South Eastern High Speed - A Rushed Made Route?

Discussion in 'PC Discussion' started by londonmidland, Jan 22, 2021.

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  1. londonmidland

    londonmidland Well-Known Member

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    Watching the livestream, I am deeply disappointed with the outcome of this route. There are various things which I have spotted have cause alarm bells to ring and for me to avoid purchasing it. Granted it is a dev build and the sounds all aren’t there yet, but there are some things which just aren’t going to be fixed.

    To me, it’s clear this route is not ready to be released, and I will explain below

    Issues:
    - Extremely shoddy track and ballast placement. Not to mention the wrong colour
    - No railway boundary fences (you can literally walk onto the railway from the road)
    - Extremely disappointing and limited timetable. No services via Ashford included
    - Dubious lighting. Specifically on the approaching and inside tunnels*
    - Dubious train motor sounds*
    - Very little ambient sounds

    Nice things:
    - Javelin model looks good
    - Functional and dynamic platform information screens
    - Brand new LED signals and design
    - Water looks slightly better than usual
    - Vegetation looks good in areas

    This is a major disappointment for me after expecting so much more. Let me know what your thoughts are of the routes below...
     
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  2. ItsYa165

    ItsYa165 Well-Known Member

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    This route needs rectifying ASAP because it's like IOW all over again, perhaps even worse with all the shortcomings.
     
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  3. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    For me the timetable is the biggest killer. I really wish DTG would put more effort into the non German timetables.

    The German content in comparison often has really good timetables.
     
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  4. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Rushed would be putting it nicely, but yeah this route needs to go back into production for a while.

    I don’t really want to go into what’s wrong with it as I’m sure the forums will fill up with it, I’m far to disappointed to go over it.

    This was very likely one of TSW’s most anticipated routes, and they’ve dropped the ball big time.
     
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  5. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    I guess DTG wanted to live up to their hit single "Train Simulator - West Coast Main Line South"
     
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  6. Mr JMB

    Mr JMB Well-Known Member

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    Needs some more streams pre-release to show the release level sounds etc.
    You could also mention the working level crossings or the PIS on the side as well as the front of the trains, all of which are new for UK and in terms of the level crossings are brand new for any route.

    Matt couldn't say what the timetable was based on, if after investigation they have accidentally used a COVID timetable then I would expect this to be changed. I suspect the 465 will be out sooner rather than later to put more variety and traffic on the route, as it comes it has 179 services. Didn't think it was a disaster though, I can't see people cancelling their pre-orders en-masse, if we are honest the Munich pre-release streams were worse as the slow down was evident even then.
     
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  7. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I must admit, watching the stream tonight (which eventually stabilised), I didn’t see or hear anything that made me think ‘this is poor!’ It could actually become my most favourite route.
     
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  8. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’m most disappointed about the stunted 375 usage. It would have been cool to drive this train into Victoria. I love the Electrostars.
     
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  9. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I’m frankly shocked that they felt it was acceptable to clone the 377 without improving the sounds.
     
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  10. bart2day

    bart2day Well-Known Member

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    I agree. Very disappointing for me too. The timetable is a joke. No depot runs (or hardly any), no local services between rochester and Gravesend and no additional services with the 465 but the biggest killer: NO services between London and Ebbsfleet lower platforms. Matt didn't even explain why. He said they would be running as AI but I didn't see any along the way. Why do DTG find it so difficult to model timetables correctly in UK routes. East Coastway: missing services from Hastings via Lewes to London; Bakerloo: missing 3/4 of the real services and now this. As LucasLCC said they only seem to bother with getting the German route's services right. Where are the rail tour services as well?

    Not to mention the 375 is just a reskinned clone of the 377. No updates to the PIS and same sounds. The new signalling and level crossings look nice but that's about it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  11. helderbrincolas

    helderbrincolas Well-Known Member

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    The throttle sounds of the 395 are the same as the 377/375. Did anyone notice that too? It bothers me so much. I hope that they fix that!
     
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  12. Mat_Jam_Ca

    Mat_Jam_Ca Well-Known Member

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    I’m going to reserve full judgement until I see more stream footage and have actually played the route. My excitement hasn’t been dampened just yet.
     
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  13. 4-COR

    4-COR Well-Known Member

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    this is definitely going to be IOW 2.0
     
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  14. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    To me the route looked fine. I am not one of those with a magnifing glass stuck to my screen scrutinising every last detail...so things like the color of the ballast or a missing fence does not bother me.

    The only thing which really struck out for me was the lack of AI traffic....so the route felt kinda lifeless. This is something which may be fixed between now and release. Matt did say though if you run a service in peak times (ie around 8am & 5pm) there is more activity.

    I'll look forward to the next stream
     
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  15. KyleL

    KyleL Well-Known Member

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    So far I'm not impressed, although I don't really have high hopes about TSW2 or it's add ons
     
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  16. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    For the sound they said it isnt finished as off yet and that they are still working on it.
    Is there really no local services between Rochester and Gravesend?
    Cant remember if they said something about it but that would be a huge disappointment.
    I think its allready sad that northfleet station isnt included even thou its only 300 meters from Ebbsfleet and probably exist as scenery anyway.
    But no services besides the Javelins after Rochester would make the route feel verry empty.
     
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  17. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Yeah, if they can't put the effort into a route that is highly anticipated, what will they put effort into.

    We did see a dev build here, but Matt didn't mention anything other than 395 sounds or polishing work being done before release, so i'm not optimistic.
     
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  18. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    My take:
    Scenery: looks great for the most part. There are some wonky and inaccurate places, but honesty every route has those so this is pretty normal. The problem are the missing fences all over the place and the wrong ballast. The vegetation is also good, certainly better than on german routes and actually not too forested.

    Timetable: is kinda poor. There should have been more HS services imo, but pay in mind you probably pass many services while in the tunnels and don't even see them.

    Sounds: are unfinished for some reason so I can't comment on that. What I could hear of the javelin sounded ok however

    New features: Functional railroad crossings are nice but not really interesting to me. The really nice surprise are the new signal flare colours which are way more accurate. I hope they fix them on German routes too.

    The route is not amazing but it's also not as horrible as people make it to be.
     
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  19. stujoy

    stujoy Well-Known Member

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    As I was watching in low resolution because it was on Steam, I can’t give a comment on things like textures. I can’t comment on sound because it’s not finished on that build. I’m also not predisposed to expecting everything to be bad and do have a sense of perspective. So here goes...

    What I saw was an okay route, nicely depicted, with fairly decent trains. Nothing stood out to make me wildly disappointed. I was expecting that there may be the odd issue with tunnel lighting as usual and there was. There was some new stuff that people have been asking for, so that’s good. I believe there are 179 playable services. Is that really so low that people can get annoyed by it? It is a TSW route, so it’s not going to be as busy as the real lines, as only the services that are depicted are included and they are usually a bit lower in numbers than the real timetable. Nothing new there. There will be loco DLC to pad the timetable out in the future. German routes are only busy because there are loads of previous routes to add layers, so we can’t really compare. I find modern UK routes to be a bit dull but this seems like it could be fun. A few things that Matt pointed out that need fixing might be done by release or in an early patch, so looking forward to seeing more.

    I might see some more bad things when I watch it in higher res but I could only get Steam to stream in potato mode. I spotted the missing fence, so maybe the world will end this weekend after all.
     
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  20. LucasLCC

    LucasLCC Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately if anything can be taken with a pinch of salt, this is the line.

    As we've learnt from the Bakerloo timetable, don't expect anything to come soon (if at all). Likewise, Crocodile on LGV...
     
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  21. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    I agree that fences are missing, ballast being the wrong colour and the lighting in places, though the lighting has been a problem in TSW from the beginning (its really an unreal engine thing) so don't know why its specifically highlighted here.

    Not sure what you mean by "shoddy" track and ballast placement? Are you saying the track is in the wrong place? I didn't see anything in the wrong place. Otherwise I have no idea what this could mean.

    With the sounds yes there were some missing but Matt mentioned many times these are very much a work in progress.

    In terms of the services it sounds like some people expected things that don't happen in real life, or that they would somehow include the sheerness-on-sea branch or the Chatham main line all the way to Victoria, which weren't mentioned on the roadmap. I mean if you seriously let yourself believe they would include these and got hyped up for that, that's on you not DTG, as they explicitly stated the route on the roadmap

    The timetable itself is mostly limited to the real services that run on the route, and Matt did mention that there are AI services that would run between St. Pancras and Ashford via the lower platforms at Ebbsfleet, just that these services were AI only and the lower Ebbsfleet platforms are not accessible. As long as the AI services are still there to make it look busier between Ebbsfleet and St. Pancras I'm not bothered. In terms of the 375 services, these run on the Rochester-Faversham part, between Rochester and Gravesend its only javelins and thameslink trains which run, so there won't be any 375s here. In terms of the Gravesend-Charing X services, they didn't mention whether they were included, and you would only be able to drive/see these a max 1 stop anyway, so why bother including them when its on such a short stretch of track.

    There are genuine complaints about the things we saw on stream definitely, in particular the ballast on the high speed part was the worst thing, I'm guessing they had already laid the track before everyone moaned about the ballast on LGV, so they didn't wanna relay it with a better ballast. However some people are acting like its the end of the world and hyper-focusing on every single detail, expecting route extensions that were never stated on the roadmap or the 375 doing services it doesn't in real life.

    Biggest annoyance for me was that the stream on steam could only broadcast in pretty shocking resolution, and kept buffering/lagging pretty constantly at the beginning.
     
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  22. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Honestly, I'm disappointed and questioning whether or not ima buy this route. There were too many questionable things I noticed during the stream, that just left me feeling like not enough time was put into this route.

    Come on DTG, you can do much better than this...
     
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  23. Snek

    Snek Well-Known Member

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    Everyone is probably just disappointed because they wanted this route to be the most amazing one so far and it's just average. But it's really not as horrible as they make it to be. Or rather, it's just like the other routes.
     
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  24. Analogue Anomaly

    Analogue Anomaly Member

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    Its an odd section of the route really - I think it should have either included the run out to Maidstone West, the actual fast section between ebsfleet and ashford or perhaps the rest of the coast route to ashford... As it is its a whole lot of tunnels and a handful of stops, not really the best of the HS1 service.
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  25. theorganist

    theorganist Well-Known Member

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    I thought it looked good, it isn't the finished article yet anyway. The only thing which stood out for me was the tunnel lighting but that isn't a new thing, it certainly won't stop me from enjoying it.
     
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  26. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Well, DLC should be getting better, and I think it's fair that we should expect better than average as time goes on, especially on something so anticipated, most people don't expect photographic replication, but if a route that DTG are based alongside, have made before, have large amounts of feedback from the route in TSXX, and on content from TSW, can come out sounding so poorly and looking so off, then what hope do we have of reasonable representation.

    Hopefully the 395 will get the sounds it deserves, but I fear the 375 is stuck the way it is for a while.
     
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  27. markhazeldine

    markhazeldine Well-Known Member

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    I've not done this route in real life (apart from on Eurostar), so can't comment on accuracy, but to me it looked and felt nice visually. I liked the Javelin cab and modelled systems (nice to see a working screen) and the working crossings and destination boards are nice touches. As others have said, it did feel disappointingly similar to other TSW2 routes in terms of the lack of life and other services on the line, but I don't really know what's realistic for that line, so maybe it's ok. I'll definitely get it, but I would hope they can do some further work on it after realise to add some more life and fix the things that people say are inaccurate.
     
  28. BR125

    BR125 Well-Known Member

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    Does anyone have a VOD of the stream? it was unwatchable for me due to buffering nonstop and dont really fancy waiting over the weekend
     
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  29. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    I’d like one too, I’d also like it if DTG refrained from streaming stuff like reveals on Steam, you can’t even rewind if you missed something, and the quality is poor.
     
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  30. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    Could we please stop this "but it isnt realistic and doesnt do that in real life" stuff.
    It would defently add gameplay to the Route.
    And its not like we want a electric highspeed train taking a diesel only freight branch to the middle of nowhere.
    Just a local commuter train on third rail continuing on third rail towards a station that is modeld and on the Route anyway.
    I mean they hopefully dont want to sell us a Thameslink DLC just for these Stations.
    Wikipedia also says Southeastern does peak hour services.
    And there are other thing in TSW that arent like in reallife just for the sake of Gameplay or easier implementation for DTG.
    So i dont think it would be bad if they added services from Strood/Rocherster to Gravesand with the 375/9 it only adds to the game for us players.
     
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  31. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    I'd honestly just want the real timetable, and the trains to stop where they actually stop IRL. I get what you're saying though.
     
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  32. Articuno

    Articuno Well-Known Member

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    The problem is, if they add those services now, later on if they want to make a Thameslink class 700 (and this is something many people want and suggest here), they won't be able to layer it onto this route, because they would have already put in the 375s, and they don't want to spend the time taking the 375s out and putting the class 700s into the timetable, as this takes a lot more time than you'd think. Also I think the majority of players want the locos to be doing their realistic services in their realistic formations.

    I agree there is always room for a bit of compromise for gameplay over realism, but DTG have to be careful with this.
     
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  33. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    It'll be uploaded to YouTube after the weekend.
     
  34. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    I mean adding services from Strood to Gravesend shouldnt hinder DTG implementig a real life oriented timetable for the rest.
    We probably won`t ever get a complete real timetable because no route will have all trains appart for exceptions like IOW.
    And its sad driving through this part of the route and all trains passing you in the opposite direction will just be other class 395`s
     
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  35. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    I think the section from Gravesend to Rainham is a bit short for an entire loco dlc.
    But who knows if they were to add that later i could understand the lack of services.
    But still atleast one peak hour services per direction should have been possible and this would still leave enough room for the Thameslink
     
  36. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Maybe it could be connected with a future Thameslink Route?
     
  37. Alexandreo3

    Alexandreo3 Active Member

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    it wouldn`t be the first suprise of this kind.
    But I thought their stance on extensions is a simple no.
    The last time when someone asked for extensions it was allways "too much hassle for making the things work separatly".
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
  38. Cameron's Gaming

    Cameron's Gaming Well-Known Member

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    There's no real point to doing a Thameslink DLC for this route, but I don't think there'd be much stopping them adding TL services as a layer from a route more appropriate.
     
  39. Yerolo

    Yerolo Well-Known Member

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    Unless someone was able to capture it and upload it to Youtube (which may be against rules anyway and get taken down)...you're going to have to wait for DTG to officially up it to their channel
     
  40. GrayDawg

    GrayDawg Well-Known Member

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    The route looked mostly fine to me part from a few things, and then again, it's still a work in progress. Tunnel lightning (come on, get this under control once and for all), a little empty here and there, but that's just about all that "bothered" me. Nothing new, nothing unexpected, no surprises there. To whoever thinks that any route, any DLC, released should be in every minute detail an exact copy of the real thing complete with a 100% accurate timetable, piece of fencing, correct placement of "everything" else, nothing missing, perfect sound, and so on and so fort, and if it is not, this entitle you to complain about it over, and over again. Well technically, I suppose it is your prerogative to do so, but yeah...

    To all of you, all I have to say is this - The only thing you will accomplish with this, is to set yourself up for some major disappointments, in just about every DLC that is ever going to be released in the future, and in doing so, robbing yourself of a whole heap of enjoyment for what is actually there, working, and pretty darn awesome at that. Things are progressing, getting better and better all the time. A little more of the glass is half full, than half empty, attitude would go a long way towards this. I mean, come no, this time around - better PIS, awesome new LED signals (I think they looked real spiffy myself), fully working level crossings. Much to be happy for in this release. Hakuna Matata!! ;)
     
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  41. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    The hype around this route (as per any new DLC) was big, I was quite interested and excited for it at the same time too.

    When the first development teasers were shown a few weeks ago it did show promise, sure there were some inaccuracies and all that but I let it slide.

    After around a week or two of waiting, we finally get new revealed screenshots (strangely on steam) of SEHS and at first glance it looked really good. But after closer inspection of the screenshots and a more detailed look it started to raise A LOT of questions.

    Of course a picture does tell a thousand words, but a trailer can also reveal a lot more. After watching the trailer for the first time I started to get VERY concerned.

    The FIRST thing that struck me was the unusually dull atmosphere. The route is set in the modern era and not in the 80s and pretty much everything looked way too washed out and dark. This has been an issue upon almost all of the routes, and whilst some manage the look of the lighting better, others don't *COUGH* "NTP" *COUGH*.

    The SECOND thing that stuck me the most (and this is one that I will never get my mind off) is why the ballast texture & colouring is used from the SAME route as TVL. For starters the HS1 section uses COMPLETELY the wrong ballast colour, it is definetly not a old section of the line, nor has the ballast been degraded to that sort of level. Did the DTG Development team take a step back and actually look at ANY reference materials online to check whether is was accurate or not? Because clearly not a single reference image was used to my understanding.

    The THIRD thing that really annoys me (and this affects pretty much the entire route) is how unbelieveably bland and boring the scenery is. I get that they used Autogen to help with the development of the routes and that's absolutely fine, but it CANNOT be used as an excuse to say that the route has been done properly because it simply hasn't. Another issue is the complete lack of any fencing along the route (especially on the HS1 section) and my question is what is the reason for them not being included, have they not bothered at all?

    I've gone back to the TS1 SEHS and the amount of foliage and trackside assets is sublime and represents the real life route very accurately.

    Now this will bring me onto the most important points and bare with me on this?

    1. How much time have DTG actually spent on developing this route?
    2. Why has more effort been put into the trackside stuff where there are working lamp gimmicks?
    3. Whos decided to focus mid-way through the development to place easter eggs along the route which could have been added in WAY later into its development which could have been instead focused on the actual scenery of the route
    4. Have the development team actually done any online reasearch to compensate for the inability to get real life references due to COVID restrictions?
    5. Why is the timetable based off of COVID and not for instance pre-COVID. Is this to remind us that this route takes place during a time where pratically nobody is using public transport etc?

    And lastly the most important question is this:
    6. How much do you think DTG will spend with the next two weeks they have to finish off the final few gubbins with SEHS, and will they make any final adjustments/improvements?

    In the short term, the stream left me with a lot of disappointments, frustrations & questions, but I want to remain hopeful that something will be done to make this a very good route and a very enjoyable route at that.

    I will look forward to seeing the next stream hopefully before the release date
     
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2021
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  42. LeadCatcher

    LeadCatcher Well-Known Member

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    Wow, another route preview stream and another thread on how terrible the route is...
    How predictable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  43. jeanmarc094

    jeanmarc094 Well-Known Member

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    they did say it was a reduced number??
     
  44. Crosstie

    Crosstie Well-Known Member

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    Reading the various anticipatory threads about this route in the last couple of weeks, you could sense the excitement rising to unrealistic levels, especially about what the route would contain. I'm sure the route is in line with what was promised, but the expectations were likely beyond that. Just my take.
     
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  45. ZeenozPlays

    ZeenozPlays Well-Known Member

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    Well, after seeing all of the criticism of the route, they may go back and fix the sounds, and they might add the fence. But honestly, I feel like they're gonna release it how it is right now, and claim that it is an authentic representation of the route, and ignore all of the inaccuracies.

    The fence next to the HS1 tracks and the lighting in the tunnels are the most important. They are things you would constantly see IRL and it's extremely noticeable that it is missing in-game.

    Also, what's going on with the sounds? I know they say that the sounds aren't finished, but I just don't believe that.

    1. Why show the route off if it isn't in a "Near-Release state"?
    2. Why would the sounds still not be there for the 395 when we are just 2 weeks away from Release?

    You have the 395 sounding like a Class 377, and when it comes down to the 375, they didn't even change/fix the sounds from the 377.
     
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2021
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  46. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    The sounds to be honest are the least of my concerns at the moment, lets focus on the route issues itself before starting to raise questions about the "authenticity" of the sounds they use.
     
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  47. CK95

    CK95 Well-Known Member

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    Personally I won't be buying any route that arrives with sounds as bad as these, we should not even need to be having this discussion with a route that is "finished bar polishing" the 395 sounds being left until now is a monumentally ridiculous decision, and the 375 using the same crappy sounds as the 377 is offensive considering the 375 is almost a clone of the 377, there should of been lots of time available to resolving that issue, especially considering the sound team apparently has not done much with the 395.
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2021
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  48. SprattyHeath

    SprattyHeath Well-Known Member

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    The issue with the sound quality is expected from DTG, they've never sorted it out and probably wont.
     
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  49. L89

    L89 Well-Known Member

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    Yes, it was said it won't be a full timetable. It will be busier during peak times but the service they did was like 10 AM.

    Next stream before the release I would say do a peak time service (summer so it won't be too dark).
     
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  50. solicitr

    solicitr Well-Known Member

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    IMO, the lighting of NTP is absolutely perfect for the setting. British Rail in the Seventies in Lancashire and Yorkshire? Of course everything is drab, gray, grimy and depressing!
     
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