approximate branking distance needed.
    When you say the braking distance is proportionnal to the square of the Velocity if I have i.e. a Velocity of 22.22 meters by second (running at 80 Kmph) if I up square 22.22 ² = 496.73 does this means my braking distance is 496.73 meters to stop ? And what to do with the mass ?
    I know if I twice my speed the braking distance is multiplied by four (the inverse is true when I reduce my speed by two so the braking distance is divided by four also). But how to know in advance the braking distance needed when I know my initial Velocity and the final Velocity to be at, in relation with mass (which is known). I know three elements: the velocity/braking force/mass. How to build the formula or what is the formula to estimate the braking distance needed ? my brain is confused abit sorry.

    TEA wagon Brake force.png

    And on this little table for the air brake force for the TEA wagon what is the unit of brake force used to show 60 tonnes: is there 60 000 Kg m/s² or 60 000 Kgf (Kilogramme force) as unit ? For me I convert all in Kgf unit and do the same for the Class 40 for which braking force is 508 KN = 51 801 Kgf.
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
  37. VION

    VION Active Member

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    I think to have found the right formula to be used refering in your link to get the braking distance : d = (mass x velocity squarred) / 2 x braking force. Or to be clearier "d" in meter= (0.5 x mass in Kg x velocity squarred in m/s) / braking force in Kg.m/s² or newton
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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  38. Sunscreen

    Sunscreen Guest

    That looks right from memory but its been a while.. Dont get too bogged down in the maths of it though. Use a combination of your understanding of the tables to calculate a max speed then see what your stopping distance might be based on your maths knowledge using that max speed. Then see if that speed is sensible and safe based on your experience and route knowledge. Thats about as far as i would take it without delving deep into the physics behind it. These tables though are simple things for simple people created by the engineers and scientists. They have taken these concepts and provided an interface to get the answers. Its a matter of personal taste how much you want to get into the mechanics of it. Training roles might require such knowledge but at the end of the day you are the driver and are the final defender of safety on the ground. Just because it says you can drive at 60, it might not be safe to do so.
     
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  39. VION

    VION Active Member

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    Ok nice to you for your mind report; I found on some web related train site that talking about the brake force provided in the tables refer to the emergency brake application; so driving safety it is no necessary to brake at such rate; provided by your formula in the link you posted, I can do mathematical operation but nearly easy to do to know what percent of braking force I can Apply starting from a fixed distance by example 1 000 meters (1 Km = 0.62 miles) before to have to slow down or to stop; it doesn't certainly so much accurate but give a good approach to know from a fixed distance I choose how much braking force percent I must Apply in relation with the mass/Velocity I run on a supposed flat and dry track. I find that interesting. In all case it is to have fun and learn still something while playing.

    I thank you again for your nice commentaries earlier and overall to head up me on the formula. Very happy to got such info.

    Have you too fun playing this game and your greatly appreciated participation on this thread.

    Cheers
    Gerard
     
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2019
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